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When will the basic attack requirement be removed?
All that the basic attack requirement does is hinder perks. Any killer who has a legitimate M2 power (Hillbilly, Demo, Oni, Huntress, Blight, etc.) can't use these perks effectively. With the perk Blood Favor it used to be when you injure a survivor and because of that the perk was still bad but at least fun to use. Now it has the basic attack requirement, meaning only M1 killers can use it. So if you Demo shred, Billy curve, Feral Slash, or anything then it's useless. Many of these perks already have cooldowns, so that's another nail in the coffin and also disproves the thought of them being too oppressive. I just can't understand why the devs WILLINGLY limit the perk pool in an already stale meta.
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I don't think it's something that's going to be changed. Otherwise all other perks would have to be adjusted to maintain consistency - and things like NOED on a pigs dash, Huntress hatchet etc is going to be way too strong imo.
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This requirement will stay. There are things we don't want, like someone going into dying state due to a Bear Trap with Honing Stone triggering stuff like Surge. The alternative to the basic attack requirement is making exceptions. For example we could say Surge works for Demo Shred, but not Trapper BT/HS. Now every time we add a new Killer, we potentially have to through and update every perk with these exceptions. It's just not a maintainable design with the vast amount of perk/addon/power combinations available.
Since every Killer can basic attack, we can create the perk, and know exactly how it works with every Killer without having to check a ton of different interactions. If this means some perks don't work well given some Killers' powers, then that's just the way of it. Not every perk is exactly as useful on one Killer as it is on the others. Learning to choose your perks well to synergize with your chosen Killer is one of the important skills in DbD.
I have heard it said that this answer means we're "lazy"... that we're not willing to "do things that take work". Whole programming languages and paradigms have been based around preventing the same thing in code as we're trying to prevent in design with this strategy. You don't want a ball of yarn of a design where tugging on any little thing pulls a whole ton of others.
In a game as complex as DbD, there will necessarily be some of that. But minimizing it through smart design is still a worthwhile endeavor.
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But what makes stuff like Honing Stone triggering Surge so bad? Why do you not want stuff like Honing Stone or a deep wounds down to activate Surge?
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But why not make exceptions for perks like Surge? They're already not very good and have tons of requirements but making it so if you play the killer effectively you can't use a perk just seems more problematic than a few scenarios such as honing stone Trapper. NOED and Stbfl are some I understand the need for, since an instadown feral frenzy Legion would be dumb. But for the others it seems like an unnecessary hinderance. One of the biggest complaints people have with the game is the fact that most perks are useless due to too many requirements and too much situational reliance. This one feature being removed would be a huge buff across the sea of bad perks.
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without knowing the code in it's as is state I can only speak from design method rather than direct knowledge, but I feel like something like this would be possible by setting flags on the killer powers rather than an exception list on the perks. A generic "ProcsM1Perk=1" on the power then check for that value when a possible proc condition is met. Might even be able to apply that logic to give killers add ons that allow M1 perks on their power, thus extending add on options.
Not really advocating the idea, just spitballing a thought
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I could see a a reasonable exception being “any attack that uses the killer’s main weapon” or “any attack that is in direct contact with the killer”.
This wording would both effectively exclude concerns like bear traps, vile purge, hatchets, harpoons, etc, but still allow the ones that make sense like feral frenzy, pig’s ambush, and such.
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Fair, some things would just be broken with all the stacking and crap, but just do it on a case by case basis with a bit of common sense, your example of Surge I find particularly ... silly, frankly speaking, it would not be broken at all, the perk would still see little use.
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And Honing Stone triggering Surge is... bad? I really don't see how that would be super powerful. Hell, Hex: Blood Favor was already garbage, but it was at least interesting because it was one of the few perks left that required hitting survivors but not restricted to M1 attacks. Now it's garbage, never to be seen except for Adept Blight. It's not even good for meme builds.
Or something like Gearhead. Interesting idea for a perk (that didn't need nerfs, like come on guys) but completely useless because M1 Killers need other perks to even compete with non-M1 killers. Knock Out was honestly a perfectly valid perk, but now it's so restrictive and borderline useless. Save The Best For Last is the only M1 specific perk that actually makes sense.
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If this is the case, can you please remove the cd on surge? It's very underwhelming with its 40 sec cd and downs don't even come that often. It would take 3 downs to equal one Pop Goes the Weasel. You can argue that surge can affect multiple gens but it can also affect NO gens if there aren't any gens in the area. It's currently not good enough in its current state.
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victor with noed
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But Honing stone triggers ones like infectious? Even locker pulls triggers that.
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Don't even mention it's name, or they will realize that it works with special attacks and nerf it.
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I mean IF was just basic attacks only then they buffed it (like properly, in the patch notes and everything)
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just do it the other way around where you blacklist effects rather than whitelist them, that reverses the workload
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I don't see any problems with that on surge,considering we have still the range restriction of 32m AND a cooldown of 40 seconds.
EDIT:Plus it's just 8% regression which is about 6.4 seconds of lost progress as a single survivor
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That's true, but for the sake of "consistency" with other perks I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed it again...
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I wish the perks that mention basic attacks were more clear about what kinds of attacks trigger the perks.
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We can get a dev reply on this? ON THIS?!
Come on, people have been begging for updates on nurse bugs for literally years; wanting to know if there will be a hotfix at least within the next week for some of the new update issues, and just in general posing questions about some of the most resounding issues across matchmaker, queue times, and other highly concerning subjects...... not even one single word- but this gets like a 3 paragraph response?
Sigh..... okay, sure then.....whatever at this point I just I give up......I'm not even mad I am just depressed about it at this point....
The game at its core was pretty much built around it being that way. The amount of overhaul that would be required, the balance of the game and everything would have to be re-done from the ground up; and all to expand on play options which honestly can be expanded on by other means without flipping the entire game on it's head.
I get where you are coming from, and while that can't really be done, there are alternatives such as making so many of the perks in the game that are basically worthless, have some actual value in use. However new perks keep being added; while old ones remain as they are. I think that would be a better target for improving the "Stale meta" situation, at least that is how I feel.
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I'll be the one who won't tag almo, and say that I agree with him. The game doesn't really need a huntress that can have haunted, franklins and sloppy on her hatchets. Even tho, I'll say that there should be some exceptions. For example I think shred should activate everything except exposed effects, same with pigs m2. But adding these would make stbfl really weak.
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I think most people would agree that exposed effects shouldn’t work on powers, or you’d get some really wacky stuff like Legion downing everyone with one use of Frenzy.
But perks like Surge or Blood Favour? They already have cooldowns and other limitations built in anyway, so it’s not like you could down three survivors back to back with hatchets and keep regressing the same gen over and over. That’s surely the point of the cooldown, to limit the perk’s power - so then why does it only work with M1s? It wouldn’t be any stronger on a killer that downs with their power than it is on an M1 killer because its power level is already hard capped by its many other requirements.
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OP: "When will this stuff get changed?"
Dev: Well-explained reply about why this logic is intentional, with plenty of discussion about how changing it would break the game.
Everyone: "I don't like that, and I insistently don't understand how any of this works! Change it!"
Sheesh, and you wonder why devs rarely post here. I'm not saying not to hold Behaviour's feet to the fire when it comes to things like the botched release of the Twins DLC... but if you're going to attack them on every well-considered point, especially related to issues as benign and strongly defined as the one being discussed here, why on earth would you expect them to engage on these forums more consistently?
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I understand the problem with blink deadzones,but there are other bugs that should have been fixed already.
Like not being able to attack after blinking,or your lunge range getting reduced to pretty much zero sometimes after blinking
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pig's dash is just a worse version of wraith uncloak and wraith can use noed with it thats a weak arguement
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The basic attack requirement makes sense on most perks (e.g exposed status effect,franklins stbfl),but there are perks like surge that already have more than enough restrictions (32m range + 40 seconds cooldown) to make sure it's not too overwhelming.Adding a basic attack requirement on top of that is overkill
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I don't mind basic attack requirements on some perks. I just don't think that most of the perks are good enough despite the requirements.
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I'd give them more credit in that regard if they didn't also release Blight and Deathslinger.
Both of them require maps to have good Hitboxes/terrain for them to work properly.
Its becoming increasingly harder to justify developer's inaction with the nurse's needs given that they are increasingly releasing killers who also have those needs.
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Thanks for some thorough insight on this.
I’ve also thought it was a fairness thing as well. For example, why should Billy have two ways to activate Surge, whereas Clown simply only has the one way? Why should Billy, Demo, Bubba, etc etc get additional advantage from such perks?
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Fairness in this context sounds weird.
Why shouldn't you design perks that would work on a lot of killers and possibly offer alternatives for different playstyles?
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Not the same thing. You're talking about exposed, which is a basic attack status effect. I believe the OP is talking about specific perks requiring basic attacks to trigger - such as Surge and Blood Favor. They specifically state that basic attacks are required, not that they apply a basic attack status effect.
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Does this mean perks like Surge will never see changes? Right now the basic attack requirement lowers perk build variety on a lot of killers.
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For what it's worth, Play With Your Food is designed to trigger off performing a, and I quote, "a basic attack or Special Attack." So in theory, could some of those perks that are restricted to basic attack only not simply just adopt the same condition as Play With Your Food?
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I mean, isn't that just how game coding and balance as a whole works? Isn't it always going to be "((13%2)+1)/2+(5-(2*2)) = 2" in the end? Whenever something is implemented, added, etc., it's always always always going to require comprehensive analysis against the rest of the whole game.
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@Almo so that means that surge+honing stone must be an overbearing combination by that logic. The adding of basic attacks on to most of newer perks only further impairs perk from being effective and give another reason for them to be dead on rival. To me, it just feels like an attempt to make perks worse than they already are. a great example is comparing new knock out to old knock out. Old knockout had no basic attack requirement. New knockout does thus makes the perk worse as it activates less and has less application than it did before.
The other basic attacks perks that I can remember on the top of my head are like Surge, Hex:Blood flavor, Hex:Third seal, Dark Devotion, Gearhead and I think Franklin Demise, None of those seem like they would be game breaking if they interacted with killer powers.
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I'm going to be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. This sounds like it's a matter of efficiency, but I don't think what I'm suggesting is...well, not efficient, considering that we already have a perk that supposedly works the way I'm asking. I don't think it becomes overly complex if we adopt that model that is already used for one perk for a few other currently established perks that can get away with being buffed in that way.
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So the short answer is "it's better for a perk to be absolutely terrible because it has too many conditions to ever be worth using, than risk the meta being even slightly not stale by seeing how it plays out with fair restrictions."
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I am 100% of the belief that Surge should have both its trigger condition relaxed to include non-basic attacks AND lose the cooldown, so I don't agree with your reasoning there.
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Why not go with "melee attack"? That would make it proc on more killers without creating the scenario you're trying to avoid.
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I don't like Hex perks period, so I'm the wrong person to ask about that.
I believe that those changes to Surge would make it good, not OP.
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Dude could you imagine NOED on Legion? The basic attack requirement is what's keeping the game from not being a broken mess.
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I mean, you could easily just keep the Exposed Status effect to only work on basic attacks anyways. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.
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I don't really see it that way. In the ABSOLUTE best case scenario, I think it would only be comparable to Pop (maybe slightly better if you factor in the time it takes to find a kick a gen when you get Pop).
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Then it becomes a whole new thing they would have to balance around. Surge would most likely receive a compensation nerf due to how good it could be. STBFL on Legion would be good too. They could use it with their power earlier, but with a stronger power than before it'll be a no brainer to run.
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Personally, I'd rather Surge be terror radius based and activate on a down like Infectious Fright. Makes it a better perk on more Killers without worrying about that Trapper scenario
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I dunno, I don't think "another balance thing to think of" is a bad thing. And STBFL could be one of the perks that stays as-is. Surge I think can be safely changed.
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Sounds more like a problem with The Game than anything.
When I say "best-case scenario," I'm talking borderline Magical Christmas Land where you are completely bulldozing a team of potatoes left and right. In the average case scenario, it would still be much worse than Pop.
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What I took from that is that they're being lazy, and taking a political approach by smooth talking you into not thinking they're lazy lol.
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Because you have to put in a lot more work just to make it comparable to Pop.
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You cannot ignore the benefits of M1 perks. Save the best for Last is widely used on Demo bc you can shred the obsession without losing stacks and would be oppressive if killers could M2 for stacks. IMO leave as is, it's only natural that some killers get more benefits from some perks than others, as long as they are viable.
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It takes less work to trigger once vs Pop, but in order to bring it up to Pop levels, you'd need to down 3 people in rapid succession in roughly the same area (hitting the same three gens three times). It requires a lot of things to go right.
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Those things you described are just how Surge works in general. You don't need the cooldown to be removed to do that. The only thing removing the cooldown would enable is what I mentioned above, which, as I said before, is borderline Magical Christmas Land. I support removing the cooldown.
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