This event and the secondary objective.
this is a perfect test plate to adding a secondary objective to the game. if they was to have something like this every game even when a event was not going on but instead make it so there is four plants and each plant gives survivors a blood point boost of 25% at the end of the match it would do what is needed to extend the game out a little longer to help balance out the game. props on the event and the way it was done I hope this is the type of secondary objective mechanic that you guys intend to add to help increase game times in normal game play.
Comments
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I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.
While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
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@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collected before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
all I see is survivors crying because people are farming nectar first. I am a survivor main and yes people are trying to rush to get there blight cosmetics. but if you wait till later in this event when not so many are rushing to get the nectar you will see a far more balanced out match. this is exactly what they need to put in for a secondary objective. make it so four plants all give a 25% bloodpoint boost . in normal matches not in an event people will do a mix of gens and plants when they see them. or do the plants after the gates are powered. mind you it wouldn't be required to escape it would only offer enough incentive to grab them when you see them. so again i still say its the perfect mechanic for a secondary objective.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collected before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
all I see is survivors crying because people are farming nectar first. I am a survivor main and yes people are trying to rush to get there blight cosmetics. but if you wait till later in this event when not so many are rushing to get the nectar you will see a far more balanced out match. this is exactly what they need to put in for a secondary objective. make it so four plants all give a 25% bloodpoint boost . in normal matches not in an event people will do a mix of gens and plants when they see them. or do the plants after the gates are powered. mind you it wouldn't be required to escape it would only offer enough incentive to grab them when you see them. so again i still say its the perfect mechanic for a secondary objective.
And again, I disagree. I did game design for 12 years and have seen what players will do. At first, a secondary objective like in Blight might very well slow the game down, but it will not last once the initial new-factor wears off. Not even for BP. Especially when the game already offers several Perks and Offerings that boost BP awards.
And then it becomes ignored, and turns out to be an overall waste of resources.
The secondary objectives have to tie into the generators somehow, if they are going to be used as anything except an event gimmick. Otherwise, it will not fix the gen-rushing issue over the long term.
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again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match. and if offerings and perks also stacked with this boost yea not a single survivor would pass it up.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match.The issue is, there are already Perks and Offerings that boost BP. There are already reasons to ignore the secondary objective when they become too problematic for the Survivors. At that stage, a BP bonus isn't going to matter. They'll ignore the secondary objective to gen-rush and escape, which is what too many consider the requirement for a "win."
The secondary objectives need to be tied into the generators. They need to be so they cannot be ignored, no matter what.
If you think that Survivors won't ignore a secondary objective if they can, BP or not, once they feel it becomes to problematic for them in relation to surviving, you don't understand the average player base.
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Silly idea. Add a chain or something that's in the floor, kinda like the hatch but a little smaller with black fluid to symbolize the entire stuff so won't look too off. You have to activate these things too, no skill checks but totem like, takes time but no skill checks and resets it If you leave.
You can do it whenever you want but these things spawns every time a gen is repaired, so you have to do 5 of em. To track then, like the hatch add a sound, different from the hatch possibly. Would take like 30s to do on of em and you can decide when do that. After a gen or after all gens are powered.
You must do these things in order to make the gates be powered. Lore wise the entire would prevent the power to go to the gates that's why you do this.
I don't know, I thought this while reading you guys in 2 min so it might as well have a lot of flaws but still an idea2 -
@EqMonkVeeshan said:
again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match. and if offerings and perks also stacked with this boost yea not a single survivor would pass it up.You must have failed econ, as there is no way in hell they would allow a +100% BP bonus across the board, unless of course, they dropped the current BP to 50% of what it currently is. Either that, or they double the cost of the items on the BloodWeb. This whole event has proved that it won’t work as long as it is an incentive.
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@Kilmeran said:
@EqMonkVeeshan said:
again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match.The issue is, there are already Perks and Offerings that boost BP. There are already reasons to ignore the secondary objective when they become too problematic for the Survivors. At that stage, a BP bonus isn't going to matter. They'll ignore the secondary objective to gen-rush and escape, which is what too many consider the requirement for a "win."
The secondary objectives need to be tied into the generators. They need to be so they cannot be ignored, no matter what.
If you think that Survivors won't ignore a secondary objective if they can, BP or not, once they feel it becomes to problematic for them in relation to surviving, you don't understand the average player base.
if they are getting destroyed they would skip it yes of course who wouldn't but if the killer is already destroying them. then the match is already over. the secondary objective should not be a requirement to escape it should be something that gives proper incentive to extend the match out longer and optional but the risk versus reward has to be there.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
@Kilmeran said:
@EqMonkVeeshan said:
again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match.The issue is, there are already Perks and Offerings that boost BP. There are already reasons to ignore the secondary objective when they become too problematic for the Survivors. At that stage, a BP bonus isn't going to matter. They'll ignore the secondary objective to gen-rush and escape, which is what too many consider the requirement for a "win."
The secondary objectives need to be tied into the generators. They need to be so they cannot be ignored, no matter what.
If you think that Survivors won't ignore a secondary objective if they can, BP or not, once they feel it becomes to problematic for them in relation to surviving, you don't understand the average player base.
if they are getting destroyed they would skip it yes of course who wouldn't but if the killer is already destroying them. then the match is already over. the secondary objective should not be a requirement to escape it should be something that gives proper incentive to extend the match out longer and optional but the risk versus reward has to be there.
You must be playing with a vastly different player base than the rest of us.
Hell, cleansing totems is a secondary objective and even grants BP, and they are largely ignored unless the killer is running a Hex perk. Sabotaging a hook is a secondary objective and can even benefit the survivor team, and is largely ignored. Neither is tied into the main objective of the game, the generators, and does nothing to alleviate the gen-rushing problem.
If you make it a secondary objective that can be ignored, then they damn well will ignore it in favor of gen-rushing and escaping. They already have two secondary objectives and largely ignore them. It just remained: Loop the killer, waste their time, pop the generators, escape.
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The thing about this as a secondary objective is: it's optional.
While yes, everyone's going to be fighting over them right now, once people start to finish the event they'll have no use for them. They could completely ignore them and just do generators. A bloodpoint boost would be more or less the same. A group with thousands of hours in the game and all perks unlocked have no need for bloodpoints most of the time, so that side objective is negligible. These are the kinds of players an additional objective is supposed to accommodate, not the new guys who are just scraping together as many bloodpoints as they can.
For a side objective to work effectively, it needs to be integral to the game (i.e. You cannot win without doing it). This event- having just launched- shows more or less how that would have an effect on the outcome of a game, but if it were to be a permanent addition, it would need to be something that everyone needs to do, not just an optional thing in case you want extra stuff.
I just finished playing a bunch of killer games without farming the event and I kinda' like what I see. Good players can still run around and waste time, but by the time things really get going, you've got a bunch of pallets down and there's probably someone on the hook. It does seem to be a little more unfair to average and below survivors. Though I wouldn't be opposed to seeing rank mean more and start to more accurately reflect skill level.
TL;DR, that would still be a little too optional. I think a side objective like this (but not optional) is great against good survivors who know how to kill time, but I feel like it would be a little too punishing on new players were it a full time thing.
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if you think cleansing totems for a measly 650 bloodpoints each and 1000 for a hex is worth it and saboing hooks for 500 is worth while secondary objectives you clearly do not understand the concept of risk versus reward. more so the reward aspect of it. it also makes me understand why you "did" game design for twelve years and no longer appear to be doing it.
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@Peanits said: Though I wouldn't be opposed to seeing rank mean more and start to more accurately reflect skill level.
That, right there, is the crux of the problem with a huge part of this game. I'm a new player, and already see how easy it is to Pip as Survivor. I will be Rank 15 before I even have enough Perks unlocked to be remotely viable as a new player.
Yet, I will then be in the ranks where the vets are deranking because they don't like the Red Ranks.
It's why I just shoved DBD to a side game that I might play every once in a while. Though I own all the current DLCs, I won't be rushing to buy the one in December or any in 2019. At least, not until BHVR does something about this excuse for a Rank system and makes it not only equate to skill, but also prevents the Vets from deranking like they are.
As a new player already having to do the BP grind for Perks (especially the needed Teachable Perks across different characters), but also play the RNG bloodweb, hitting Rank 15+ and getting stomped by deranked Vets while doing so . . . no thank you.
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@Kilmeran said:
@Peanits said: Though I wouldn't be opposed to seeing rank mean more and start to more accurately reflect skill level.
That, right there, is the crux of the problem with a huge part of this game. I'm a new player, and already see how easy it is to Pip as Survivor. I will be Rank 15 before I even have enough Perks unlocked to be remotely viable as a new player.
Yet, I will then be in the ranks where the vets are deranking because they don't like the Red Ranks.
It's why I just shoved DBD to a side game that I might play every once in a while. Though I own all the current DLCs, I won't be rushing to buy the one in December or any in 2019. At least, not until BHVR does something about this excuse for a Rank system and makes it not only equate to skill, but also prevents the Vets from deranking like they are.
As a new player already having to do the BP grind for Perks (especially the needed Teachable Perks across different characters), but also play the RNG bloodweb, hitting Rank 15+ and getting stomped by deranked Vets while doing so . . . no thank you.
Regarding at least the deranking part, doing so is almost definitely going to land them in a DC ban wave. The penalties for excessive disconnecting were just massively increased (from 1d > 2d > 1w > permanent to 1w > 2w > 4w > permanent). So you should see much less deranking going forward.
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This would just result in killers camping that thing. What I think would be a good idea is if we have things similar to the plant around the level, think of them an entity boxes. These boxes have parts that survivors need to do a gen. Once they get this part and interact with the gen, that gen can now be repaired by all survivors and the part is consumed by the gen. Once all gens have a part then the entity prevents survivors from interacting with the boxes and regular game play goes on from here. I was thinking between 7 and 9 boxes would spawn a match they would give a decent amount of bp and killers can't see the boxes arua. This would also be a cool buff to the bnp since they could be used instead of a regular part.Malakir said:Silly idea. Add a chain or something that's in the floor, kinda like the hatch but a little smaller with black fluid to symbolize the entire stuff so won't look too off. You have to activate these things too, no skill checks but totem like, takes time but no skill checks and resets it If you leave.
You can do it whenever you want but these things spawns every time a gen is repaired, so you have to do 5 of em. To track then, like the hatch add a sound, different from the hatch possibly. Would take like 30s to do on of em and you can decide when do that. After a gen or after all gens are powered.
You must do these things in order to make the gates be powered. Lore wise the entire would prevent the power to go to the gates that's why you do this.
I don't know, I thought this while reading you guys in 2 min so it might as well have a lot of flaws but still an idea
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@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
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Withdrawn. Person no longer worth my time or effort
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@Peanits said:
@Kilmeran said:
@Peanits said: Though I wouldn't be opposed to seeing rank mean more and start to more accurately reflect skill level.
That, right there, is the crux of the problem with a huge part of this game. I'm a new player, and already see how easy it is to Pip as Survivor. I will be Rank 15 before I even have enough Perks unlocked to be remotely viable as a new player.
Yet, I will then be in the ranks where the vets are deranking because they don't like the Red Ranks.
It's why I just shoved DBD to a side game that I might play every once in a while. Though I own all the current DLCs, I won't be rushing to buy the one in December or any in 2019. At least, not until BHVR does something about this excuse for a Rank system and makes it not only equate to skill, but also prevents the Vets from deranking like they are.
As a new player already having to do the BP grind for Perks (especially the needed Teachable Perks across different characters), but also play the RNG bloodweb, hitting Rank 15+ and getting stomped by deranked Vets while doing so . . . no thank you.
Regarding at least the deranking part, doing so is almost definitely going to land them in a DC ban wave. The penalties for excessive disconnecting were just massively increased (from 1d > 2d > 1w > permanent to 1w > 2w > 4w > permanent). So you should see much less deranking going forward.
That is not the only way they derank. You seem to be hooked on that talking point even in other threads. But the DC ban catches those who derank by disconnecting. There are many who never disconnect and derank on purpose. Hell, there are even enough streamers out there doing it and showing everyone else that views them how to do it.
It is very easy to derank by entering the match, letting the killer hook you by making sure he nails you, and killing yourself on the hook.
Loss of Pip, no disconnect involved. I.e. throwing the match. Which they do with absolute impunity.
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@Peanits said:
TL;DR, that would still be a little too optional. I think a side objective like this (but not optional) is great against good survivors who know how to kill time, but I feel like it would be a little too punishing on new players were it a full time thing.A.k.a Pig's beartraps, it just only applies to her.
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@Peanits said:
Regarding at least the deranking part, doing so is almost definitely going to land them in a DC ban wave. The penalties for excessive disconnecting were just massively increased (from 1d > 2d > 1w > permanent to 1w > 2w > 4w > permanent). So you should see much less deranking going forward.As I stated in another thread, they don’t need to DC to depip with this event. The event itself is allowing everyone to depip very easily, as no one starts any objectives until it’s too late. No gens get done, everyone gets hooked, and is dead. The games are so fast that I wonder if the killer is even pipping.
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@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
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@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
You're right; I agree with you there.
But what if it was limited to 1/2 with no offerings to effect them, similar to totems? Would make it not an entirely-focused objective and would reduce the chances of that situation happening. I mean, it'd be no different from cleansing a totem for BP or saboing a hook. Just a different effect in attempts to slow the game down just that much more. Sabo buffs didn't really help.. Atleast the healing nerf has.
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Secondary objectives should continue to be optional. When completed they should: 1. Help towards the primary objective somehow, 2. Be worth a good chunk of extra BP, 3. Take a bit of time to complete.
From off the top of my head there could be motion activated spotlights though out the map, particularly around generators and exit gates, that really illuminate the area. Killers will not be able to trigger these. They will activate when survivors walk, run, crouch or crawl past a certain activation cone in front of them. When activated they make a distinct noise that scares nearby crows away (indirect buff to Spies?).
Survivors will be able to dismantle them from behind. It will take a bit of time and be a little noisy. Up to two survivors can do it together and it will be a bit faster and quieter. You get 1000 BP for dismantling one and it'll go toward Survival.
Weaker perks could then be buffed around this mechanic. Sabotage maybe increases the speed of dismantling. Technician makes dismantling silent. Resilient and This Is Not Happening could activate when you perform actions within the spotlight even while healthy, and maybe increase the values a bit while in the spotlight AND injured. Lightweight could make it so you can walk, crouch and crawl past spotlights without activating them (but not sprint).
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Oh and weaker killer perks could maybe do things like increase the cone of activation, make dismantling take longer, give a notification when a spotlight is activated, etc.0
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@Brady said:
@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
You're right; I agree with you there.
But what if it was limited to 1/2 with no offerings to effect them, similar to totems? Would make it not an entirely-focused objective and would reduce the chances of that situation happening. I mean, it'd be no different from cleansing a totem for BP or saboing a hook. Just a different effect in attempts to slow the game down just that much more. Sabo buffs didn't really help.. Atleast the healing nerf has.
That's the catch-22. If it's optional and it doesn't take that much time to do (like a totem), it has next to no impact on gameplay, and so the point of a secondary objective to slow down games is lost. But if it's optional and does take a noteworthy amount of time, the people who don't care about them are going to be upset when they lose because of it.
I feel like if there were going to be a secondary objective, it should be crucial to the match you're playing in, not something external. That way everyone has a mutual interest in getting the objectives done and nobody feels like they're losing just because everyone's playing for different reasons.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a "you can't work on generators until this is done" type deal either, it could also have an effect elsewhere. For example, there could be a bunch of Entity thingys around the map. For each one standing, the Entity has more power in the match. Destroying one will weaken its presence. They could do stuff like making window blockers appear after fewer vaults, or locking out some pallets until the Entity is weakened. (Sorry Dave, I'm probably butchering the lore here.) Sure, you could ignore them and hope you don't get chased, but you would probably want to get rid of them just in case. The more survivors alive the better your chances, after all.
But the root of the problem will always be whether or not it's optional. So long as it is, it's bound to fail.
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TBH i think the best way to fix it is to have secondary objectives that encourage moving around instead holding M1 elsewhere. The easiest thing would be collecting gas cans to fuel generators. For lore we could say that the Entity just got to lazy to fill them itself.Peanits said:@Brady said:
@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
You're right; I agree with you there.
But what if it was limited to 1/2 with no offerings to effect them, similar to totems? Would make it not an entirely-focused objective and would reduce the chances of that situation happening. I mean, it'd be no different from cleansing a totem for BP or saboing a hook. Just a different effect in attempts to slow the game down just that much more. Sabo buffs didn't really help.. Atleast the healing nerf has.
That's the catch-22. If it's optional and it doesn't take that much time to do (like a totem), it has next to no impact on gameplay, and so the point of a secondary objective to slow down games is lost. But if it's optional and does take a noteworthy amount of time, the people who don't care about them are going to be upset when they lose because of it.
I feel like if there were going to be a secondary objective, it should be crucial to the match you're playing in, not something external. That way everyone has a mutual interest in getting the objectives done and nobody feels like they're losing just because everyone's playing for different reasons.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a "you can't work on generators until this is done" type deal either, it could also have an effect elsewhere. For example, there could be a bunch of Entity thingys around the map. For each one standing, the Entity has more power in the match. Destroying one will weaken its presence. They could do stuff like making window blockers appear after fewer vaults, or locking out some pallets until the Entity is weakened. (Sorry Dave, I'm probably butchering the lore here.) Sure, you could ignore them and hope you don't get chased, but you would probably want to get rid of them just in case. The more survivors alive the better your chances, after all.
But the root of the problem will always be whether or not it's optional. So long as it is, it's bound to fail.
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@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
You're right; I agree with you there.
But what if it was limited to 1/2 with no offerings to effect them, similar to totems? Would make it not an entirely-focused objective and would reduce the chances of that situation happening. I mean, it'd be no different from cleansing a totem for BP or saboing a hook. Just a different effect in attempts to slow the game down just that much more. Sabo buffs didn't really help.. Atleast the healing nerf has.
That's the catch-22. If it's optional and it doesn't take that much time to do (like a totem), it has next to no impact on gameplay, and so the point of a secondary objective to slow down games is lost. But if it's optional and does take a noteworthy amount of time, the people who don't care about them are going to be upset when they lose because of it.
I feel like if there were going to be a secondary objective, it should be crucial to the match you're playing in, not something external. That way everyone has a mutual interest in getting the objectives done and nobody feels like they're losing just because everyone's playing for different reasons.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a "you can't work on generators until this is done" type deal either, it could also have an effect elsewhere. For example, there could be a bunch of Entity thingys around the map. For each one standing, the Entity has more power in the match. Destroying one will weaken its presence. They could do stuff like making window blockers appear after fewer vaults, or locking out some pallets until the Entity is weakened. (Sorry Dave, I'm probably butchering the lore here.) Sure, you could ignore them and hope you don't get chased, but you would probably want to get rid of them just in case. The more survivors alive the better your chances, after all.
But the root of the problem will always be whether or not it's optional. So long as it is, it's bound to fail.
see but that is the problem with the game. the game was designed around not being able to communicate and for the survivors to think individually for them selves. as a survivor you can decide to go for a save or not to its up to you. greed is the best way to add that aspect back in to the game even among SWF groups. you make it sound like its a bad thing for people to be frustrated because some one else elected to do something else and make a choice for their own benefit. honestly its why I enjoy doing solo ques at times just to get back to that uncertainty if the others will make that save or not.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Peanits said:
@Brady said:
@Kilmeran said:
I disagree. From a lot of posts I am seeing here and at other sites in regards to how the secondary objectives are done for Blight, this is exactly what not to do.While the game does need secondary objectives to slow down the gen-rushing, it needs secondary objectives that actually tie into the main objective. As some have repeatedly suggested, maybe first needing parts to collect before a generator can be repaired, or maybe fuel before it can be powered up.
Any secondary objective should absolutely tie into the main objective of the generators, otherwise you'll eventually find the secondary objective being ignored, regardless of any suggested BP bonus, in exchange for gen-rushing and escaping.
Secondary objectives have to be balanced around the primary objective, and in such a way that they cannot be ignored. Otherwise, they ultimately become a waste of development resources, and do nothing to fix the problem that is causing the need for secondary objectives in the first place: gen-rushing.
But...
It'd be cool if they kept it like it is now. Harvest these plants for skins.
It'd be super cool to have a secordary objective implemented in the game identical to this event where instead of earning viles, you earn shards. Obviously it would be themed to suit the feeling of shards and not serum, but you get the jist.
I'd so make it an objective if I could get a mass amount of shards in trade of gen time. Afterall, Killer is all about time management, and it'd be nice.
To play Devil's Advocate for a second, say you're you. You enjoy playing survivor. You have some nice skins already that you either bought, earned through an event, or earned through shards. You have no interest in unlocking other skins and you just want to play the game.
But then comes along the other three survivors. They want to unlock those skins, and they're willing to put the objective on the backburner to do so. So now you're left doing generators all by yourself as the other three roaming around the map just to unlock skins. You end up losing because you can't carry that hard.
Now you could either be a super positive guy and be a good sport about it, or more realistically, you'd probably be frustrated that you lost because everyone else is running around being greedy and not helping with the objective.
That's the issue I'd have with it. If it's totally unrelated to the current match, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to the people who don't care about it and just want to play the game. It's one thing when it's an event and you can go, "Oh well, we all want to unlock free stuff while we can," but it's another thing when that's just part of the base game.
You're right; I agree with you there.
But what if it was limited to 1/2 with no offerings to effect them, similar to totems? Would make it not an entirely-focused objective and would reduce the chances of that situation happening. I mean, it'd be no different from cleansing a totem for BP or saboing a hook. Just a different effect in attempts to slow the game down just that much more. Sabo buffs didn't really help.. Atleast the healing nerf has.
That's the catch-22. If it's optional and it doesn't take that much time to do (like a totem), it has next to no impact on gameplay, and so the point of a secondary objective to slow down games is lost. But if it's optional and does take a noteworthy amount of time, the people who don't care about them are going to be upset when they lose because of it.
I feel like if there were going to be a secondary objective, it should be crucial to the match you're playing in, not something external. That way everyone has a mutual interest in getting the objectives done and nobody feels like they're losing just because everyone's playing for different reasons.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a "you can't work on generators until this is done" type deal either, it could also have an effect elsewhere. For example, there could be a bunch of Entity thingys around the map. For each one standing, the Entity has more power in the match. Destroying one will weaken its presence. They could do stuff like making window blockers appear after fewer vaults, or locking out some pallets until the Entity is weakened. (Sorry Dave, I'm probably butchering the lore here.) Sure, you could ignore them and hope you don't get chased, but you would probably want to get rid of them just in case. The more survivors alive the better your chances, after all.
But the root of the problem will always be whether or not it's optional. So long as it is, it's bound to fail.
see but that is the problem with the game. the game was designed around not being able to communicate and for the survivors to think individually for them selves. as a survivor you can decide to go for a save or not to its up to you. greed is the best way to add that aspect back in to the game even among SWF groups. you make it sound like its a bad thing for people to be frustrated because some one else elected to do something else and make a choice for their own benefit.
I would say it's a little different.
To give one example, you're hooked, one other survivor is left. They don't save you because they found the hatch and they want to escape. Okay, fair game, they're doing that because they want to win.
But now say you're hooked and there's three people left. None of them come to save you because one guy is doing a generator, one guy is milking a plant for bonus points, and the third guy is playing Monopoly. You're not losing because they're trying to win, you're losing because they're not trying to win (except for generator guy, he's the real MVP).
The key difference is when it comes down to that person winning. If someone does me dirty so they can better their chances at winning, I'm not exactly going to be thrilled, but I can understand that. If someone decides to be an anchor and drag down everyone else because they want some optional extra and they don't care about winning, that would leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I feel like everyone should have a common goal, that being surviving. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone surviving, but I feel like everyone should want to do the same thing to save at least themselves. Not having a common goal always widens the divide between solo and SWF players since a pre-made group are all going to be on the same page, whereas solo games would be a dice roll as to whether or not everyone's going to be playing the objective.
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@Peanits I see you're still commenting in the thread. Are you going to comment on the deranking going on without disconnects that two of us already mentioned to you in reply to your DC ban response (which doesn't solve deranking), or not?
I also noticed in other threads the BHVR gets silent very quickly when we point out that many do not DC to derank, and deranking is a core problem well beyond any DC bans.
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I agree that surviving is the goal all survivors share. how they get to that point is totally up to the players involved. there is no rule stating you have to save some one if you do not want to. this game would be far better if even the survivors was more or less out for them selves in most instances. best way to do this is make it so there is some greedy choices for survivors to make.
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@Kilmeran said:
@Peanits I see you're still commenting in the thread. Are you going to comment on the deranking going on without disconnects that two of us already mentioned to you in reply to your DC ban response (which doesn't solve deranking), or not?I also noticed in other threads the BHVR gets silent very quickly when we point out that many do not DC to derank, and deranking is a core problem well beyond any DC bans.
I'm trying not to derail the thread, since deranking/DCs don't really have anything to do with side objectives. It's also 3:30 AM as I'm jumping between threads replying and trying to stay on top of the spam attack going on, so derailing the thread isn't exactly a top priority.
If someone is intentionally running straight to the killer and dying, that could be seen as a form of griefing since it ruins the game for the other people in the lobby (odds are stacked against the other survivors if they're playing a man down). If we have proof of it happening multiple times, we could probably build a case on that.
For the event specifically, I wouldn't exactly count that as this is the first time an event like this has been attempted, and it's only temporary. If something like this is implemented into the base game permanently, I wouldn't be surprised if the emblem system took it into account.
I ain't shy about talking about it. We're doing what we can, and I'd like to do more. DCs are by far the biggest part of deranking and we just made a huge step in the right direction there. If other methods become more prevalent, we'll definitely look at them too and see how we can best deal with them as well. I've gone through thousands of reports about all sorts of things like that, so don't worry, we're well aware of it.
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@Peanits said:
@Kilmeran said:
@Peanits I see you're still commenting in the thread. Are you going to comment on the deranking going on without disconnects that two of us already mentioned to you in reply to your DC ban response (which doesn't solve deranking), or not?I also noticed in other threads the BHVR gets silent very quickly when we point out that many do not DC to derank, and deranking is a core problem well beyond any DC bans.
I'm trying not to derail the thread, since DCs don't really have anything to do with side objectives. It's also 3:30 AM as I'm jumping between threads replying and trying to stay on top of the spam attack going on, so derailing the thread isn't exactly a top priority.
If someone is intentionally running straight to the killer and dying, that could be seen as a form of griefing since it ruins the game for the other people in the lobby (odds are stacked against the other survivors if they're playing a man down). If we have proof of it happening multiple times, we could probably build a case on that.
For the event specifically, I wouldn't exactly count that as this is the first time an event like this has been attempted, and it's only temporary. If something like this is implemented into the base game permanently, I wouldn't be surprised if the emblem system took it into account.
I ain't shy about talking about it. We're doing what we can, and I'd like to do more. DCs are by far the biggest part of deranking and we just made a huge step in the right direction there. If other methods become more prevalent, we'll definitely look at them too and see how we can best deal with them as well. I've gone through thousands of reports about all sorts of things like that, so don't worry, we're well aware of it.
Fair enough, man. And understood. I see your point on match throwing and all. My main game is Overwatch, it's basically the same process over there.
And thanks for answering. I just got my hackles up a bit because in other threads where it was brought up, the only response we ever got was about the DC bans.
Anyway, I'll leave it be now. Again, thanks.
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Im all for having a secondary objective to the game. But using this event as a "test" is a terrible idea. Ive been playing for about 5 hours now, and in numerous games, I usually get 1 survivor that goes around filling up their vials and once they get caught they dont even bother. It gimps the remaining survivors.
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@brokedownpalace said:
Secondary objectives should continue to be optional. When completed they should: 1. Help towards the primary objective somehow, 2. Be worth a good chunk of extra BP, 3. Take a bit of time to complete.From off the top of my head there could be motion activated spotlights though out the map, particularly around generators and exit gates, that really illuminate the area. Killers will not be able to trigger these. They will activate when survivors walk, run, crouch or crawl past a certain activation cone in front of them. When activated they make a distinct noise that scares nearby crows away (indirect buff to Spies?).
Survivors will be able to dismantle them from behind. It will take a bit of time and be a little noisy. Up to two survivors can do it together and it will be a bit faster and quieter. You get 1000 BP for dismantling one and it'll go toward Survival.
Weaker perks could then be buffed around this mechanic. Sabotage maybe increases the speed of dismantling. Technician makes dismantling silent. Resilient and This Is Not Happening could activate when you perform actions within the spotlight even while healthy, and maybe increase the values a bit while in the spotlight AND injured. Lightweight could make it so you can walk, crouch and crawl past spotlights without activating them (but not sprint).
This is brilliant, and i'll do you one better: The spotlights only activate when a gen is completed.
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Giving survivors a second way to escape in case they screwed up and made a gen-stall possible is something I would be more inclined to see but ofc that objective would need to be just as viable as doing gens.
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I heard some incredible nonsense. Are you stupid? Mechanics such will ruin the game and you will play one for the killer that will not find survivors. It is better to leave it to people really versed in the game mechanics and know more about the balance. Specialist of the twentieth rank.....EqMonkVeeshan said:this is a perfect test plate to adding a secondary objective to the game. if they was to have something like this every game even when a event was not going on but instead make it so there is four plants and each plant gives survivors a blood point boost of 25% at the end of the match it would do what is needed to extend the game out a little longer to help balance out the game. props on the event and the way it was done I hope this is the type of secondary objective mechanic that you guys intend to add to help increase game times in normal game play.
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Why do survivors rage quit in 100% offering games then?EqMonkVeeshan said:again the thing that drives survivors is bloodpoints so this would work. I do not know a single survivor who would literally willingly pass up an opportunity to get a 100% bloodpoints boost in a match. unless they was absolutely getting destroyed in the match. and if offerings and perks also stacked with this boost yea not a single survivor would pass it up.
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There is already a secondary objective. Totems. Guess what unless they are lit no one does them. Even with a NOED threat. I swear at rank 1 it is gen rush even if it is a trapper with NOED. I do all 5 totems and 1 gen. I would not stop to do a secondary objective unless it gives me like 400x more bloodpoints because with high rank killers if you don't gen rush you die. Not only do you die but you die quickly normally you see two people with less than 5k bloodpoints and the other two with 20k because they escaped because of the gen rush. If we slow the gen rush I am more likely to get killed with like 5k bloodpoints unless that 5k is going to become the 20k I can get for gen rushing there is no we I am going to be doing a secondary objective that does nothing other than give me bp and give killers at high ranks longer to find me.0
