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What's wrong what an LGBTQ+ character in Dead by Daylight?
No seriously, tell me. What's wrong with that kind of representation. When Jane Romero (Latin American), Zarina Kassir (Lebanese), Yui Kimura (Japanese), Felix Richter (German) and Élodie Rakoto (French Madagassian) were added to the game, everyone was just all fine and dandy, like any person with a brain would be. Representation is nice, it's important to us. As soon, however, as a hypothetical LGBTQ+ person even begins to be discussed, all I see are angry casual people complaining about it.
"Muh horror, no relationships"
So should we just absolutely void and remove the pre-existing straight relationships that are already in the game like Felix and Nurse? Or are gays exclusively not allowed?
And before you start typing "I don't care, as long as they don't rub it in our face" and as much as I HATE that kind of response, I think that goes for just about everyone. Behaviour has to remember to make them an actual character.
Comments
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I would wrote your "typical response" but also adding dont change lore of already existing characters? and my boy dwight is only lockersexual
I dont mind LGBT characters but i want them as new characters (so ppl chosing their main will know everything beforehand)
And if you want to tell "why would they care about that" you can always ask why do you care. (i know you might not ask that but i met bunch of ppl telling that to me as argument to make dwight x david a thing) xd
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Not_Queen made a good point about having LGBTQ+ characters in DbD in the recent QnA. It’s not that there’s something wrong with it. It’s more about how, if they are going to create a character like that, they wanna do it so the character isn’t defined solely by their sexuality. They wouldn’t want to create a character just for the sake of representation.
And she also added that it’s never explicitly stated in lore that particular characters have a significant other. But they could start doing so at any time. It wouldn’t be the first time they tried something different.
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Nothing, but the concerns are that the character will be centered around their orientation, instead of being a well rounded personality.
Plus BHVR doesn't have a good track record of implementation. So people are skeptical of them implementing an LGBT character.
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People really are overcomplicating this. The easiest and barest way would be to add a few lines in characters' backstories about having a same-gender partner (e.g., "the time Jeff traveled with an ex-boyfriend", "Élodie's girlfriend at the time"). The game hardly has a strict narrative as is, so there's lots of wiggle room to fit something like that in.
It's not a matter of difficulty or "not making it their whole personality". It's about giving a toss to do it in the first place.
And for those who keep saying "Well, why does it matter if there's hardly any story?" Because representation is nice to have, you dingbats.
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I don't mind LGBTQ+ characters in the game, as long as it makes sense and that's not all they are. If their entire personality is "I'm gay", then no, screw that. If it's saying "canonically, Claudette Morel is bisexual", that's just stupid.
Besides, my biggest gripe with this is that there are more ways to connect with a character outside of skin color or whether they have a penis, va-jay-jay, both, or neither. For example, I connect with Frank (Legion) from his mentality in the Soldiers Of Chaos archives, and his thoughts about the education system. I can relate to that, I can CONNECT to that. Or, I could relate to how Jigsaw tests people's will to live, and what they would do to survive. I can relate to how people are ungrateful for their lives, and I would totally relate to Amanda Young being a follower of Jigsaw and eventually feeling like no one deserves a chance to survive the games.
Try and find THOSE in survivors or even Killers. "Representation" is just something people ######### about for no reason.
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Neither sexual orientation, nor ethnicity define character. Unpopular opinion, I know.
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No that’s a normal healthy opinion.
it should not be a big thing when LGBT chars get added to a video game. They shouldn’t even be called that. They are just normal chars.
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I don't see anything wrong with it. As a bi dude myself I love bi characters. The problem is it's a horror game, and as such I don't really see anyone expressing their sexuality at any time. Likewise sometimes I think of Felix as a bi dude precisely because none of em express their sexuality in any way so it allows me to see them however I want to. I just don't think it fits, if all characters are sexually ambiguous I can think of any ships and pairings I want (even though it doesn't happen often cause again, it's a game about killing people for fun lol)
Although I would be so down for an openly trans character, that would be cool because it has to do with identity which is something that IS explored in the game and the lore.
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Idk why some of you guys are so press about lgbt character, just give devs time to do it right, my discusion about it one after another make people hate the idea more
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Because these people haven't grown up dealing with the issues LGBT folks face and don't get why representation is important, often as they're people who are heavily represented in media anyway. Not like there's the same complaints about heterosexual relationships in the lore. People like having characters they can relate to. It's really not that hard to wrap your head around.
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Considering the representation will most likely be a throw away line in the lore about "his boyfriend" or "her girlfriend" I don't understand what all the fuss is about. As a gay man myself I don't really care either way but totally understand people want representation. I just hope it's not a stereotype like a butch lesbian, an effeminate twink, or for a trans person either a male or female character model simply dressed as the opposite gender.
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The Writers for the game probably aren't also on the Dev team. Bugs and lore have nothing to do with eachother.
I think the difference between this game and OW is that OW, at least in my opinion, didn't have great writing from the start. The game is "Incredibles, but a little different", and most of the characters were just Cliché's. Outlaw Cowboy #1700, Japanese Warrior obsessed with honor #679 and #680 . When they introduced LGBT characters, at least to me, it came across as them trying to cover up controversy from the game. Not a place of genuine want.
BHVR seems like they want to add them in, for good reasons, and the writing is far better. Again, that's just my opinion - the main point of this reply is that the actual game and the writing within the game have very little do with eachother.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on4 -
To be honest, I know they'll eventually add LGBTQ+ characters, I just kind of wanted to vent because after the last two threads I've been reading through, it's incredibly disappointing that there's still so much outcry against that kind of representation.
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Regarding 'muh horror, no relationships', its actually crazy how flawed this claim is.
Sexuality is hugely important to horror--it's a consistent theme in gothic horror, a genre staple of the slasher and even in the world of gaming you have examples like silent Hill 2 where almost everything is a metaphor for sexual fraustration (pyramid head very much induded).
As for actual concrete LGBT representation in horror- it's not significantly rarer, just usually sidelined to subtext. We're at a point where that shouldn't be the case and some degree of normalisation in dbd would be amazing to see.
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I'm moreso talking about adding brand new LGBTQ+ characters rather than changing the ones we already have. Personally I wouldn't mind changing existing characters but I understand concerns over changing characters that already have an established lore.
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Note that most of the current characters do not have an explicit sexual orientation, so nothing would be "changed" about them. Their lore would be expanded, nothing more.
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Fair.
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Literally nothing. The people who are against it are arbitrarily rebelling for the sake of it at best, homophobic at worst.
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Exactly. I wish I can vote up twice.
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There's nothing really wrong with having a character who has one of those letters.
But i figure one of the worries is that their lore will only be about that letter, which can easily result in a bad, monotonous execution, resulting in a boring character overall.
They'd most likely want to see lore being like: "Janice had to save her wife Lois from the clutches of this maniac before he'd kill her!"
Y'know, so it's made clear she's gay, but the story's not about being gay.
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In my opinion most of people were neutral in this matter, but then some people started making this type of disscutions we can all agree thats some people there wanted to start ######### storm and they made neutral people feel like some of us want to rush it just to have character only base on sexual orientation
Post edited by Mistikus on0 -
People concerned about the mishandling of a character identifying in the LGBT group, which you grossly exaggerate, are those that also reference past misuse of these characters to push some low-effort agenda or to distract from other issues. I think most people here don't care whether there is a character with a different sexual orientation, but they don't want a character known as 'the gay character' or 'the trans character' as if that's all there is to it. Those suck.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
I mean there would be nothing wrong with it but why do we have to put "BTW THEY'RE GAY" in their backstory?
Although I suppose a enby character would be nice and fresh
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"Normal people", right.
I mean there would be nothing wrong with it but why do we have to put "BTW THEY'RE GAY" in their backstory?
We don't and nobody wants that.
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ok? i was literally saying i was against it lol
like it's unnecessary. im not homophobic it's just. what
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No. For me all people are normal, please dont try to put words in my mouth i did not say
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On my part I think the best response to this kind of nonsense is letting any big babies that are so touched by the fact a fictional character is not to their liking, since the character has no relationship whatsoever with anything already established is just pure nonsense being against any type of character being created (It's not the same as arguing against an established character or franchise being changed, etc).
Just hope if they make one that it has very good perks and let's see if people will get it or not because of their sensibilities to virtue signaling as they say. Will laugh so hard XD!
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"Natural", then. Same difference.
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But this scenario people keep mentioning would not happen. Why is everybody so afraid the lore would scream GAY!!! at them?? No other lore has done this for straight characters.
And even if it did, what's the issue? I don't remember people being up in arms about how Jane's lore focused on her career in entertainment so heavily, for example.
By this logic, why put any lore in at all?
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Well im on phone my autocorrect change that,i will edit it
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Anyone who says ######### like (I don't want lgbt people in this game because...) needs to figure their life out.
If you don't hate lgbt people, then you shouldn't be against the idea of an lgbt character being in the game.
If the dev's add an lgbt character, all I ask is that they do a good job.
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Well, yeah.
Like, if a character was female and it said "their girlfriend..." it doesn't matter.
What I am saying though is that there's no point in going back to every lore and being like "ok yeah dwight def likes david"
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Wait, Felix Richter had a relationship with the Nurse? #########?
I stopped reading the lore after the Legion chapter, I guess it's time to read everything I've missed since then lol.
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I realize now that I should've phrased that part better.
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Please, enlighten us. What are some reasonable counterpoints to not adding an LGBTQ+ character? Why should we not have that kind of representation in Dead by Daylight?
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on5 -
The vast majority of individuals with differing opinions did not downright say there shouldn't be such characters. They merely expressed doubts in how well it'd fit in the game and if DBD would make actual character and not some trope.
The counterpoints were mostly along the lines of many companies failing to deliver properly made characters that ended up being the 'gay' character or 'trans' character, and some simply don't have much faith in this one's ability to do so. I do not see anyone downright raging at the idea of diverse characters being present. Some people just don't want to have diversity politics in their games, especially when DBD is a form of escapism. All reasonable counterpoints that don't necessarily invalidate the potential existence of these sort of characters, but I think people have a right to have these and these positions don't make them bigots.
I personally believe any sort of representation in this game isn't necessary, but it is absolutely fine if it exists.
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I mean.....if I'm being completely honest I could give 2 flying ######### what Felix or Nurse ever stick their diddles into.....I don't care. I don't care about peoples flaunted relationships in movies, don't care about them in games. And most of the time when relationships are brought up its to make up a plot filler to give a character an excuse to do something completely ######### stupid. Like in Z nation all of the relationships just made characters have an excuse to do stupid ######### because "their actions were lead by their groins" instead of the current EMERGENCY SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE ZOMBIES LITERALLY EVERYWHERE! Realistically its far detatched from reality. Unless its some love story plot where the only urgency involves what a couple decided to order for dinner, its immersion breaking.
Nurses story....doesn't matter...you're literally in the middle of a HOMICIDE! All the ideas and emotions behind sex and feelings literally mean nothing in a tense situation where your life is at stake. A zombie apocalypse hits....if you got time to get it in sure....go for it...you're blessed....but 99% of the rest of your day is gonna be focused around not being bitten, not being shot by other people, getting enough food and water, and surviving long enough to find a hole to sleep in so you have the liberty to even fathom a sexual relationship with anything but your hand......
And horror is that..... horror as a genre in itself, pins itself on SURVIVAL. Nothing else matters, not your favorite color, your starbucks cup doesn't matter, NONE of your first world problems mean ANYTHING.....because you run the risk of dying TO DAY! That is horror....you can put anything you want up against that basic common instinct, and you tell me...which one will people choose is the more important option...
Death.....or ---> Literally anything else. And 9 times out of 10 unless they have some savior complex like David, they are going to prioritize dying as being the most important thing to overcome.
And before you say "well this game isn't a horror game"
Well if it isn't I will find my way promptly out the door to go play Identity V or Last Year or something.
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The counterpoints were mostly along the lines of many companies failing to deliver properly made characters that ended up being the 'gay' character or 'trans' character, and some simply don't have much faith in this one's ability to do so.
As someone else said (if not in this thread then in another one), no matter what other characteristics the characters have, some people will only focus on the LGBT part and ignore everything else. They will pretend that the character is a trope because they're not acting in good faith.
Every character can be improperly made, but only LGBT characters get such scrutiny. I wonder why that is.
I do not see anyone downright raging at the idea of diverse characters being present.
Because some comments have been deleted. Believe me, they were here and in other threads.
Some people just don't want to have diversity politics in their games, especially when DBD is a form of escapism.
I'm very sorry some people see my existence as political.
That's a lie, I'm not sorry. The existence of LGBT people is not political, no matter how many bad faith actors like to claim it is.
All reasonable counterpoints that don't necessarily invalidate the potential existence of these sort of characters, but I think people have a right to have these and these positions don't make them bigots.
Not reasonable, no. There is no counterpoint against the devs adding LGBT characters that doesn't also apply to non-LGBT characters. That's unreasonable, to demand that LGBT characters conform to a higher standard than every other character, as if they were any different.
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This is called 'no big deal' representation, and is a great way to handle representation.
It isn't the only way, its totally valid to have a character heavily defined by a specific aspect of their existence influencing their life as well. For example, Meg is HEAVILY influenced by being an athlete, even though there is a lot of depth to her (someone with such a focus and will giving it all up to help a family member says a lot about her character). This isn't 'better' or 'worse' than no-big-deal representation, its just different, but its more likely to be handled poorly. No big deal representation is often said to be 'better' but in reality its just easier. However, its important because not every story that includes gay people should be about being gay, just like how not every story with a straight character is about some aspect of their straightness (like their relationship or their kids).
Also there is a gradient. It isn't strictly 'no big deal' vs 'its what the character is about.' A great example is Captain Jack Harkness who's pansexuality is a HUGE part of their character and identity and how they relate to their home time period, but it wouldn't be accurate to say taking that out of the character would gut him either.
In the overall scope of DBD, we probably will get no big deal representation unless a character is an activist or something, at least for survivors. For killers there is a bit more room to play (Gay friendly Hollywood writers did a lot with gay villains during the era of the Hays code for example to allow them to make sympathetic gay characters) but there is obviously a very clear need to not play into the 'deviant queer killer' trope. You would probably want the character in that case to be more akin to Wraith or Nurse's backstory than Ghostface or Legion: Like a prominent idealistic political type from the McCarthy era or something labeled a gay commie after busting up a corruption ring going avenging angel on it before being snagged by the entity.
But, again, the most likely scenario is something closer to a no-big-deal survivor LGBTQ+ character, as you said.
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How many times will there be threads talking about the same subject? It's what keeps the subject from dying, some "problematic responses" which leads to people getting trigger happy and calling them a "homophobe" for stating something they didn't intend to imply. How about we focus more on glitches, bugs and technical issues for the game instead? Yes I know, people want to be represented in videogames with what sexual preference they go by, I understand that I just don't see why it's something to keep going on about until it becomes redundant. They don't have to appeal to a specific individual's looks and characteristics, coincidences can happen with real people and fictional characters, but when that happens we know it's either an inspiration for them to make it into the game or most likely a high coincidence.
I'm not transphobic either, I'm just tired of reading the same content and yeah sure I can go look at other threads around the forum. So before you tell me to "so then what are you dong here posting this?" That's because I know there's people tired of seeing it as well, but I'm sure there's people who don't even bother engaging in such sensitive topics. If we're gonna have people reading into something I haven't even stated which isn't even there, that's on them. I'm not against people identifying as who they want to be, people inherit that from experiences in their life down the road or they just simply found an identity they've seen and liked.
EDIT
So I just noticed one of my sentences was removed from the second paragraph of my post, why was that needed? Don't abuse your authority if you want to censor my opinion, it wasn't even extremely insulting. I'll restate myself again because honestly I don't see why y'all gotta remove it. If anyone isn't personally connecting with any of the characters introduced into the game due to characteristics and apparences then I honestly feel bad for you. There is that better forum staff? Did I sum it up in a different tone that's acceptable? Developers don't have to pander to a specific individual(s), but there always will be criticism even if the game remains fun. Not everyone has to be accommodated with an exact replica of "what a character should be." These are fictional characters, you don't need an exact mirror of yourself in it. There's no such thing as an absolute "perfect game" but we can try to suggest fixing potential issues such as bugs or anything problematic in that nature!
Post edited by Lefrongo on4 -
Being gay, isn't new....it didn't just get invented 10 years ago, not 20, not 30 not even 1000. Its been a thing. So to say people don't know whats going on is disingenuous at the bare minimum. The man who single handedly by his own words invented rock n roll Little Richard was completely and obviously gay. The only difference between back then and now and why he wasn't getting torches thrown at his house is because it wasn't the only thing that defined him. If he had been a "super straight" man always talking about his sexual exploits back then he woulda got torches thrown at his house the same as if the only thing he mentioned was being gay. Because things back then were puritan, and still kinda are you're a straight man running around back then talking about how many women you've slept with you're getting run out of town like Elvis. He didn't make a fuss about it, it wasn't the first thing he mentioned when he introduced himself. And he would tell you to shut up if you ever asked him about what he does in private behind closed doors because thats his business and nobody elses. And nobody got on his case about it or made a big fuss about it either to this day. This idea, that you need to share everything to the world and that your private information be the defining factor of who you are means nothing to anybody but advertisers who profit off said information. Because those are the only people who care other than the ones viewing your tinder profile.....Intimate details about who you are are not important, they've never been important for the past 1000 years they will never be important, your skin color is not important....the only thing that is important is your actions. Those are the only things that define you to the world around you, because they're the only things that the rest of the world can see, or will ever leave an impact.
My grandma marched with Martin Luthor King and she died 10 years ago. The fight has always been a fight about being represented by your CHARACTER, and not the uncontrollable traits which are featured on your skin or private preference....Theres a lot to life to be gained in character besides the superficial. And you guys are talking about the lore of a character....its literally everything else BUT superficial.
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It may have to do with how many companies blatantly try to pander with LGBT characters over making actually interesting ones. There will still be people complaining, yes, as we've seen with the Last of Us DLC for instance, but overall the themes there were generally well received, because it was character building done right. I'm fairly confident if effort is put into the character, there'll be whining, but there'll be more praise than scrutiny.
Well I didn't see the comments. I can only work with what I see. Those that have disagreements are civil and reasonable from what I can see.
The characters/people themselves aren't political. The motives a company has to make these additions can be political and it has been a trend in the gaming industry to earn itself some woke points. I think some people just don't want to relive this in this game. This isn't my stance on it but I believe it fairly depicts some worries people may have. This isn't about /you/, it won't ever be about ///you///, it's about the intent some may have to add such characters, hence politics.
I've had to work with 'counterpoints' that were mostly just concerns of how this would be approached and not downright 'ahhhh I hate gays or whatever', so obviously I'm working with different things than you. No one reasonable wants them to conform to a higher standard. We just hold BHVR to a higher standard than what's been done in other lazy companies.
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Thank you for proving their point.
LGBT people are persecuted even in places where they stay quiet and don't make a fuss. For example, every country where they don't have equal rights by law, as well as many where they do (in theory; in practice, a law that's not enforced doesn't exist). Fact is, bigots find a way to justify their bigotry and persecution of other people no matter what those people do, because they are not acting in good faith.
The latest excuse they seem to be coalescing to is the one you've apparently bought, about how the problem is that LGBT people are "too loud" and "defined by their sexuality". That's bullshit. Heterosexual people are free to express their sexual orientation and make nearly every conversation about sex, but if LGBT people do it, all of a sudden it's "pushy" and they're "defining themselves by their orientation". Does that seem reasonable to you?
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I simply don't understand the big deal about pestering BHVR for one. No one had to ask for any of the ethnicity that we have, and BHVR has consistently added more of each one. Frankly, I think they will add a character that is homosexual at some point, it just hasn't happened yet. All you're doing by bringing the subject up is open a forum for toxic argument.
BHVR should just go all out on a LGBT+ character and make a naturally masculine character who is transitioning, and wears dresses with a wig, and has a voice that sounds like a prepubescent teenager. I'm sure there's a lot of money to be made with cosmetics for that kind of character.
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After going through the thread and deleting a few comments, I'd like to ask all of you to remain respectful and civil, please. People may have different opinions and a topic like this is a sensitive topic to many people.
All opinions can be voiced in a respectful manner without attacking anyone or a group of people. If you worry about how it might be done, there are many ways it can be done or if you feel like lore does not matter to you at all, then please be respectful about what you say.
The biggest thing I also want to point out: Please avoid going into IRL politics too much. Asking for representation is not politics inherently. It's about how people feel.
Please just remain respectful and civil, otherwise the thread might need to be closed.
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Nobody is "pestering" BHVR. BHVR already said that they were adding one, which is why the threads discussing it have popped up in the first place.
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As a gay man not_queen said it perfectly. I don't want a gay character solely because of representation.
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Because its extremely annoying lol. No one wants to hear about sexuality 24/7. Being an actress is an important part of someones character, someones sexuality isn't.
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adding a gay character to a game where the 2 categories a character can be in are killer and survivor? oh i can see it now
if killer lgbt character:
Huffington post: "racist sexist homophobic game portrays lgbt people as evil murderers!!!!!! boycott, cancel now!!!!!"
if survivor lgbt character:
CNN: "racist sexist homophobic game portrays lgbt people as defenseless victims to be killed for amusement!!!! boycott, cancel now!!!!!!!"
also building a character from the ground up where the first and most central idea is that they are gay isnt something i think will ever end well.
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We already have chars with confirmed heterosexual relationships, chars of different ethnicities, chars that are involved in politics (Yui is fighting for women rights for example), chars with disabilities/disfigures. And this is all ok both sides and no character is only created with one trait alone.
it’s unreasonable to assume a char that is LGBT would be treated differently by BHVR.
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