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I'm starting to understand why no one plays with the Twins
At first I had a lot of fun with the Twins, but as you get higher in rank it starts becoming a sweat fest, and it's not hard to see why. All the power is in Victor, but if you play as Victor none of the perks that you have equipped apply.
Tericho uploaded a recent video talking about this, and he had a similar experience that I did where perks like Tinkerer went off, but I had no way of knowing because I was using Victor at the time. Charlotte has no power at all, so naturally you're incentivized to use Victor as much as possible. Simply put, I think there needs to be more of an incentive to use Charlotte. Maybe kicking Victor should be a high-risk, high reward situation where if you kick Victor, Charlotte goes into an enraged mode like Oni where the kicker is exposed for 20 seconds. But at the same time if you kick Victor, it also benefits the survivors because it increases the amount of time for Victor to respond back into Charlotte.
I don't know. Either way I think there needs to be a buff with Charlotte because as it is playing a game with the Twins means that half the time you don't get to reap the benefits from any perks, and that's rough.
Comments
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I actually think that the twins are 3-rd if not second best killer in the game at the moment. When the match starts you can pressure survivors almost immediately with victor attacks that are very hard to miss. If hit surv gets rid of attached victor, then after a few seconds you can go for another attack on other survivors and that's where ruin is putting into work.
If they don't ged rid of him, then you have a 3vs1 match if you are smart enough to not chase a surv with victor on thier head. I currenty run Twins with BBQ, ruin, undying and tinkerer, but if you don't need extra points then thanatophobia is a great replacement.
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There are certainly different methods of play that can be had with the Twins. But using your build as an example, I can see BBQ still being useful since you need Charlotte for hooks, but Tinkerer is useless if you're not controlling Charlotte. Same for Discordance. If it's been activated but you're controlling Victor at the time, you'll have no way of knowing.
Right now the Twins encourage a slugging, camping playstyle since all the power is in Victor. If things were a little bit more balanced between the two I think that would go a long way into helping Charlotte not only feel like more of a threat, but it wouldn't want to encourage survivors to DC because of a perceived play style that they may encounter.
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It's not about perks on Victor, it's how punishing it feels to play them, you miss and get kicked, I'm okay with that, but i successfully hit and down that survivor but other one kick Victor, and they get up before i can come, if they fix it they would be fine.
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I could see that being useful. Personally I think that Victor trapping survivors in lockers should be extended from 10 seconds to 13 seconds to accommodate for Charlotte's 3-second cooldown when switching from Victor.
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Twins have a very peculiar profile and take the "some perks are good on some killers" to another level. If you really want to use them effectively, Charlotte should act as a sentry in the middle areas that you want to control sending Victor around as well as slugging bc you can be at 2 places real fast. Equip Corrupted and take Charlotte to the middle of the open gens zone and harass ppl with the baby. Dowsey has some good content on them.
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No dude, Twins is good.
Charlotte is an M1 killer sure, but Victor is in a class of his own. Further, being able to be in 2 places is really powerful.
There's a learning curve to fighting the Twins but there's also a learning curve using them. I've seen some really good red rank killers put The Twins to good effect.
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As I’ve previously ranted, I’m also sick of how most red rank survivors easily dodge Victor’s pounce. It’s pretty infuriating being in matches with survivors that can’t be pounced on and getting kicked for a single miss.
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Hmm, i don't think that's really an issue, i play Twins a lot, god knows how many games i played with them, I've only encountered 2 times that survivors jump in locker when I'm chasing them with Victor. Like i said, Victor shouldn't be destroyed after successfull hit, also i would add that we can see the aura of the survivor who is carrying Victor.
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I have been playing survivor since the twins release and still haven't vs them yet. Guessing the twins aren't worth the time.
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You realize the top two are Spirit and Nurse, right? Billy is still arguably third best. Twins are nowhere near either of those three in terms of viability. I wouldn't even put them in the top ten, and that's being generous. As OP stated, Charlotte has no power. Victor doesn't offer enough to be a serious threat.
The only way they are really viable in high ranks is if you play the slugging game, and that isn't fun for anybody.
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I like your optimism but they are very low tier
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I think the Twins are strong but they’re the definition of annoying. It’s annoying when your Victor gets kicked, it’s annoying that none of your perks work, it’s annoying to be slugged for minutes at a time, it’s annoying to watch Victor go sailing past your character’s model and get downed anyway. I can’t think of any aspect of this killer that isn’t annoying, honestly. They can camp like a champ, they’re completely dependent on their power but their power robs them of the ability to use perks, even the walking animation of Charlotte feels slow and clunky.
I feel bad for the devs because they obviously put a lot of work in to this chapter and the killer, but Elodie and her perks were the highlight of this chapter for me.
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They are terrible on Console. Super hard to aim, not at all worth the payoff
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The twins are stronger than people can realize, there are perks where it doesnt matter if you are victor or charlotte: corrupt, ruin undying, discordance shows explosion bubble, etc.
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Like I said, they are a lot of fun. They're unlike any other killer on the roster. But there's a reason why you hardly ever see them. Since the Twins were released, I've only ever came across them twice, which encouraged me to play as them since I never see them. After playing with them for a while now I'm starting to see why.
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It's kind of necessary though. The amount of snowballing that Victor can do is obscene, and you can't ever get away from him: he's always going to hit you no matter what unless the killer makes a really bad error. Letting him go on a rampage like that with no way of stopping him if multiple survivors are injured would be ridiculous.
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But there is also no point in attacking them if they are together, you will just get punished for using him, i don't think it would be an issue, if he misses you smash him, if he hits you don't, that's 50/50, fair for both sides
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But you're not going to miss, that's the problem I have with them. He's not counterable whatsoever, if you're injured and Victor's around you may as well just sit there because you're not gonna avoid him unless you're in a Haddonfield house or something where Victor literally can't get to you because BHVR definitely put a lot of thought into this killer's power.
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Actually hit is never guaranteed, it's like saying you will always miss, you can run around objects and not fall for the trap of waiting, even a small objects like tree can take some time from him, especially bigger loops and 360s
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Looping trees is enough to counter him, the smaller the loop the easier the counter. If you loop a victor on straight loops like tl, jungle gyms or everything that has a straight line he's gonna hit you 100% times. Plus he's not like hatchet hitbox where the collision is a small dot while the hitbox is a beachball, the whole victor has collision and even if he slightly grazes objects between you and him he's gonna fail the attack.
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Welcome to Twins. They're easily the worst Killer in the game. Victor is so much easier to counter than a lot of people on these forums realize to the point where a Survivor who understands what the counters are can basically render him almost as bad or even worse in chases than Charlotte.
And he can't pick Survivors up or use Perks.
And he can be kicked for doing literally anything.
They're so bad it's insane. It baffles me that people think these Killers are not only good, but top-tier. Genuinely baffles me. I would literally rather play perma-tier 1 Myers.
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Me and a lot of other killers I've seen have not once missed a guy at a tree or small loop, and if they don't go down instantly it takes them maybe 5 seconds to figure it out. It's not exactly rocket science, you double back on the tree and then charge pounce, or you fake the pounce and run up closer to them.
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I actually think Twins are over-powered at the moment, with how easy it is to simply tunnel and slug, especially on certain maps where there aren't a lot of obstacles and turns to help with evasion. If the Killer keeps up pressure so no one can heal, Victor becomes a one-shot, and then everyone is on the ground bleeding. It's actually incredibly annoying
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what annoys me the most about the twins is that the fact a survivor have victor on their back doesn't stop them at all from using pallets and vaulting windows which should have been the main thing Victor should do to survivors, and also keeping victor for too long will put you into the dying state, I can't understand why it's not base kit, and why you don't see the aura of the survivor Victor is on, it's a really really bad base kit
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What I dislike most about them is their lack of tracking ability. Victor can’t see red trails and Charlotte can always see Victor, EXCEPT when he is latched onto somebody. How the hell does that make any sort of sense? If she could see him when on somebody at least it would stop people from abducting him. Soooo stupid.
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It's nice to know that survivors can't do important things like repair generators, cleanse totems, or heal, but I agree that it's kind of odd to still engage in chases and vault windows when you have a demon on your back! LOL
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I never understood that either. If Victor is on someone's back and other survivors are around that survivor, then Killer instinct will go off, but not for the survivor he's actually on? Very bizarre design choice indeed.
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While Victor can't use perks when being controlled there are still perks that can be used effectively. Ruin works regardless who is control. Deerstalker is useful for finding slugs after Victor downs survivors, BBQ/Thrilling are tracking that work when you do pick up a survivor and hook them.
The main reason I think people aren't playing The Twins is because there's only 1 effective way to play them and there's no room to deviate from that playstyle.
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Yeah that's true. I don't like to camp and I don't like to tunnel, but you have no choice since Charlotte has no power, and Victor can't use perks. The only other viable strategy I've seen is using Victor to protect hex totems. Naturally you're stuck with Charlotte all match, but that just means you need to have a build that supports that.
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Idea: Victor injures survivor
Design: Victor cant see scratch mark, but blood
Idea: Charlotte finishes survivor
Design: Charlotte cant see survivor Victor is on
Then wonder why players play in opposite way
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Please insert the spiderman YOUR SERIOUS meme here please i dont know how
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Or maybe because they are SOOOO clunky to play.
Or maybe because the best playstyle is a slug and camp heavy one.
Or maybe because they suffer from Legion syndrome where 1 mistakes deletes your power and ruins your momentum.
Or maybe because they get punished for downing a survivor if another just happens to be nearby.
Or maybe because they are slow as all hell at doing anything.
Or maybe because Victor is just the whole Killer.
There's alot of reasons to not play The Twins
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Its old Legion all over again.
Effectively impossible to escape in chase and will always catch up to you but it also takes them forever to actually kill you.
It doesn't make them good(Much like old legion) but it makes them extremely obnoxious to play against.
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I'll say this though, at least it only takes 6 seconds to use Victor again after having been kicked. Whereas with Legion you're stuck waiting forever for your power to come back should you miss an attack, which is ridiculously punishing.
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I really think that the Twins are very strong in the play style hey are meant for. However that is not a fun play style and it is easy to abuse in indoor maps. I have been trapped in rooms on Hawkins due to charlotte having collision. Also it's almost impossible to dodge Victor in indoor maps if he catches you in a hallway. I have not gotten to play with the Twins on those maps yet, but I can not play against them on those maps (at least not yet). Also for me its so hard to see victor and hear him until he's too close without headphones, but I'm likely not used to the sounds yet.
Other than that I do feel there needs to be some more thought into balance and pro/cons of using victor. I personally think there is not enough punishment for using victor cause once you learn the pounce its hard to miss unless the survivor is near the perfect small barrier object to loop. I don't want to speak to harsh though since I am still learning, but so far they are not fun to go against at high levels with people that sweat (I only bleed out against high rank Twins :( ) and I mess around too much as killer to have any place to rank them anywhere.
I guess back to the original post I would not buff charlotte without a nerf/change in other areas. They are nowhere near weak.
edit: I have found that the crush animation for victor can cancel when he recovers in the middle of it and addons make it slow enough that it's almost impossible to survivors to crush him in time. This seems silly.
Post edited by seabearCircle on0 -
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect more of a balance between Victor and Charlotte. Personally I think kicking Victor should be both a positive and a negative. In my opinion the kicker should be exposed for a period of time, but destroying Victor should also bring with it a longer cooldown before Charlotte is allowed to use Victor again. Having to wait just six seconds isn't long enough. But at the same time Charlotte has no power, so it's a delicate balancing act for sure.
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Like others have said, you're playing an X Killer build and expecting it to work for a Y Killer. You need to go with builds that make sense for someone whose switching often between the two. Victor is plenty strong, fastest half-killer in the game, insane lunge speed, ridiculously fast respawn rate, you can't say he needs to have perks also apply to all of that, you're basically asking Twins to be top tier.
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I actually like the idea of buffing charlotte but nerfing Victor. Currently, all twins players ever do is just constantly bring out Victor with little to no punishment. Get kicked as Victor? doesn't matter he'll just respawn in 6 seconds. If anything that respawn time needs to be increased to 30 seconds or something.
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I don't think that's wrong, killers shouldn't be made with the intention of not being a strong contender for top tier anyway, some killer designs are so flawed for the purpose of RNG balance that they just lose on certain maps. Imagine Trapper on the new McMillan maps with no foliage textures on the ground so now no matter what you do your traps can be seen a mile away..
That said I think twins are at least mid tier. You cannot convince me they are weaker than Demo, and they have to surely be better than legion.
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I don't think Victor is THAT strong, the strongest point they have currently is the fact Victor is a constant concern. It's really not even that powerful considering how much you have to hard commit with Victor, and it's basically a waste of your time to bring him out in certain situations.
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I play her alot, in fact i almost finished evyer single perk on them. But she heavely relies on meta perks cause she they don't have time to do anything else.
Its a snowball, slugg killer yes similar like trapper snowball. But there are so many things wrong with their playstyle that a few tweaks could make this the best killer in dbd when it commes to mindgames. (even better then spirit)
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Twins are deceptive. They aren't really a 4.6 killer, save the fact they have a 4.6 movement speed. They are designed way more like a 4.4, in that their power is so unique that you kinda need to devote a lot of time getting good at it in a manner that will make most killer players bounce off them.
Having double the map presence in a game where the killer's defined weakness is poor map presence is huge. Already a giant advantage. But Victor is in most situations just flat out better than a normal killer (tiny loops do counter him but you can do some stuff to break em).
Their power has a lot of unique dimensions: Kindapping is less bad than it seems because the entire goal of chases as a killer is to get people off gens and I dunno about you but a survivor signaling they are totally fine with not doing gens for 40 seconds is FANTASTIC. Its like they are sitting in a bush self caring through sloppy.
There is stuff like bluffing getting off victor to bait someone to try to kick before waking up. Placement of both of them when idle. Corralling people into the other. The detection aspect. The fact that Victor is a 'skillshot' power that requires you to master its execution like a ranged killer, billy, nurse, ect. There is just so much about this killer that allows a good twins player to just wreck shop, but also makes good twins play really hard. Because there is no *one thing* you can do to be amazing with twins, just like there is no one thing you gotta do to be good with deathslinger or huntress: you just have to be good at twins.
They can absolutely run loops like a 4.6, but they demand way more mastery to get utility out of them than a ghostface or a doctor. But their power rewards you extremely heavily.
Don't get me wrong, they are cluuuuuuuunky and could definitely use some QOL. Its so annoying how BHVR makes killers play like molasses and has you fighting animation locks or artificial slowdowns or what have you every 5 seconds, they are phyically unpleasant to play, but way less than Nurse or Blight or DS in that regard.
But there will be moments once you start getting good at twins where you realize "Hey this is the strong long loop on the map" and leave Vic there, and then push someone in there. Or you will delay a latch on vic for juuust the right time to come out of your trance for your target to turn the corner and you to drop smack them on asylum. Or when you do stuff like bait people out by switching off vic pretending not to see someone, then switching right back on em. Or using vic to watch someone you won a traditional chase with so you can start another with an injured survivor, switching to him instantly the second you hear a heartbeat to punish an attempt to kick.
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The map pressure you have with the Twins is good, especially if you have Corrupt. Like many I'm still figuring out the best play style for me. I hate to tunnel and I hate to camp, but it seems to be the most effective place style atm. For example, having make your choice can be really sick. Having Charlotte just outside the required radius while you use Victor, and going back to her once an unhook has been done, can lead to some pretty sick slugging plays.
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I started playing with them for a couple matches the other day, and Victor's sensitivity was way too high so I would end up missing many of my pounces. I would probably get better with it if I played them a lot more, though I doubt i'll play them enough for that to be the case.
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"No one plays the Twins".
I've faced them six times in the last 24 hours.
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The sensitivity is a nightmare on console
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And I haven't faced them in days
See how useless isolated anecdotes are?
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It's not a useless anecdote. The post was that "no one plays the Twins".
CLEARLY some people are.
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I'm playing a lot of twins, and for the perks, I think it's best to use mostly if not only "passive" perks on them. No pop, no Surveillance, nothing Charlotte needs to go out of her way to do. However, I do sometimes bring Brutal for Charlotte only chases.
Also for Tracking, I keep the perks to 1 Minimum. Whispers, BBQ, or Thrilling. Nurses can also work sometimes.
Victor himself is good for tracking, when I can't find survivors anywhere I feel they are or will be, I'll stick Victor there. Love the addons that boost that detection distance too.
Other than that, I'll use Thana/Remember Me/Ruin/Corrupt/Brutal/CruelLimits
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In other news, the sky is blue!
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