Should DS be basekit?

Never use it. Very rarely have any use for it.

I understand where OP is coming from, tunneling is pretty annoying and can be a huge turn-away when you get multiple games of it! 😊

I respect your attempt in making DBD more fun for everyone involved, but currently, DS can be used outside of preventing tunneling. That's the problem with having DS basekit and even then, by nerfing tunneling, all killers have one less thing they can use to win! Therefore, you would have to make NOT tunneling stronger to compensate! 😅

Tunneling is an intentional faccet of the game, rewarding killers for survivors making sloppy rescues, or for correctly defending the hook.

DS as non basekit also helps with perk asymmetry. Survivors should have more of a 'perk crunch' due to having a collective 16 slots to play with, and not comfortably fit all the capabilities they want.

Yes it should.

As a weaker version. DS effect is permanent, but, If one of these conditions are met:

• The Killer hooked another Survivor
• If your healing bar reached 50%
• You total time on a generator exceeded 10 seconds
• End-game collapse begins

The DS effect will be removed immediately.

With those conditions, it's real effect will be only to prevent Killer from chasing the same guy, and it can't be abused. Since only 1 survivor can have this effect, he will be forced to chase other Survivors, or if the Killer really wants to chase the guy with the DS, the survivor will have the chance to loop the Killer for what amount of time he can, and then DS him.

This is basically old DS.

They got rid of old DS for a reason.

If people try to rescue you, and they screw up, and the killer outplays you? The killer deserves that hook. Tunneling is a fake problem in the game, ultimately it is on the survivors to make correct plays after the killer wins the chase, it isn't the killer's problem if the survivors just refuse to play correctly, and tunneling occurs when survivors play poorly.

Ultimately if the survivor side is psychologically incapable of doing gen pressure rather than dumb imsta rescues, I want them to lose 100% of their games. DS is in a super healthy spot because it punishes the killer hard for greeding and camping poorly, but rewards you a lot when survivors aren't pressuring you. This hypothetical basekit DS is STRONGER than regular DS because it undoes the main thing that made new DS fair, which was the timing window. Now if your a killer and you stop a trash rescue you can slug, get a free chase, and pick up later. DS merely buys breathing room and clutch moments in EGC, rather than a full extra life at the killer's expense.

Now a basekit thing that makes it so hook farming your own team means you trade places with the survivor you farmed if they go down? That would be silly and immersion breaking, but would ACTUALLY solve the 'tunnel problem.'

Meta perks should never become base mechanics.

To a degree, I have to second this. I have yet to really dive down the rabbit hole that is the lore of this game, but I have seen the entertainment reference more than a few times here. From this perspective, the fix would lie more in a rework, but not quite an overhaul of the emblem/pip system( I honestly do not know how many of what specific action on either side is needed to pip in each Tier/"Color" of play). If the devs really want to drive home the idea that The Entity wants to be entertained, maybe give benefits for closer perhaps, but not necessarily, longer running, more eventful matches.

I gotta give some backing here as well. The Asymmetrical Aspect of this game gives it a fairly unique opportunity to break from the black and white winning team, mechanic. If we are being perfectly realistic about it, a killer, even in Red Tier (Which admittedly I have not touched on either side) hooking all four survivors 3 times is mostly, though nigh impossible, against a full SWF team or even 2 sets of 2. If the devs could rework the system to where top tier killers didn't feel pressured to 4K and Survivor Teams to all escape, we just might see an overall increase to the mood of the community as a whole where killers aren't as frustrated with 4 SWF groups and such groups wouldn't have the motivation to run as such apart from just being a group of friends wanting to play a game together. Though, admittedly, I may be giving too much credit to people in general.

*new survivor experience will be better.

For new killers it will be a nightmare.

We also might see an increase of bullying.

Sadly, whenever there was a change that made the game experience bad for killers, survivors tried everything to make it nightmarish.

Just think about the Howling Grounds event. Flashlights were "fixed" to guarantee a save. So survivors equipped Flashlights and sabotaged event hooks, to make it a horrible experience for killers.

DS can be a basekit if DLC goes like this: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/214130/future-of-dbd#latest

Too bad, even after 10 years, a trial only accept 5 DLC from 5 players at a time.

DS is strongest perk of the whole game, because it gives 60 second immunity 2x even if you fail (get hooked). But i wouldn't mind some form of base anti tunneling tool if killer gets something in return as well. Such as rewarding the killer for putting pressure on survivor either by base ruin or each time you hook new survivor you get 1% permanent speed buff. Right now buffing survivors further would be bad idea as they already got quite a lot buffs last year, and queque times have literally tripled. 1 year ago i had instant survivor queques, now.. not so much

Sure, no one enjoys the killer hard camping the hook, and the counter is to do gens, but the point of doing gens isn't to win the game 'despite' camping, it is to ensure camping doesn't happen in the first place.

The devs have talked about this multiple times and have said over and over that it isn't just that if they want to counter camping they should just do gens.

They said if survivors don't want killers to camp they HAVE to do gens.

They have also tested stronger anti-camping measures many times, and this was back in 2017 when the devs were just so nakedly survivor sided they told killer mains to go play Civ 5 (and quickly retracted that during the strike). They found that making camping any weaker than it is results in survivors just having total power over the game, because the killer being unable to stop sloppy hooks means the killer is PUNISHED for hooking survivors. The only recourse became to slug, which is EXACTLY what happened with old DS with the infinite stab window. No killer was hooking because hooking wasted a lot of YOUR time to put the survivor in a state where they could be 'healed' in a few seconds basically instantly, while slugging meant the other survivors had to either heal the other one up or more likely the survivor healed themselves and got popped with a one tap, which is still about as much time as an unhook.

Camping is purely a problem with survivor behavior, because it comes from survivors being overly aggressive on the hook. If you are REFUSING to do gens and want to go for insta rescues, you are 100% able to do that. But if you do that, the killer can defend the hook, and punish you for such sloppy play. Because *what else is the killer supposed to flippin do?*

Its as ridiculous as killers complaining about genrush because they can't pressure more than one survivor at a time. I am sorry you are mad that I killers are not wandering off to the corner of the map when your refusing to apply any pressure on them and are signaling to them extremely clearly that A: the second they leave that hook, an unhook is happening, and B: that at least 2 people are not doing gens right now, so the cost for camping is insignificant. If you want to avoid your buds getting tunneled, get good at the game and don't let the killer know your going for a rescue, and pop a gen or two to make them go "oh, if I stay here I will lose, I better go patrol again because one kill isn't worth multiple generators."

You don't deserve an unhook if you play badly, refuse to recognize the motivations of killer players or what their strategy for camping is (Because it IS a strategy, hard facecamping basically doesn't happen anymore because its so comically inefficective), and keep wondering why the person you try to rescue gets farmed down when your leaving scratchmarks all around the hook. I am saying this as someone who plays both sides at red: I love people like you as a killer because you are fundementally incapable of ever punishing me, and I hate people like you as a teammate because you over-tunnel on what you want to happen (the unhook) rather than how you make that happen, and when your very direct, blunt, and sloppy methods of getting that fail, you go and whine on the forums rather than realize that the killer is a thinking person who notices you are a thirsty over-alturistic hook-bomber swarming around the hook like flies doing things that betray your intentions comically hard like running into LOS and out to try to bait a chase or repeatedly fast vaulting, which tells the killer A: you want a chase and thus they absolutely shouldn't do it to tilt you further, and B: There is definitely 500% someone else sitting near the hook waiting to rescue and if they repeatedly pretend to that they MIGHT go chase you that one person on the hook becomes 3 and they definitely can snowball the game.

The literal only skill in DBD for a killer, unless your a nurse or a huntress taking snipe shots, is understanding what the survivors are thinking and exploiting it to apply maximum pressure and eliminate survivors faster. That is it. Their only objective is to slow down gens for long enough to get kills. If your bad at unhooks, camping is just flat out THE best strategy to acomplish that, even if they are a godlike nurse who can just land blinks 100% of the time the correct play when a survivor is clearly way too emotionally invested in unhooking RIGHT NOW is is to camp it out.

I promise you. I PROMISE YOU, that if you just count to flipping 15 before even going to rescue and rescue late in each hook phase, you will find camping way less of a problem. Especially if you can do a psychological gen pop to panic the killer. Sure, some killers are going to hard camp, and you gotta take that L, but if your not in garbage ranks that is going to be rare, and usually a killer hardcore camps because they noticed your thirsty.

There is absolutely no rush to rescue. There is no difference between unhooking 1 second into phase 1 and 59 seconds other than the fact that the unhook at 59 seconds has given your team an effective 177 seconds of gen repair time, minus travel time to the hook for your rescuer, and that its MUCH more likely to actually succesfully get pulled off.

Also, while we are at it, other basic hook misplays survivors often make include: Trying to suicide rescue in basement, looping above basement or near hook making a rescue while the killer is confirmed in a chase impossible, thus wasting that chase as an opening to rescue, and sending two people to rescue. Its understandable you don't want to gen jockey all day, if you want to be the looper, fine, but if you want to decoy the killer away from the hook just repair a gen right in its LoS to basically tell them to their face "Stop camping or we will make you lose this game."

Define tunneling in a way that isn't 'the killer correctly noticing the survivors are not pressuring the gens or disrespecting their presence and they are free to efficiently eliminate them as fast as possible.'

Anti-tunnel is a fine design space. But you need to actually codify what you want to do and ensure it isn't just 'I don't like the fact that if I do something really stupid the killer can see me do it and punish me' which is what most survivors talk about when talking anti-tunnel.

Old Borrowed Time was a toxic anti-tunnel perk because it just punished the killer overall for noticing an agro hook rescue was going down and no matter how bad the rescue was the killer just was screwed because they needed to land an extra 2 hits to get anything off it, which was way too much chase power even if the killer was a mere 5 meters from the hook while you pulled that dude off. New BT is a fantastic anti-tunnel tool because it adds 1 hit to the chase and strongly encourages the killer to switch focus to the person unhooking if they body block you after you hit the unhooked victim and trigger the bleedout, simply because they will be closer, but if the unhooker does it too sloppily or doesn't bother to protect the person they unhooked it still ends up farming the unhooked player and letting the killer kill that person much faster. It actually is a negotiated experience where despite the existence of the anti-tunnel tech the killer can still tunnel if the survivors are lazy or bad and just don't give them any reason not to do so.

That is why many of these proposed 'Until you try to repair' "fixes" to DS that just make it old DS don't work, and its why old DS was very toxic. The killer actually absolutely deserves to sometimes destroy survivors, even survivors who had the mere misfortune of having bad, selfish, or psychologically inflexible teammates. What new DS does is give the killer a very strong incentive to, sure, down that survivor that just got unhooked, but then chain into a new chase and hope no one manages to snag that DS boy from under their nose, and the survivors have to do something to make the DS count, like pull that chase away from the DS'd victim. Because camping someone with DS is literally as bad as an idea of camping for a whole hookstate: that is 2.6 gens gone if you do it, you will lose. It is already good enough... if you aren't silly and loop near the downed person, or refuse to do gens and just blatantly stare at the killer as they stand over the DSed person.

99% of the time, the killer is in fact not just being a dick and they know something. Point of order: If the killer is camping and you know they are? That means they were correct to camp. You have to be in a position to observe it, meaning your not pressuring them.

I am a rank 1 who has been playing since beta. I literally wrote a post in the beta forums from the perspective of a survivor main (I played exclusively survivor until vacuum pallets and the survivor slowdown gutted traditional survivor stealth) that became a DBD copy-paste reaction macro to camping complaint threads. Back in my day our number one complaint on the steam forum were people tripping over themselves to say wraith OP. There was some ridiculous nonsense So I have been listening to camping complaints for longer than this game has been released, and its always the same attitude that betrays how fundamentally bad most survivors are at the hook.

And this isn't to say survivors who mess this up are dumb. The beta vlogs from the devs make it really clear they want hooks to be an area where it is PSYCHOLOGICALLY really hard to play them correctly. They want it to feel super urgent, like you GOTTA go rescue now. And this was before SWF made it extra bad. Hooks were a siren call of bad decisions on the survivor's part back when you literally were playing with strangers, but now its your buddy who is about to be taken out of the match... and the killers know it. And they are going to see what you do about it before making their choice, at least a good one.

Here is my advice. Count to 30 when you see a hook before going to rescue. For real. Do it. See how often the killer ACTUALLY is hard camping, and how often they are merely speculatively waiting 15 seconds. As a rank 1 tri-prestiged trapper, I never hard camp... but I just... wait and see. Its all too common to, after waiting a bit, to see some crows fly off nearby. To see some scratchmarks. Maybe, if the survivor really has no impulse control or understanding of my psychology at all, get someone doing repeated window vaults juuuust on the other side of a gym 1 tile away. Maybe notice a survivor peekin their lil old head out of a corner.

You do that? Well....

Your buddy is gunna die friendo. Sorry. This was the future you chose. You just told the killer "I am an overly-emotional basket case who despite having a full minute to wait for you to leave the hook decided to come the second I saw it and I clearly will not give up on this."

Obviously low ranking killers might mistakenly 'strategically' hard camp, and killers who get angry at survivors or who just want to troll may hard camp as well non-tactically. I know post mori-nerf I try to be a little extra bit unkind to people who bring keys into my games myself simply because its so clear they aren't interested in the game being fun at all for me. But thems the breaks, its actually an interseting part of the game's psychology. Its fun as a survivor to know I ran loops so well that we are down to 1 gen and if I actually can't pull of a clean exit from this chase I am very much going on the hook and that is that.

But, more importantly, stopping those occurrences isn't worth BURNING DOWN THE GAME.

Because, remember death garden? Death garden had anti-camping that was stronger than DBD. It was a key feature, the killer COULDN'T camp. Not really. Instead it was balanced around a number of downs and the killer being able to charge up survivor executions that were then contested by a dumb shootout. Way more fair, way more in the survivor's power to get their friend up regardless of what the killer wanted.

AND IT FLIPPIN SUUUUUUCKED. Killers hated it, but it also really sucked for survivors because it actually means that every hook is equally bad and the killer can't ever make a mistake camping, and there was no tension on losing a chase unless the survivors were out of lives. The game actually lacked any stakes at all and just was this dumb game where you ran around an nonsense happened. It turns out the dynamic of the hook is pretty critical to how DBD functions as a game because it represents a shift where the killer's objective goes from 'patrol gens to try to find survivors and keep them off' to 'Try to pressure this one, suddenly super important objective I just created that now influences survivor behavior extremely heavily.' DBD is WAY MORE INTERESTING as a game and stops being a gen simulator because of the ability of the killer to suddenly go from desperately searching for people to actively defending something that will make the lives of survivors much much worse. It flips the dynamic.

This is also why DBD games where the killer never gets a hook aren't generally super fun: they tend to lack real meaningful interaction and just sorta peeter out, rather than being something amazing for the survivors. Which is why gens are generally structured on the map in such a way that it is hard to avoid at least a duo-gen situation that will ensure the game ends in at least one chase where there will probably be a hook, and why resources run out over time.

Oh boy I just flashbacked to 2017 when I was repeatedly making awp CS:GO comparisons on the steam forums to explain why complaining about players punishing you for being predictable is bad!

The way I see it, anti-tunnel perks can exist, but they need to be akin to Flashbangs, not Autosnipers: They don't exist to just overwhelm the other player's choice of locking you down because they correctly guessed what you were going to do and where you were going. They give you a tool to TRY to open up the situation, but require you to both know how to use it AND do very very well because your still at a disadvantage.

Modern DS feels like it hit that mark. Its a bit unhealthy in combination with undying IMO and I think those perks should be put on the same 'charge' as it were (maybe call them 'heroism' perks, akin to exhaustion perks, any 'ultimate' perk that works once per game for survivors all share the same charge because of their game warping effects so you can't stack em), but what it does is basically force the killer to commit to a full hook-stage worth of time to try to get that second hook on ya, which is just a plain old bad deal unless there are extenuating circumstances, but its very narrow in when it can happen and its something the killer knows about so its never a whammy or something they are forced to just eat.

DS WILL get you out of being tunneled unless your team are a bunch of dumbos or the killer hates your guts in particular they are willing to toss the game to get you (And, hey, that stinks but its valid for the killer to decide mid match that its a wash and maybe they just wanna get rid of you, better learn to drop chases rather than just endlessly extend them if you want to be a looping god giving killers hernias! Do that and you can become a bigwig streamer!) but if your team are a bunch of dumbos tunneling is the least of your worries.

No. But a much slower version of unbreakable should be basekit.