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Why do survivors hate Ruin+Undying?
A lot of posts and even stuff I've seen from twitter from a lot of survivor mains like puppers complaining so much about this combo. Even going as far to say it's the small pp build and it's training wheels for killers. Why do y'all hate it so much? Y'all realize just cleansing totems (which some of y'all can't be to do) and running perks like detecives hunch and small game helps right?
Ever since I used small game it makes dealing with this combo so much better, unless it's a killer like blight or spirit, you know, killers that don't need it but still it's not hard to cleanse totems I promise
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If I had to guess, they hate doing things that aren't gens.
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The totem locations, particularly on the new or reworked maps, can be difficult to find.
I recall an Otz video where a totem was on the edge of the map, inside a crate facing the wall. It was completely invisible.
"Do bones" is correct; but while survivors are running around looking for totems, the killer is (usually) gaining pressure through chases and hooks. As a solo survivor, it can really spiral out of control quickly unless the totems are found quickly (refer to above)
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I cleared all 5 totems on my own in 2 mins 37 seconds.
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They like to pretend that they don't have perks/items to find them. Yet when I run R+U it's gone in 2 mins half the time.
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I hate that you're forced to do totems but that doing totems is so unintuitive that you're basically relying on luck
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Because it is in all honesty a brain dead combo. Yeah it's cool that a ruin undying is an amazing gen regression combo but it takes the spotlight away from literally every other possible gen regression / control perk in the game right now.
Pop is still amazing. Oppression is actually good. Surveillance and Discordance are nice. But any killer who can put out even the most basic map pressure and scare people off generators will gain instant and crippling value off of ruin undying. This combination also buys the killer more time than any other combination will until it gets destroyed. Survivors are forced to either power through the gens with ruin looming OR cleanse the totems.
Now that we've all that established let's talk about why survivors despise all this:
1. Undying reveals your aura when you cleanse any totems even dull ones. It's not a bad idea to cleanse dull totems along the way as, in case Ruin gets moved to a new dull totem via undying, this will ensure there's 1 less of that. Also NOED
2. It will take a minimum of two cleanses to remove ruin undying. Realistically, probably more.
3. Totem hunting is actually pretty difficult without a map if you ask me but I'm still kinda new.
4. Coldwind has a totem spot that can't be cleansed. Went up against a Ruin that stayed up all match there because it spawned in that spot from the beginning of the match. You can't "just do bones" when certain totem spots are glitched.
Bottom line, the only real counter play to ruin undying is to cleanse it away which can take a lot of time. Trying to power through gens isn't always possible especially against a good killer.
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Tbh I would swap thrill of the hunt's extra effect and undying's extra effect; in regards to the aura and notification noise.
This gives survivors the ability to fake it out; and more time if they decide to cleanse thus nerfing the one most oppressive part of undying while leaving it's core function in tact- and simultaneously buffing thrill of the hunt which sorely needs it.
Undying serves a purpose the game really did need; letting you make a perk like ruin actually reliable instead of often gone in the first 30 seconds of the match. I don't believe that aspect should be meddled with.
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It's mainly because of the aura reading of Undying, because people use this on high mobility killers so the instant they see someone breaking the hex, they can just zip over to it and interrupt the cleanse. If they got rid of the aura reading, it wouldn't be so oppressive. Killers like Freddy, Billy and Spirit don't need this much pressure as their kit gives them the mobility to cause enough pressure as is.
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First of all because undying shows auras and not everybody play this game so often that you know by memory all of the totems location.
The maps are smaller and smaller, making easier for the killer to patrol everything. If you don't have a real good coordination or means to reveal the totems, it wastes just too much time. You can force your way through the gens by playing super aggressive, but that needs coordination.
If you go for the totems, usually the killer goes there to defend it, so it's a hard position to be in and it's not fun at all, unless you're fortunate to be in a team of very experienced people that can punish the killer for every single mistake done.
Basically, you have to try hard as survivor and I don't think it's fun and I don't go into the match prepared for it at all. I personally use builds that I think are fun, but extremely situational, that can't force longer chases or help me too much besides my own skills. i could equip myself and maybe try to convince my friends to use the meta and get room to make more mistakes and put much more pressure back to the killer and maybe even work more effectively. But I don't think that's fun and if it's to play like that, I'd rather play other games.
I mean... i took some time to convince my team to use flip flop, and now I'm trying deception and camaraderie. The other day we made a urban evasion line through the map and that was awesome (even though the Bubba didn't understand anything and sawed while at it hahahaha). After being saved we got into the match. But we can't do that against this combo, because there's simply no chance of escaping if we do so.
Basically: why would I want "tournament" matches? We're not even that good and like to play around. Sometimes we escape, sometimes we all die. But we have a chance. With this combo, we don't. So why bother?
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So you're saying that you dislike this combo cause you want easy games for your SWF? Even tho you probably use comms and therefore have a massive advantage over killer?
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I hate it because getting seen as a punishment of running near a totem is bullshit. Or cleansing it is bullshit. The aura part needs to be removed or thrill of the hunt needs a buff/change.
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Also because people dont cleanse totems
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The whole point of hexes though is that you're meant to be taking a gamble with them. Ur not taking a game with ruin undying if its guaranteed to apply insane pressure everygame.
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No, I'm saying just what I said. I want games that I can have fun. If I wanted simply easy games I could use the meta, do gens as fast as I can, use exhaustion perks that I don't normally use and anything to make the game "easy".
That's my personal experience. I know people see the game otherwise too.
I could argue that killers want "easy games" too by using it. But that's not the point. My point is that it isn't fun because then I have to be just too efficient to compesate for the fact I don't use perks that help me get the objective done, such as my friends do. And as I play swf, that's true, that doesn't mean it's always 4 and nor that mean we're good. People misunderstand a lot.
Also, I always use bond and/or kindred, so I don't really rely too much on info from my teamates because they can give you false information also. I actually think I get as much information from a solo game than in a swf, with the difference I can have fun games with friends and I don't do it in solo, because I don't know what's the goal of the random playing with me and I'm not there to ruin anyone else's fun.
I don't care about ruin, because I think it's fine as it is, but the combo is annoying especially from the aura readings and everything I said before.
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I've also ran into hexed totems that couldn't be cleansed. Like legit, there are some spawns that if your hex is there, survivors can't cleanse it. 99% of the time, IDC what perks you run cause survivors have a good variety as well. But I've also found hexed totems, specifically around tractors, that can't be cleansed at all. There is no button for it, you try every angle you can to get it and you do nothing but waste time, have to just roll with it and move on.
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I'm fine with Ruin/Undying until the killer has it up ALL GAME. Because you know I'd never have it up that long. Undying makes Ruin slightly stronger, but it's still the same old "gone within the first 2 minutes" perk on average.
I would rather have Ruin/Undying than some other forms of killer pressure. If the killer is getting rewarded for pressuring survivors off gens, which is what Ruin does, he can't also be camping or tunneling. That's how Ruin works.
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Undying, brings a hex perk back...Ruin If no one is working on a gen decreases the progression of that gen.
If people can't keep the Killer on there back long enough and Killer is a aggressive gen patroller..It will increase the matches time which increases the Killer's chances of winning.
Usually,It is just find Ruin break it or power thou ruined.
However,for some go forsaken reason undying being added in causes more butthurt cause they already did ruin and have to go find It again.
I mean,undying is the D-strike of Hexes. Obnoxious aint It? XD
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Which is absolutely meaningless when every map has a ton of variations.
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@viden So nitpick one thing out of my post and neglect the rest? The point remains with high mobility Killers and this combo, it takes little effort to defend totems with the aura reading of Undying on Killers that can quickly get to the other side of the map...Billy included.
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It's a secondary objective, but it's once again so luck-based that it's either a mild annoyance or it's a free win for the killer. Until you cleanse ruin+undying, it's free pressure for high mobility killers.
So you search around for totems because your team isn't getting anything done. And after finally finding a hex totem on the other side of the continent you go to cleanse it but oh wait if the killer has mobility, is Doc or has infectious they'll get you off it before you have a chance to cleanse because that's fair. And even if you do manage to cleanse it WAIT A MINUTE you cleansed Ruin and not Undying, and now Ruin has been transferred somewhere else at complete random and you accomplished nothing all because of BS RNG and losing the 50/50. All while your teammates are getting slaughtered and no gens are being done.
It's kind of obvious why survivors hate it. More randomness and annoying mechanics in a game packed to the brim already with RNG and things to make you frustrated.
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My only problem with totems as a whole is how little information we get about them in Solo Queue. A counter on how many totems are left like gens would make it much better. Otherwise Ruin + Undying is a very strong setup that I like since I know that it's the only way for a killer to compete with very high level groups. If Undying lost its aura reading I believe it would be much more balanced since it's just a better Thrill of the Hunt right now in every way, the killer shouldn't be getting that much information from a perk that already protects totems so much without the information.
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Undying should be work like ruin with it: If it gets cleansed first, it hops to another dull totem. Numerous games where undying gets cleansed right away and 1 min later ruin. Completely worthless and all they have to say is: HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD. GTFO.
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Come on. You can give survivors more credit than that.
Survivors don't enjoy doing gens. They enjoy outsmarting the killer, finishing their objectives and escaping.
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survivors dont want killers to win
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because they cant hit the skillchecks required to clean totems. Oh wait...
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And the solution to MoM was hit again, and you saw thousands of complaints and they kill the perk
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You said it yourself, unless its blight or spirit which is what everyone uses ruin+undying on. Add nurse and freddy and you'll see why everyone hates it. It is indeed the killer's small pp build: you bring a high risk reward perk and you add another one that removes the high risk part of it leaving to you only the high reward. Add tinkerer and you will have free artificial pressure without any game knowledge needed for the killer.
Surely using that build on legion or clown won't be a big issue, but everyone knows that players play to win and they'll use this build on top tier killers that can make the most out of it.
IMHO they can keep ruin+undying as it is but people using it should be forbidden to complain about ds+ub unless they're solely using it on low tier killers
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It's a wild guess, but I think they complain about Undying Ruin because there is nothing left to complain.
Ruin is so weak right now, that survivors could ignore it and it wouldn't affect the gen speed.
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Rushing gens = outsmarting the killer.
Uhh....
Sure, whatever.
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It's basically free value and boring to play against. The killer has free regression and gen slowdown, because if they wanna counter it they basically have to cleanse 2-5 totems. Combine that with tinkerer or surveillance and you have a cancer multiplier.
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Or the survivors could just hold m1 and continue to repair...
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Do you call "sitting next to a generator pressing m1 for 70% of the game" a good gameplay feature ? do you even call it gameplay ?
ruin + undying = sitting next to a gen pressing m1 90% of the game
Here is your answer. This game went from being a hide & seek/chase game (2018) to a generator simulator (2019/2020).
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Probably for the same reason killers hate DS/UB: They're crybabies who want easy games. Just like 9/10 of killer players on this forum.
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It does have some meaning to it. I did it on my own as solo. I always clear totems.
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WHY DO KILLERS HATE DS+UB ?
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I play both sides, and I dont find it a proiblem really as long as people are competant. Im usually the totem hunter so I can deal with it no problem
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I play Killer frequently, and I always use Totems. I can tell the kind of team I'm playing, i.e. good or bad in the first 30 seconds. Why? Someone on that team (usually more than one) is already on a Totem. They are spreading out on Generators and killing any Totem they pass on the way. Good teams have killed at least one of my lit Totems in the first minute of the game even when they didn't get lucky enough to spawn on top of it.
There is a direct correlation in the success rate, i.e. whether I get my butt kicked by the Survivors (or only get a draw) and their spending time killing those Totems. And you know what, these same Teams are bringing up the Generators extremely fast. So, killing my Totems has not taken anything away from their main objective. Having seen it done (and when I play Survivor done it myself) I know why. They are working smarter, not harder.
There are four Survivors and only five Totems. Nearly every Survivor, particularly if they are splitting up to maximize Generator efficiency at the start of the game, will see a Totem as they cross the map. If they stop and kill it (lit or unlit) on the way, minimal time is lost and the majority of Totems are gone within the first minute. Then they jump on Generators and I cannot pressure four different Generators at the same time. Against teams like this I usually see the first three Generators come up within two minutes on average, and certainly 3-4 within three minutes.
Some of these teams (probably half of them at least) are SWF, but that doesn't change the fact that the "start" of the game provides them very little info. It is the manner in which they start, a specific strategy. The good Solo teams do this too. The first minute or so of the game may be the most important minute because it sets the tone for the entire first half of the game. What do I want as Killer? I want 3-4 of the Survivors to jump on one Generator (fast for that Gen but inefficient for the match). This means they are not finding Totems, they are not getting into position, and when I find them I get all to nearly all of them under pressure. Believe it or not, the temptation for a fast 1st Generator is so strong that even Red Ranks sometimes make this mistake. Why do I digress? It bears on Totems. They aren't getting done this way.
One of the most ironic things (unintended I'm sure) is that the Killer has an offering called the Shroud of Separation. Only Potatoes put it in because it is the biggest boon to Survivors in the game. It starts them all separated, and that maximizes Generator pressure on the Killer. It also vastly increases the odds of one or more of them spawning on Totems. Are you starting to see what I'm suggesting? The maximum efficiency versus speed is for two Survivors, and no more, to get on one Generator while the other two go find their own to start or get on one far away and do the same thing. The maximum efficiency period is all Survivors spread out to different generators quickly and kill Totems on the way.
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The minute they are cleansed killers will start to camp and tunnel like crazy.
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Why not just, ya know, dedicate one of your 4 perks to a totem perk like killers usually donate one or MORE to Gen Slow Perks?
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What? No!! Only the killer must have boring slowdown perks as mandatory meta perks.
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So true LMFAO
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DS+UB = killer gets punished for doing his objective.
Undying Ruin = survivors don´t even notice its there.
Yeah, they have to much in common.
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I never said there wasn't options or perks to assist you. I was answering the question as to why some survivors find it oppressive or difficult.
Just another huge problem with this community; No one listens to each other and just assumes they are targeting the "other side"
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then why are they complaining so much about a combo that makes doing gens harder?
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@viden I'm not being ignorant, if anything, you are. You pick ONE WORD out of my post and start crying about it. It takes so long to actually overheat with Billy that if you do...you're playing him wrong. He has enough mobility to defend a hex on the other side of the map to validate his inclusion in my post. Undying didn't really get nerfed, its new form is actually better since you can actually use other hexes that have token counters now instead of the braindead Ruin combo.
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As someone who plays and enjoys both sides. This is stupid. Like... really stupid. DS is used too offensively and for cheese plays to erase mistakes or abuse mechanics with no punishment (end gate.) It also should NOT be able to be bait for a locker.
Unbreakable... I honestly have zero problem with.
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