General Discussions
General Discussions
Why is knock out basic attack based?
It's a leatherface teachable. Slugging machine can't use his own perk for slugging. If your trying to adept it's literally useless.
Can someone explain?
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Because if they made knockout activate with special attacks. then they gotta make things like Franklin's work with special attacks. Then they would also need stbfl and pwyf to also be affected by special attacks. It just makes it easier having it only work on basic attacks
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The definition of knockout is “to make a person unconscious, typically with a blow to the head”
Chainsaw’s cut people up, they typically don’t really “knock people out”
The blunt force trauma caused by that huge mallet makes perfect sense to render someone unconscious... hence the perk’s name Knockout
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I disagree. Knock out it made for slugging. One shot down killers are the ones who slug the most, Oni, Bubba, Billy. I think they can make exceptions for perks that are designed a certain way. Stbfl is made to be a basic attack perk so it makes sense that it's only affected by basic attacks. And I think pwyf is affected by any kind of attack, special, basic, hit or miss.
I just think knock out should be a special case
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And when one eats chili from a bbq they get they ability to see people from great distances
Jokes aside while that makes sense, it's kind of poorly designed to make a slug perk that would and should be used by special one shot killers have to be basic attack so one shot killer don't get much use out of it
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I heard that claws,knifes,machetes or katanas usually don't knockout people either :]
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There's no logical explaination behind this change.
It's just another weird balance decision from the devs
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The explanation is simple: they wanted to nerf the perk and they did
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Because ######### you, that's why.
BHVR loves to nerf random perks for no reason other than to say "hey, we're doing something!" while they don't do anything about things that, you know, actually matter.
Boy, I sure am glad Franklins got nerfed! So, any news on when you're gonna balance the game such that there are more than two viable killers in matches where everyone knows how to play the game?
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We don't want it triggering on getting downed by an addoned Bear Trap, or going down to Deep Wound, etc. It's better game design if we don't start stacking up a series of exceptions.
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Some killers have strong slugging potential and slugging is not fun to go against, especially when killers do it at 5 gens. Knock Out has synergistic effects with other perks like Infecticious Fright that turn an unfun tactic into a playstyle. By having those 2 perks alone, you secure information on who's close by and also protect your slugs from being picked. Knock Out on killer powers is tedious to contest and dangerously effective in winning matches without a single hook.
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Who the ######### goes down to Deep Wounds?
Why do you care about such minor edge cases when the much more important ones (Chainsaws, Ambush, Shred) are obviously going to get hit harder by that decision when they just don't need to be?
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They removed feral frenzy activating perks too so no reason that perk should be stacking with any powers.
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Here's a suggestion: Make a proper definition for "ranged attacks" and "melee attacks", and change the requirements for perks like Surge and Knockout to be melee attacks instead of basic attacks. If the weapon damaging the survivor isn't physically connected to the killer at the time of injury, it's ranged attack. Otherwise, it's a melee attack. That should solve this problem for good.
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Make it work with special attacks, boom it's fixed. You could do the same with Franklin's. They aren't exactly going to break the game by any means, and perk variety should be considered a good thing rather than a bad thing
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But wasn't the aim to make it better so that more people start to use it?
It already had a really low usage and this change made a very situational/weak perk even more situational/weaker.
I would say the better game design would have been to completely rework the perk that wouldn't cause problems in game design.
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"We don't want the perk to trigger off of a status effect with infinite duration, so we nerfed the perk to uselessness on its own killer."
~balancing dept.
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The animation’s off a bit, they’re really striking the survivors with the handle of the weapon😉🤫
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To be consistant among all perks. Most perks work with basic attacks now. And it's easier then looking at each case and just having a rule with tons of exceptions.
That said it would have been better if knockout worked like infectious fright and just trigger on the getting downed rather then the hitting
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exceptions, exceptions, exceptions
Yes, joking aside, Knockout is one of my fav underrated perks and I’d love to see more players using it. The initial blurry, heartbeat effect is unique, and the perk itself presents a fun challenge as a survivor.
I agree, it could be used well with special attacks, but I personally enjoy the challenge of it being restricted to basics.
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Hard to knock someone out with a chainsaw
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I guess I understand that. My main problem is it messes with the Leatherface adept. If your doing good and playing the way your supposed to your going to get chainsaw hits and downs, essentially making one of your three perks useless. Granted 2/3 of his perks are useless on him but still. Trying to do adept bubba is playing bubba with bbq and I find that kinda crappy
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Just read someone say that it should work like infectious and only work on downs. For parts like deep wound, if you went down to deep wound you obviously weren't paying attention or prioritizing what your doing. Bear trap downs are very rare(in my experience) and are used to slug. Giving it synergy with knock out seems like it would be a great combo that is counter able(swf, or watching where the person got down in a bear trap) to my knowledge when a survivor is trapped in a bear trap, other survivors see that and where they are. Now you know the general area, go there and you should be in range to see them through knock out.
The same can be said about surge. Having it trigger from special attacks can cause some interesting builds and more use out of the perk besides JUST on Ghostface or legion(I see it the most on them)
I feel that having it based on basic attacks only restricts the perk a lot
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Someone else made this point.
Someone else countered it. Here's what they said;
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Nah nah nah, you can just declare non-lethal on those, it's fine.
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Doesnt stuff like infectious trigger in those cases though which is special to only infectious? Infectious literally triggers on any downs including grabs in locker.
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So why not have the perk work whenever a survivor goes down? Why limit such a mediocre effect to basic attacks, the same thing that insta-down perks are limited to, when the perk would be way more useful if it was just universal?
You mentioned people going down to addon bear traps and deep wounds, but the former only happens if the survivor gets trapped to begin with so all other survivors already know where they are, and the latter is simply absurd. No one goes down to deep wounds anymore. You should know this. It's effortless to avoid as long as the survivor has a functioning W key.
Post edited by SirCracken on3 -
But why design a killer like Demo with a shred ability that doesn't work with his own perk Surge? It discourages using his ability.
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I don't know about better. Maybe easier.
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Even harder to knock someone out with Freddy's knife glove lol
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Their explanations for 'consistency' are not very consistent themselves. As you pointed out, Infectious is a case in point, especially considering how they were very vocal about defending its current version. Which is fine by me because I can see the merits of both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is so fiercely going down the path of consistency and then making obviously inconsistent choices.
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While we're here:
why can doctor apply sloppy butcher with a blunt weapon? It should only work on bladed weapons. Pls change it.
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Eh, why does that matter?
It's bad game design to have a perk like Tinkerer, which simply wouldn't work on some killers, or would restrict charge time addon values because they had to be balanced around Tinkerer. That where I see this being a mess. But this specific issue? I genuinely don't see the problem.
What would be problematic about a deep wound down (do you have stats on how often this happens? I've seen this happen about once and it was an afk player lol) applying knockout? What would be problematic about a trap causing knockout? Where does this become an issue? Like, what specifically about those things causing knockout would be problematic?
Is it good game design to make a significant change to something that could've had a good pairing with all the special attacks in the game, but change it because of extremely unlikely scenarios like a deep wound down (which, again, what about that would even be an issue? isn't there a scream bubble anyway?).
Can you specifically tell of a time or situation where this was an issue before the knockout rework? I'd just like some reasoning beyond what you provided.
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currently, i think franklins is actually triggering on special attacks. they removed the "basic attack" part of the description (check in-game, not wiki), and it's working on bubba's saw for me.
and to no surprise, it's not really an issue lol.
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Less work > Game balance
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So we don’t have anymore perks that encourage slugging meta
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Shut up man, are you crazy? Do you want they to nerf Infectious Fright as well?
*Sad pepe*
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Again, Play With Your Food specifies Basic or Special Attack. Why not just use those parameters and change Knock Out to "Survivors put into the Dying State by your Basic or Special Attack?"
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I'd love to see the Holy Stats on how often this perk is used now that it has been changed.
My guess is close to 0%.
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Most perks make sense that they only trigger off basic attacks. No one is expecting STBFL to trigger off a chainsaw or Clown Bottle.
The problem is that slugging people can be done in a variety of ways, and changing this perk to only work on basic attacks disproportionately affects some killer's more than others, including the Killer who the perk comes from.
The whole point of teachable perks is to interact with a variety of Killer's. Changes like this do the exact opposite.
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Exactly, I've played matches against competent Knock Out + Infectious Fright Nurses. Spending half of the match on the ground or running around trying to find your dying teammates with no clue as to where they are is not fun. The only thing that keeps them in check is the first part: being competent. Nurses with that expertise are the reason some players advocate for a CD on Infectious Fright, but they are infrequent enough not to constitute a widespread problem.
If killer powers applied Knock Out, then that playstyle would be easier to abuse. Corrupt Purge Plague and Bubba are the ones that come to mind.
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The thing is it used to work with special attacks like yes it did seem weird when it worked on Billy/bubba but that was it
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By that logic wouldn’t it work on Oni? You can’t use real world logic in this particular game
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So, should killers just punish SQ players even more?
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No. I personally think that it should inflict Oblivious on the dying survivor instead of Blindness so that they can at least still crawl to their teammates and not be able to tell their teammates where the killer is. It would make sense to have the crawling speed debuff then. I would still prefer if it affected all attacks though, just change the debuff.
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