Fixed Mori's, but left keys
Dont get me wrong, I really enjoy that certain aspects of the game keep getting fine tuned!!!! BUT lets do it in a balanced manner.... Why where the Devs so quick to "fix" mori's but leave keys as they are? Thank god that the survivors can Tea Bag more fluidly.. putting forth time and effort toward that and not address anything that balances that game for killer would be to much. Sometimes I wonder if the Devs actually play their game or not.
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It’s always in that order, killers get nerfed first, followed by survivors down the line.
It may have to do with how much revenue is being provided to the devs by players, at which time (it could be at a peak right now) quarterly, and other financial variables.
My assumption is that keys will be nerfed when the players spending begins to flatten out more.
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Because changing keys requires much more work than changing moris. With moris all they needed to do was change a number from 1 to 2, but with keys they will have to implement stuff like new animations to make it so you can't jump into the hatch instantly, or some other nerfs, including a full addon pass (probably).
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well if you understand that much already then I would say you know where there priorities are.
Hopefully, not counting on it, with the new animations that are being implemented in with the mid-chapter patch, keys will be nerfed without announcement, much like Mori’s were.
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Multiple hatches spawn.
As keys are used on the wrong hatch, when the hatch opens, the entity’s tentacle pierces the survivor and they must free themselves (similar to a bear trap escape). If the survivor successfully frees themself, the tentacle remains, protruding from the hatch while the survivors must then seek out another hatch.
Injured survivors managing to free themself will be placed into the dying state.
Killer receives notification of the pierced survivor’s location.
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keys are were no where near as annoying as Moris. on a scale of annoying things in the game. Mori's were 10x more annoying then keys. Keys can be a pain, but you have to make decent progress in the game before they have any value.
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Moris were the bigger problem and the fix required no major under the hood changes. It's been like a month.
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Please go back to 1.0.0, then come back to 4.4.2 and tell me about how the devs only listen to survivor money and always nerf killer first.
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Keys will most likely get nerfed this patch, but they're keeping it silent so survivors dont go keyhappy till the update.
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I agree. If survivors went key happy then killers wouldn't want to play anymore.
Although we could also just be giving the devs too much credit. Who knows.
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In my opinion they should have given mori's a full rework like keys, not some lazy fix.
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If you don't feel Moris were an issue in the game I struggle to see how you'd consider keys an issue either. They're used much less frequently than Moris.
The economic argument doesn't make sense either, because the game would die if Behaviour only catered to survivors. They have a massive economic incentive for the game to be balanced and fun for both sides.
1.0.0 was absurdly survivor sided and the game has gradually gotten more balanced since then.
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Please understand 1.0.0 had different priorities in the financial market than it does today. If you learn some basic marketing you will understand.
*Note: I was around when 1.0.0 was there. Don’t think I can’t recall what the devs did and did not do.
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I have typed this same response like 10 times in various threads so I'm not getting all the way into it now. Bullet points:
* Moris are basically a guaranteed 3K + hatch or 4k if matchmaking is fair. Keys most commonly let one person escape if they're able to be used at all. They are often useless.
* Keys allow matches to play out normally until the hatch spawns. Moris send the game into a death spiral.
* Moris had no counters. Keys are visible in the lobby, meaning you can easily bring Franklins, a Mori, etc. to counter them or you can just leave the lobby if you don't want to play against them.
* Most importantly, Moris are an OFFERING. Given their slot and rarity, they should be roughly as strong as things like Murky Reagents, Salty Lips, or Putrid/Petrified Oaks. These have niche effects and usually make very little impact on the game. This is exactly why the Mori nerf was appropriate. Meanwhile, keys are an ITEM. Given their slot and rarity, keys should be on par with things like Ranger Medkits, Commodius Toolboxes, Rainbow Maps, and Utility Flashlights. These have strong effects than can make a big impact on the game, and their add-ons can make their base effects even stronger.
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Behaviour has an overwhelming economic incentive to make the game fun and balanced for both sides. Anything less and you have insanely long queue times and eventually a dead game.
If you were around in 1.0.0 you would know how absurdly survivor sided it was. You would also know that the game is much more balanced now, and that killers therefore very clearly haven't been ignored.
Kill rates in red rank are ~68%, and that's with the hatch automatically opening for the last survivor now. What should that rise to before you'll feel killers are being treated fairly?
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Yeah of course on the surface that’s the motto, every company has a mission statement and I am well aware of that. However, since their biggest revenue comes from the spending of 4 players (survivors) Vs the 1 (killer) their priorities are where there biggest dollars come in.
Also, using “kill rates at red ranks are ~68%” is a major flaw of information that the devs themselves have said not to conclude anything from. The reason being, for example, not everyone really belong sin red ranks. Red ranks now are only really associated to play time.
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Haha you’re telling me to git gud you’re funny and you must be new
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They said they’ll be reworking both moris and keys. They’re done with moris and now keys are next. Be patient.
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Kinda too late.
Key usage definetely increased quite a bit as soon as moris were nerfed from what i've seen so far because a lot of survivors realized that keys will be nerfed sometime soon and that the killer can't really punish keys with a mori anymore.
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I agree with that. Although I do think it's still better than if the devs came out and said "Mid Chapter we're changing keys".
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It would take VERY little work to add the Totem Cleanse or Chest Unlock animation to the button press that uses the Key.
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I personally don't believe it'd have made a difference if they changed 'em both at the same time or not, there's still gonna be an absolute uproar over anything short of just removing every key but the green from the game.
I wouldn't mind, but that's how I see it.
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You know, sometimes I wish I could return to older versions. Yes, there were countless balance issues, but somehow things just felt different.
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Whether 68% is actually a perfect number isn't really the point though, since it's substantially higher than 50%. 50% intuitively feels balanced and the devs have also said they consider 50% to be perfectly balanced. So long as 68% is in the right ballpark, then, it's enough to suggest that the game is not survivor sided right now. I think the kill rates could actually be a bit inflated, since survivors should suffer more from uneven matchmaking. That's because even one potato on a team of four is enough to torpedo the team, and the odds of finding four players without one potato are very likely lower than the odds of finding a good killer. I think survivors will perform a bit better at high rank when MMR comes out, then, but still, there's a massive difference between 68% and 40% and I feel that's way too much to be explained by wonky matchmaking, Moris, and the like. The number at all ranks is 56%, which is a ~5% lower than the last stats drop, but which is still comfortably north of 50%. The ~68% number at red ranks is pretty much the same as the number from last year.
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Me too actually, even just to test some things out! I was playing on 1.X but I wasn't around for actual 1.0.0. It would be nuts to try out the Self Care + buffed We'll Make It stacks and the insta-gen BNPs :D
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Hi, I copy and pasted this from another post I replied to and I believe this could be a solution. I think first they should change the appearance of the broken keys and rainbow keys. I like to bring broken keys to see the obsession sometimes and instead, I end up getting tunneled into oblivion. They should make the keys to where the killer gets an alert to when you're opening the hatch while the game is still going if all the gens haven't been finished but only if there is more than one survivor. Also if they open it in the middle of a game let there be a timeframe that it stays open before it closes depends on how much time u want. maybe like 20 seconds or less and then it closes again and it goes like normal except nobody can open with a key again and they have to wait until everyone is dead except one person or two people leave through the exit gate and that person goes through the hatch when it opens. So if they are playing an SWF they open the hatch and their friends cant find it they can't escape and it would still allow for the 4 escape achievement there is just a timeframe for them to escape. 20 or fewer seconds and then the SWF would suffer from losing a teammate because they weren't able to find the hatch also as the killer if u find the hatch u can close it further preventing anyone from escaping. extra solution this should only be for SWF though (If the survivors open the hatch when all the gens are done then endgame collapse starts but the hatch doesn't have a time limit though but you can find and close it).
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The devs have already covered this (I swear people don't bother looking things up). Certain steam achievements are linked to key escapes and they have a very strict policy about being able to change them post release. It has nothing to do with "MuH sUviVoR bIAs" or that nonsense, it is simply a logistical problem (arguably one they should have considered at the point of inception) but that's just hindsight. Should mori's have been changed at the same time? Maybe, but kill rushing with a mori was far more powerful than a key. Only the deluded would pretend otherwise.
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You’re a joke if you think the survivor role is balanced at all. Try playing killer, it’s an option on the menu, click on it and get to red ranks. Show us what your results are when you go up against 4 DS/Unbreakable.
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i dont think so tbh if they do it it means the devs have some balls
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So you really comparing an offering that allow killing on the first minute to an item that allow a second escape once enough gen are down ( or players killed ) ?
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given the slot keys are in and that you can ALSO add on power usage and items to KEEP the key instead of loose it where as the MORI could not be saved even if you wanted to. so mori's open up killing at one point (first down (originally), second down (rework) and now third down (rework #2)) that's all you get. sure it ends the game quickly in general but look now at keys: you can use it for 30 seconds (pink key) add on a wedding ring that reduces your chance of being the obsession and lets you see the obsession, track other players, track the killer, keep the key if you die, keep the key if you use it and extend the time it can be used. Any two of the add ons can be combined as well thus making it extremely more powerful because you can then use an offering to keep the key and it's associated add ons. so unlike the mori they can do MORE than one thing AND free up an offering slot for the player to use something else say extra blood points, certain map, place the hatch at a certain location, this makes keys very much more powerful than mori's ever were especially in a proper match up.
Also there is just as braindead way to fix keys so they aren't as op... change the hatch open time to 0 (a single number value) and only one survivor gets out once the hatch is visible. so they moved the number of hooks required to mori people from a 1 to a 2, and in the process screwed up devour hope some how, which is just a single number value change. so we have the same braindead way to fix keys, only one person out at the same time. why could they not think of that? I'll tell you why, because they wanted to make them BETTER than just changing a value. The way they did it shows that they don't care much about killers currently as they didn't even think about how it was going to make them seem and it showed that they are more concerned about the survivor money than the killer money, do you know why it's taking mostly forever for survivors to get matches and killers get matches almost instantiously? because people have stopped playing killer because they are upset. I didn't buy the DLC myself when they released it with all the bugs and with the mori/key debacle and now the changes coming out on ptb i'm not buying anything for a while now, as though i play survivor and killer, I feel that i'm slighted by their actions.
when mori's were changed the first time they said they'd work keys later and still have not well actually they buffed them with the wedding ring AND the offerings to move the hatch to the shack or main building. how long are we to continue to be patient? one month? three? one year? two years?
I'm not saying you are incorrect with the chinese stake holder but is there absolute proof of this other than someone is of chinese descent? All good either way I was just curious if this was provable or not, that's all nothing bad about you or the comment either way just curiosity as I had not heard this before.
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the MORI is linked to an achievement and now it is almost next to impossible to get unless you're going against memers or newbies and you aren't a newbie yourself (In a public match, kill 4 survivors in a single match: named: Blood on our face) this requires the use of the ebony mori, and unless you are very much better than the team you are against now you will not get all 4 kills like that. sure it's possible to get but unlikely to happen much anymore. same with keys, set it to 0 open time, and it requires all people to go through the hatch for the whodini challenge, but that achievement does not state how may keys need to be used. and it can happen.
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it is the apperance of bias, not that there is actual bias. apperance of bias is even worse than actual bias.
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Not hard, at all. You can even do it with DH at Rank 1. Stop pretending most matches are against swat teams. I've never got the "Where'd They Go" achievement cause that's actually almost impossible as a solo.
Funny, I can get 4K's with Wraith at Rank 1 with Overcharge being my only gen related perk. You do realize a strong counter to DS is not tunneling? And a strong counter to Unbreakable is not slugging? I think you need to play killer more to understand the basics. Usually the ones who are trying to do it to rub it in your face end up causing their team to slow down on gens as their buddies are nearby in case something goes wrong.
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Here you go since you think I need to play killer more, or even think I need perks to begin with. Owned I guess.
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I'm soooooo glad you are able to do it so proficiently. I don't always get that luxury as I'm not the best at the game. so stop thinking everyone plays as good as you. I didn't make any comments about swf in my post, I made logicial conclusions based upon observed and experienced outcomes. and with a 0 open time hatch with a key it is still possible to get to get the achievement for the hatch, so any more arguments about me making assumptions?
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So. You want the game easier? Either you're not good enough and need catered to. Or you're good enough and want the game to be easy mode cause the times you lose... are just ego shattering.
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Please show me the way since you’re obviously a master killer and I’m needing “catering” to
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Regardless, getting a mori achievement is still comparably easier than trying to get the whodini challenge (post reworks - hypothetically). The most common (and most likely proposed) workaround for keys would be have only the survivor carrying one to escape. That would require a killer being willing to go against a lobby with 4 keys which we all know just isn't going to happen with lobby dodging being a thing. Don't get me wrong, the mori achievement is ridiculously hard now but the rework options for them aren't limited as much as the key ones because of multiple factors. As for the appearance of bias vs actual bias, those people are morons because there isn't anything BHVR could do that would ever convince them otherwise. Wasting time trying to change their minds is just a pointless endeavour at this stage.
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They could nerf keys into the ground too, easily if they wanted. Survivors alive above 1? Hatch only spawns when gates are powered. Now you can only get multiple people out by doing the objective. There. Lazy change that nerfs keys and would only require a numbers change to hatch spawn. It's easy to implement a lazy change, you think they couldn't have taken their time with moris and given it something better? Quit eating up their excuses.
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The Mori are almost perfect now though. They should just give lots of Blood Points to the killer and heck even a sum to the Survivor that gets killed so it's more of a all around cool thing and also slightly punishes those who suicide to the entity to not get mori'd. Now if you're a good trooper and take the mori, you get a handful of BP to.
Keys can be something a bit more interesting at least.
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I guess you didn't read my post and restated almost everything I stated. is that your argument? to co-opt my words and ideas? wow.
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Well that's certainly a stupid take if I've seen one. Probably best for us both to move on at this point.
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Making the hatch only spawn when only one survivor is left or all generators are done solves all the problems, leaves the achievement untouched and is a simple number change just like mories were
It's not a logistical problem
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Honestly I've even as a killer I've been finding the current key situation pretty bad for even survivors too, especially solo survivors. I've been in a couple of a games now where one person would be dead, one gen is left, one is on the hook but the other two hatch escape leaving the other person to die on their own. I don't play survivor all that often but being in a situation where your teammates quite literally leave you to die while they escape the match much feel pretty aggravating sometimes. My person rework for keys has come in the form of making the hatch a true cowards escape and it's a simple change really. Only one person can escape through the hatch, once they escape the hatch closes and is blocked by the entity for the rest of the match. If you really wanna go the extra mile the survivor who escapes by a key can have a cowards penalty for the next match like not being able to use the hatch themselves for that match or something.
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Not sure I follow your point here as the hatch already spawns when only 1 survivor is left. The part which killers aren't happy with is that a key means they can escape from the match earlier while the killer is still trying to apply pressure. Changing the numbers or the condition that the hatch spawns under doesn't fix the fundamental grievance which is one key can completely derail the game. The fairest way to fix the issue would probably be to try and get the achievement pulled from steam and then re-design the way keys work to either be a per survivor use or at least having an unlock bar.
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"Or all generators are done."
You seem to have missed this part.
Hatch spawns when 1 survivor is left OR when all generators are done.
No more spawning when there are multiple survivors and still generators left
People can't escape the match earlier anymore. Achievement is litterally exactly the same as before. It's that simple to fix keys. No need to go around asking for achievements to change. Just one line of code that needs to change
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Don’t forget they’re nerfing undying to which will most likely come out first
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