Dead hard isn't extremely powerful because it can let a survivor dodge a hit
It is extremely powerful because survivors can use it to extend a chase by the press of a button.
I have just many arguments saying that "It actually isn't that bad, you can just bait it out" but I feel that people who say that are just inexperienced and don't know how the perk can be used at its best (not hating).
Dead hard is incredibly powerful especially against a killer like Wraith, or Trapper. Wraith is destroyed by this perk and even a good Trapper will struggle to trap survivors who can just go through their traps which is honestly just straight up unfair.
It is also unconditional aside from the fact that you need to be injured to use it. You don't need to vault a window like lithe, get in a locker just like head on, or hold it like SB, you can just use it whenever as long as you are not exhausted and injured. - Point from @danielmaster87
The amount of value a single survivor can get out of this perk is astounding to say the least and I feel that the only reason the devs have not nerfed at the perk is because a lot of newbie survivors don't know when to use it (I mean just look at the baby Davids).
The fact that a survivor can press E to erase their mistake and extend a chase seems a bit unfair imo. I feel cheated whenever I am put against multiple survivors who are using it.
But the most detrimental part of it is that it is especially powerful against any killer that only has an m1 attack (no projectile or something like doctor's shock) such as the killers described above and even the good ones.
Imagine this situation. You are playing Wraith around a T and L wall. You finally are catching up to the survivor and right before you get into hitting range, they press E and make it to the wall and then give you a tour of the map. You spend all of that time chasing a survivor, and you don't even get a down. The same thing can even happen with a strong killer such as Oni or Huntress. If you fake dashing into the shack while a survivor goes to vault the window outwards, that is a down... unless they have dead hard. In that case, the survivor will use dead hard to give them a second chance. And then they buy themselves and their team time. What about Huntress? You could chase a survivor around a pallet gym and correctly predict when they drop a pallet and just barely make it right before they can move, but when you throw the hatchet it goes right through them because of dead hard. Same thing for Pig, you make a fantastic mindgame while dashing around a truck but because the survivor has dead hard they dash right past you and take you 'round again.
Just play killer at high ranks against a full team using dead hard like this and tell me that this perk is okay. And just a reminder, this can be used multiple times in one match on just one of four other survivors you have to worry about who could also have the same perk.
The point to take from this is that Dead hard is extremely powerful because not only does it give the survivor using it a second chance, but mainly because it can extend or even force the killer to end a chase which is crippling against lower-tier killers. I honestly think it needs a change, but I can't think of one that is balanced and still useful.
Just wanted to educate some people 'bout ded 'erd.
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I truly hate hyperbole. The times an entire group of 4 survivors have DH is miniscule at best.
As a Doctor main - I am not affected by DH any more than Lithe for example. As a survivor I have NEVER ran DH in a public lobby (Tested in KYF) because I actually think it is the second worst exhaustion perk (Balanced Landing being the worst imo). I can escape a loop way easier with Lithe than DH any day as a survivor.
As a killer I just bait out DH - and then down the survivor.
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Yea dead hard is brutal against m1 killers. What annoys me is when I mindgame a good survivor at shack (which is hard as hell to do) and then they just dead hard for the pallet. If dead hard never existed, killers wouldn't be getting robbed of downs almost every match
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Did you even read the OP's post? He literally gives valid points to people saying "just bait it out", and you completely ignored it.
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When you are injured, deadhard allows you to do some risky plays and if it works, you wasted the killer's time and still have deadhard for another risky play which again, may or may not work. If your risky play doesnt work, you have deadhard to rectify it. This is a strong advantage deadhard gives you
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I don't think OP is being hyperbolic - the never claimed that Dead Hard is always run by all 4 Survivors, or that it will always extend chases by a great deal. They're just pointing out it can do that.
Their primary point is that Dead Hard allows a Survivor to potentially void a mistake they made while looping and then continue to loop. You don't have to agree that that is problematic - but it is accurate.
Also, there are situations where Dead Hard cannot be baited out - i.e. Dead Hard for distance. It's not always as simple as just waiting.
For the record, I personally don't think Dead Hard is problematic - it's an Exhaustion perk, and Exhaustion perks exist to turn Survivor mistakes into successes.
Considering that Survivor mistakes can result in them being removed from them game, I think it's fair. Especially Dead Hard, as it suffers from latency issues as well as the potential to be called out, baited, and negated in a variety of situations.
What I do wish is that there were more ways for Killers to play around the other Exhaustion perks. Ways to inflict Exhaustion, gain additional speed, or otherwise lessen the potential negatives of Exhaustion perks if you're able to call out the attempt to use them.
Things like aiming ahead of a Survivor that uses Balanced Landing as Huntress, Exhaustion inflicting add-ons on M2s (at less time than Huntress' add-ons of course - 90 and 30 seconds is pretty crazy), and Clown's Antidote come to mind.
Ideally I think every Killer should have something like that - a way to benefit from successfully predicting a given Exhaustion perks.
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Do other exhaustion perks not do the same but in their own way? Killer is closing in for the hit... but then they miss to dead hard.
Killer is closing in for a hit... till they stand still for a sec and rob you of a hit with SB. Or, they make it to a window/hill and again, robbed you of a hit.
Change all of them if dead hard needs it. They all do the same thing, with dead hard just in your face all the time.
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Maybe I'm just being overly skeptical but I could have sworn I posted a comment containing similar terminology and talking points to what you said. Then again, maybe there's simply not much room for differentiation in criticizing this perk.
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These arguments are terrible, especially when top streamers make them.
It does not matter how rare something is. It should not be balanced based on rarity. For example, i am a nurse main with 1.5k hours. I think she is overpowered and needs a nerf, i also recognize shes basically the only viable killer in tournament level play (maybe spirit too but barely). Just because good nurses are rare doesn't mean she is balanced when i can win 50 games in a row as her without breaking a sweat.
As a hyperbolic example. Imagine there was a killer offering that did the following for a killer:
- All survivors are permanently exposed.
- You permanently see the aura of all survivors.
- You can mori them without any hooks.
- Your movement speed is doubled.
Now imagine that offering only could be used once every 500 games. That means only 0.5% of games will see this offering happen in them. Does that mean the offering is balanced because it is rare? No, that offering is overpowered and should be dealt with.
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Yes balance shouldn't be based on scarcity. No other pvp games do this and dbd has had this issue since it's started.
Back to the DH argument how do you balance it and keep it fun to use? I think perhaps it shouldn't be an exhaustion perk but rather something you have to earn like MoM but with a criteria actually feasible. Sometimes you do hit a really well timed dead hard and deserve to extend a chase.
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Remember, you can mindgame a DH it's easy :) turn your brain on , dbd is not just a click click game before saying nerfing each or each perk ^^
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Dead hard is absolutely fine, they shortened every single loop keeping in mind that dead hard was a thing. If they are ever gonna touch dead hard i would expect a lot of loops to be made safer than they are.
As usual now that they are gonna nerf ds and OoO the community needs another scapegoat as an excuse for their loss
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Deadhard is a third healthstate. Its has been a meta perk for years for a reason.
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lol have you played the new maps? Safe pallets and windows everywhere. Shortening a single loop means nothing.
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We didn't get any single new map since june 2020, all other maps were reworked existing ones that have been nerfed a lot.
Now unless you consider LT walls safe windows idk what you're talking about.
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Literally what I was thinking LOL, ever since devs said "DS and OoO are nerfed! 🦀🦀" I have been seeing a LOT more complaints about Dead Hard. Not that people didn't already complain about that perk, but I definitely have seen that, for some players (not calling anyone out in particular, just in general) it has become the brand new target for their loss and has to be nerfed or taken out of the game.
Anyways, a little more on subject, I really, really don't think that perks should be balanced around how fair they are to the worst killers in the game. Wraith lowkey sucks and nerfing Dead Hard isn't really gonna make him that much better 😭 Are you gonna tell me that Dead Hard is so overpowered against Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Huntress, Deathslinger, etc.? Or does it matter much that Dead Hard is one of the few perks that offers a small reprieve from how powerful their chase abilities can be?
Dead Hard is a GREAT perk. But I don't think it needs to be gutted LOL
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although dh is a really strong perk I think it kinda deserves the reward for it because u need incredible knowledge of map layouts to properly use it unlike ds, bt which requires no skill
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^ This
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It really doesn't have to be fun.
After all, playing killer is tedious and painful, even with a full meta build, so why should a survivor be able to have a great time just because they have one perk?
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I see lobbies with 4 DH all the time at red ranks. I see it even more than DS. Usually at least 2 players will have it.
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Anyone who say's dead hard isn't a problem because you can bait it out obviously are not experienced enough to know it's true strength which is not dodging hit's but simply being universally good against any killer by guaranteeing a vault/pallet or against specific killers it can dodge their power such as nurse or hag.
I'm not sure what they can do to it as it is a good perk because of the invincibility frames combined with the short distance it gives you. Removing one or the other would severely weaken the perk if not make it unusable or if they kept the I frames it would still be good but then they would have to allow you to turn with it which would make it just as strong.
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It's a game? Hello?
I've had my handful of very difficult killer games against thousand hours survivor players. It takes one to beat one. DH isn't the only fun survivor perk either....
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Nerf Dead Hard, and everyone will just run Sprint Burst and run away at the first sight of the killer. So next I'm sure killers will be calling to nerf Sprint Burst if Dead Hard gets nerfed. As much as killers complain about survivors demanding nerfs all the time, killers seem to be demanding the same nerfs.
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"Just bait it out" "I feel like people who say that are inexperienced" "You are playing Wraith around a T and L wall"
Your first mistake is chasing a survivor around a T & L wall as a Wraith.. Clearly you dont know how to play your killer and as such is why you're struggling. Wraith is not a chase killer, it's a hit and run killer. Getting a sneak attack on survivors and immediately cloaking to injure someone else. If you're chasing and not trapping survivors between pallets and using an uncloak speed boost to M1 someone, you're doing it wrong.
Dead Hard is no different than BL, SB & Lithe. They all come with a requirement and personally I would rather have a survivor with Dead Hard than a survivor with Lithe that can vault a window/pallet and immediately lose chase. At Rank 1, I rarely ever go against a survivor that uses Dead Hard to get to a pallet before I can down them.
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Yeah, actually you did. I sort of copied off of that forgetting who originally said this because they were good points. Sorry about that, I'll give you credit.
Here is what you said a few comments ago.
"Yes because unlike the other exhaustion perks, it's unconditional. Lithe requires a window, Balanced requires a falling spot, and Sprint Burst needs to be saved by walking around slowly or 99ing it."
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If you think survivors should be allowed a perk that helps them to extend chase.
Why are killers allowed to have many perks and add ons that help to reduce chase length.
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SB. lithe, and BL extends the chase by gaining a great amount of distance, SB does it right away and the other's do it upon a condition.
Dead hard is not used the same way as the distance you get with it is so small it barely extends the chase which is why it is used to get to vaults/pallets. If survivors you go against are not using it that way at tiles then they simply don't know how to use the perk.
The baiting it out argument is ONLY true in the open as well as what killer you are playing, once they can use it to get to a vault/pallet as most killers you can't do anything and that amount of time you have extended the chase is greater then the other exhaustion perks. Lithe is probably situationally stronger IF the killer messes up and doesn't follow the most optimal way to reach you and even then against certain killers lithe is out preformed greatly by dead hard.
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Doubtful
And tbf DS and OoO's nerf's are justified.
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Dead hard is a killer perk half the time
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I admit DH is very powerful for people who know how to route. Those who know where every pallet and window is they will make great use of this perk. As for baiting a swing I find it is very unreliable for strictly that. Ever since servers got here it is really hard to avoid a swing out in the open with DH. Before the servers it was pretty much a guaranteed miss. I remember the days of people rushing to an open gate and even if they were injured it took 2 swings to down them. Most killers assume the survivor is running it, like DS. So they bait it out of instinct. Lately I've been using SB. When I am repairing a gen often the killer gets close enough to me to land a hit before I get to a nearby pallet. Thus cutting the chase in half before it actually begins. I like having SB for the extra insurance to reach something before he hits me. My other issue is killers with a one shot like Billy or Bubba. They won't even M1 me. They will only try to chainsaw me. Thus when I am hooked and saved I don't want to be healed so I can use DH. Id rather just bring a different exhaustion perk.
Post edited by EvilJoshy on1 -
If dead hard is really powerful for people who know how to use it, it seems like pretty much everyone doesn't know how to use it. I've lost barely any chases because of dead hard, but I've lost a ton to lithe.
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Oh yeah its just a case that after devs revealed that OoO and DS would be nerfed everyone started crying about a perk that doesn't even work most of the times.
Next is adrenaline, then bt, then ub. Or maybe nerf power struggle which according to a lot of people here would've become problematic yet literally noone uses it.
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Alternatively, just substitute Windows of Opportunity for knowledge of map layout.
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"Oh, no! this guy's running Windows of Opportunity!" - No Killer, ever.
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Well, yeah. Killers aren't going to know that a Survivor is running Windows of Opportunity. :P
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tbh, Windows of Opportunity can be a nice perk solo.
Let's you know which areas still have pallets since you have no other way to know if your teammates already used of the pallets in an area.
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OoO works in SWF groups, and it works too well. The fact that 4 people on comms who are most likely good can immediately know your location or what you are doing especially as hag and trapper is ridiculous. It also doesn't have any cooldown or restrictions.
DS works even without it being there because it creates an obsession, meaning the killer has to assume that everyone has DS or be severely punished for it. And it doesn't have to be used for it to work since the killer will most likely tunnel you. This is not taking into account that it can be used offensively. You could take a protection hit or even two after healing for a teammate and do it because you still have DS active.
Adrenaline is pretty balanced since all generators need to be completed for it to get used, and it only happens once.
BT is a perk that is a band-aid fix for camping and also helps with tunneling. It also promotes survivors rushing hooks and never going for safe unhooks. I honestly think it is bad for new players because they never learn to safely unhook.
Unbreakable, I am not sure. It is powerful, but I am just unsure whether or not it needs a nerf. I am pretty sure it is also a band-aid fix to slugging though.
Power struggle is very situational and you practically need flip-flop to use it properly. The survivor trying to get it to work is sacrificing 2 perk slots for something that might not happen.
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I'm waiting for the buff to Open-Handed so that Windows can consistently see available pallets within a 36-meter radius.
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Exactly, the fact that lithe and BL have conditions automatically make them a little harder to use.
SB on the other hand, can be used assuming that the survivor using it isn't already exhausted. If they are always waiting to use it when the killer comes for them, they aren't using it properly. It is used not just to run away from the killer, but to get to teammates or generators faster. If you walk to only use it in a chase, then you are severely reducing the amount of work you can get done since you are walking the whole time.
So if a survivor is using SB properly, they should be exhausted more often than not.
The baiting out argument is not only true when survivors are in the open, there are times in a loop where you have little time to see the survivor and you have to just swing if you mindgamed them right (i.e they vaulted a pallet that you don't have LOS to but can be mindgamed). It is hard to explain and it would be better to show you through video.
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I would consider that more of a mindgame then baiting it out since the survivor at loops like that can still react and move to the side of the pallet they came from then drop it or not vault it.
baiting it out is more of forcing them to use it, at loops if they used it to get to the pallet/vault it wasn't baited out (depending on the killer) as your not guaranteed a hit so i would classify that as a mindgame unless of course they wouldn't be to avoid getting hit anyway but i would still consider that a mindgame.
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OoO is getting a buff. No idea why people keep saying it is a nerf unless they count fixing an exploit nerfs.
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It needs to carry an actual downside. When you use it, you become broken for 2 minutes, this timer is paused if you are hooked.
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yup
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Extending a chase, you mean the very thing that ALL exhaustion perks are meant to do? NO WAY.
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nah u cant use dh to its full potential like that and yeah once u know how to use it to its max potential its almost a free health state
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Why not? Windows of Opportunity lets me see which pallets are still open so I can plan my route such that I can make the pallet with or without DH.
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I didnt disagreed with u just saying that to use dh to its max potential it requires a lot of knowledge which obviously cant come all with just a perk
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Yeah, fair enough.
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That's a good compromise too.
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Thank you, friend.
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