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NOED exists to punish survivors for gen rushing
Survivors love to hate NOED, and call it a reward for losing. But in the same breath, they say that DS needs to exist to punish killers for tunneling.
That same logic applies to NOED.
It's there so the killer can punish survivors for bad behavior. If they would just spread out their attention across both generators and totems, instead of tunneling the generators out of the game, they wouldn't ever encounter NOED as a problem.
But it's the killer's job to pressure survivors to make them leave generators, you say. Well, it's the survivor's job to avoid getting hooked. A good way to do that is to be someplace other than at the generator when the killer comes by to check; what better place than cleansing a totem?
But tunneling is no fun for the survivor who is killed, you say. Well, having gens tunneled out of the game denies the killer the 12-hook game everyone seems to think is the proper way for a killer to play; that's no fun for the killer.
But NOED just rewards killers for bad play, because it only procs when they're losing, you say. Except if a survivor played better they wouldn't ever have a chance to use DS -- it's a reward for losing.
But generators are a survivors's objective, you say. Well, hooks are the killer's objective.
But you can't be sure that all the other survivors cleansed totems, and it wastes too much time walking around looking for totems, you say. Well, it wastes a lot of time walking around to multiple generators to check if a survivor is there, and a killer doesn't have teammates to rely on to do their job for them.
Really it just boils down to the fact that survivors hate NOED because they were close to success, but then this irritating perk procs and undoes the results of your hard work, leaving you feeling like you just had the carpet yanked out from under you. Which is exactly what DS does to killers.
Comments
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I mean...it doesn't stop me from gen rushing. I do all the gens and then I break one totem.....
I just remember most totem spawns or their locations as I play the game so I can check quickly later on. Even easier if I have hunch or a map equipped which are easy enough to have.
I guess it slows me down a few seconds, and 14 more to break it but I mean, if that costs a perk slot I have no issue with it. Sure it demolishes a lot of solo queues though, but I mean, what doesn't?
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Hot take: Noed exists to help bad killers feel good about themselves and not abandon the game so that BHVR can sell you more useless cosmetics.
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That's another way it's similar to DS: it doesn't actually do anything to prevent the thing it supposedly punishes; I don't know too many killers who get hit with DS and then don't immediately tunnel that player out of the game.
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Another similarity: DS helps bad survivors feel better about themselves and not abandon the game (because seriously, queue times are ridiculous) so that BHVR can sell you more useless cosmetics.
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I mean it depends. Sometimes if a survivor does something really dumb like jump in a locker to FORCE me to eat a DS but it's a bad spot to do it in, I will eat that DS and ream them out of the game for it. If they just let me slug them they'll get picked up generally and I'll leave them be, or if they even just run normally I will leave them be.
Thing is, it does stall tunneling someone. It gives you a second chance in a chase if you are smart about using it. I run it a fair bit and even if it gets nerfed, the situations that I have used it in that it has saved my life will all still work. So it does work to some extent, but a lot of people also just abuse it and blow it early and just later on well now they CAN be tunneled legitly because they squandered it instead.
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Gen rush exists because gen's speed is too quick and unless you use gen defense perks or go against people who mess around and deliberately are looking to get chased or are overly immersed they're going to fly.
The fact that noed can get a killer to go from no kills to possibly three to four is hilarious. Very unhealthy for the game. Decisive especially in its upcoming incarnation is literally for anti tunnel. And you can at least ignore decisive in some ways like if I'm near the person who gets saved I will go down them and just leave them and go after someone fresh just to eliminate them temporarily.
Noed on the other hand if you're doing what you're supposed to which is due gens it comes out of nowhere and surprises you. Like I said every time I see one of these threads it would be less scummy if when activated everyone was notified that they are exposed similarly to when Michael goes into tier three. then at the very least it would add an element to the end game where you have to be sneaky and hunt for the totem and the killer then has to decide do I go linger around my totem or do I go back and forth to the doors.
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That's one way to deal with it, though some people just can't bear the idea that they might not be actually threatened by the killer.
In any case, most people don't have enough memory capability or skill to do so, which means they kinda have to do totems before all gens are done and apparently it's VERY hard for 4 people to do 5 totems.
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If they have ruin and undying in the same build with noed it can be a real problem to do so since the dulls give away your location.
Generally though, it's not too hard to do a totem as you come across it but the thing is if doing that you only get 2, 3 or 4 of the totems it only takes one for noed; and if you are not in a 4 man group how do you know how many totems have been done? Outside of like a map or detectives hunch.
That is why I think that communication hotkey scottjund suggested would help SO much. Someone selecting "Breaking a totem" would help a lot.
Some totems are very well hidden too, I mean you can only look around for so long, before it becomes a hinderance and just eating the noed and probably losing one person becomes the better option. I can get why that is frustrating for survivors, but I mean it's what the perk is supposed to do and honestly if they camp they'll probably get that one person anyways so it's not a huge difference.
Hunches exists and so do maps and loot perks and plenty of reasons to take one instead of a more meta perk so I think it's fair overall. The issues circle back to solo queue however where coordination is so difficult. I think we need better solo queue communication options, and noed would become less overbearing in solos.
"Hey, I am looking for a totem" after someone was hit with noed and is being hooked.
Someone else "hey, I am breaking the totem! (Active)"
Well then I know to keep the killer busy for a second so he can break that totem, or to search the area that guy is NOT in so I can cover more ground, or so many things that would be more helpful than blind guessing.
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I think NOED exists to make endgame builds viable.
Because NOED gives endgame builds the snowball potantional it needs.
Otherwise it would Just make the time longer before survivor can escapes (for example remember me or bloodwarden or even that new killer perk).
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I know you are speaking in bad faith, but do you mean the new DS or the old?
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I think NOED is fine. Do bones.
I play survivor probably about 65% of the time, and the times when NOED comes into play it's because gens went fast and nobody bothered to do totems.
The thing the new DS has going for it is that it's going to be much less likely that you're going to come across that same survivor 50 seconds later and get hit with DS -- if that's the case they didn't do anything that while time so it's no longer really a worthwhile to abuse it.
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>If they have ruin and undying in the same build with noed it can be a real problem to do so since the dulls give away your location.
You just don't cleanse when you don't know that killer ISN'T near you to stop you or that he isn't busy with something else to switch.
Otherwise it's even more rewarding and necessary to deal with totems, as you'd have to cleanse/check all 5 of them, so once you deal with ruin&undying you also get rid of noed which is a huge win-win for you.
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I mean that is the goal yes, but it's harder to do in reality. That's why undying was nerfed in the first place, soon as you got on a totem *angry chainsaw noises from across the map in your direction*. It isn't so bad with some killers, but others it can be difficult. (also, see my previous posts above about dull totems, generally it's not the best way to deal with noed anyways unless you can coordinate it properly)
Yeah that would help. Though, I think if we had the system like ScottJund (and others before) have suggested instead or in addition to, not only would it help with that but like, almost every other annoying aspect of solo queue. Not all of them, but a lot.
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I frequently take a pink map and Small Game and end up spending THE ENTIRE MATCH looking for all 5 totems.
I rarely get to find them all. Mostly I end up de-pipping with something like 13kbp. Hardly worth the effort where other Survivors are getting 32k for sitting on gens.
The amount of matches that line up with a Killer with Noed and all 5 totems done is hilariously small. In fact I think it has only happened once since 2016.
What would be great is if like gens which has a counter telling you how many there are left. Is if Totems also had this counter so your not running around pointlessly if someone has completed the 5th to your 4 totems.
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I didn't ask anything except if your statement was about the old DS or the new. Which was it about?
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Gen rushing isn't a thing except in very extreme circumstances.
NOED doesn't punish genrushing, actual genrushing means the survivors woildnt go back for their teammate even without NOED. The perk exists to punish solo/casual survivors for trying to play the game.
Edit: Seriously, stop trying to claim that survivors doing their objective is evil. There is no such thing as "tunneling" gens. That's just BS that certain people (who are super fun at parties) came up with to justify playing cruelly in every single trial.
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As someone who has played both survivor and killer (more killer) at rank 1, I find NOED to be a huge crutch. NOED teaches killers that they can not learn to pressure generators better, and just play relaxed and if gens (are completed, regardless of speed), they are rewarded for it.
I've suggested a re-vamp of the Hex system, where all lit totems are removed, increase the number of totems total, and turn Hex perks into scaled power based on the number of totems up, as this would be a perfect, incentivized secondary objective system.
In the case of NOED, if all totems are up, the killer would have X number of charges 1-hit downs using M1 LUNGE only. For every totem removed, the killer would lose a charge (or charges, subject to balancing). This change would punish survivors for truly rushing gens (to the exclusion of totems), while not punishing all survivors (and rewarding lazy killers) for simply finishing gens (in whatever time frame) and missing maybe one totem. Under this system, if some of the totems were cleansed, the killer would be limited in how many (if any) they could knock down once gens were complete.
Hell, in the above case, they could even make NOED a standard part of the game, forcing a totem risk-vs-reward dynamic and strongly encouraging secondary objective completion.
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If people can't do bones, they deserve to get hit with NOED. I only play solo survivor and rush gens. If I get hit by NOED, it's mine and my teams fault, not the killer.
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That made me laugh "Tunnelling gens". I can just imagine a killer main saying "Stop gen tunnelling". You do have a point though, killers shouldn't hate survivors for doing gens, there are many perks for gens as many perks to stop gens.
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You don't understand the concept of "tunneling". Trying to apply it to anything other than the act of BMing a survivor is disingenuous and designed specifically to justify playing extremely lazily when alternative, significantly better playstyles exist that aren't you being a BMing killer.
Tunneling is the worst thing that can happen to a survivor. How is it so hard to understand? You are literally denying 4 people of a trial because you want to be lazy.
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People are going to complain about noed. I personally don't use it, and never have used it, but it's not hard to counter noed if you know all the totems spots in the game. I got use to knowing them all, because of ruin/undying whenever I was playing survivor, and I never had a problem countering noed even now. It's not a bad perk, and anyone who really say's otherwise is overhyping the fact that they simply don't know totem spots. It's not hard to bring a map or detectives or whatever or just remember the totems you walked past while in a round.
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I'd buy that argument if it wasn't almost always used by a camping tunneling killer.
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You spend a lot of time dealing with t3 spirits who still use NOED, do you?
And of course totems are survivors' objectives. That's why you get bp for clearing them. They are secondary objectives, but still objectives
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12 hooks are not the killer's objective. The killer kills. Enjoy your tunnel.
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So just do bones. Why are you denying the killer a trial just because you're lazy?
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Well that's why we just need totem counter.
As for "angry chainsaw noises", this just usually means instead of "braking totem" button you have "interrupt killer from whatever he was doing" button. If killer has 2 totems to defend, it becomes pretty difficult for him to defend them if 2 survivors figure out they can tap totems/sit on them a bit to make killer go in their direction and then run away.
That's the reason I'm never playing with totem builds, as it's just awful when survivors make you run between totems or give up on defending them.
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BP does not contribute to winning a trial. I don't get BP for running a Victor for example. Does that mean I'm not doing the objective?
Totems do not contribute to powering the exit gates. Generators do.
If uncleansed totems meant the gates took longer to open for example would make it a secondary objective. Currently there is no benefit to cleansing dull totems or even some hex's given the circumstances (even ruin!).
If the killer runs NOED they might get their one kill if I don't find the totem in time but you bet your ass you're getting Entity Displeased.
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Mate you claim gen rushing means the survivor team gens and not stuffing around. That's good. That's what a survivor team should be doing. That's up to the killer to macro.
You don't need to dumb anything down for anyone. I've seen your posts. I would say you know a quarter of the game compared to MadLordJack and that's being generous.
I've seen countless killers tunnel and lose because they're not applying pressure elsewhere on the map. It isn't a golden ticket to winning every match. Sometimes it's the correct decision but that's not where genuine good survivors get pissed off at tunnelling.
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Yes but no.
While it can serve a purpose when it comes to genrushing, the killer can just play outright poor rather than being genrushed and grab an undeserved kill or two due to Noed.
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That's a fun definition you've given yourself there, doesn't fit reality or the multiple times the devs themselves have stated the totems are a secondary objective, but at least you have a reason.
You get bp for chase, escape and kicking victor, so yes, "running" him does give you bp. (Unless you mean running to the edge of the map with him on you, which isn't an objective at all, just taking advantage of poor killer design)
The benefit to doing hex totems is to remove that hex from the match, if you don't feel like the hex is powerful enough to risk doing the totem to remove it, that's up to you, but doesn't actually change anything. (Except to show how weak the hex perks are and why they all should be buffed)
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Don't play coy about what I meant about Victor. You don't get bp when victor is chasing you - it doesn't count as chase. Again, with the NOED argument you had with me. You have wrong information. Can you please for once go and ######### play the game before arguing with me. This is the second time you've gotten simple game mechanics wrong.
It doesn't matter what the devs say. If they say jump, who says how high? Exactly at least I have a reason. They can only change objectives with game mechanics. Not public speech.
Note the term 'circumstances' I used. Obviously I know when I should be cleansing a hex totem.
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How the hell do you not get bp from escaping victor? That has to be a bug. It's literally running from the killer. Regardless you get bp for kicking him.
So it doesn't matter what the devs say about the game they made? Yeah, that sure makes sense. I mean, what would they know about the game they designed and created, right?
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Just responding to your edit here. I don't want to entertain this conversation further. Was just annoyed at your snide response to someone addressing the cancerous tunnelling (you know the premeditated type just to make the game as unfun for others as possible).
I actually wouldn't mind a gen speed increase but unfortunately it's not feasible because it doesn't make tunnelling any less effective. I'm aware and so are other people how effective tunnelling when done correctly. I'm not arguing that.
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Bug or not (pretty sure not a bug because there is no TR). I'm exposing your bias which you keep accidentally fumbling out. You clearly don't play survivor enough to credit talking about survivor.
Don't be so naive.
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I'm sorry I don't know all the ins and outs of the newest fully released, and by far least played killer in the game. I don't pick twins (because they suck) and have only had enough matches against them to know that the timing and position for that kick may be the most finicky thing in the game. I don't have time to watch streamers all day, I work for a living, so I can only speak from my own experience.
Unlike you, I don't claim to know more about the game than the people who created it, so when they label an item in their game a "secondary objective" I believe them. That's the point at hand here, not whatever is going on with Victor's ongoing saga of uselessness.
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Mate I'm a full timer too. This game + runescape is what keeps me occupied outside work.
If you don't know - DON'T POST! Streams aren't a substitute for doing it yourself. So... do it! Play! I'd be so embarrassed if I was caught out for stating wrong facts about the game on the forums. Just play the game!
It is that simple!
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If it was major #########, I would care. But the things you're so excited you "got" me on is minor as hell.
Again, back on whether or not a totem is a secondary objective, why do you believe you are right and the devs are wrong? You said earlier that you "know when I should be cleansing a hex totem" which is probably going to be devour, as you've said you don't care about ruin, do you consider it a secondary objective then? Or what would you call it, if not that?
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No, NOED doesn't exist for ''punishing'' genrush, it was never stated anywhere that that was its objective. The ''problem'' with NOED isnt the perk itself, its the unhealthy gameplay it benefits, or to compensate for bad matchmaking. (Unhealthy gameplay being camping and tunneling someone out of the game at 5 gens, although its a game strategie I find it still unhealthy)
There's rare situations when the killer actually played good and still had NOED, which I dont mind it that much, because it didnt came exactly as an clutch and if it gets the killer a kill, then he deserves it.
Also, if NOED is being used in killers that are extremely strong in 1v1 then theres really not much a soloq can do. Deathslinger for example: most of the community agrees and says over and over again that although he's strong af in chases, he's extremely weak in the 4v1, admitting if u dont sit on gens (or ''genrush'') u will mostly have no chance, AND, u cant sit on gens and look/do 5 dull totems at the same time. This situation isnt exactly a PROBLEM but it isnt used to 'punish' for genrushing when that is the only thing the team can do to get a chance. It's kinda the same for the camp and tunnel, the counter to that (or to a camping bubba) is genrush and, again, u cant do 5 totems while doing so.
And can we PLEASE stop with the poor statement of ''this perk exists to PUNISH that'' bro, this is a game, u r supposed to have fun, u arent here to PUNISH someone for using something thats in the game, wth? Perks r designed to HELP u, so stop using them as a mentality that its to punish the other side, thats just childish, toxic and sad (the main problem with this community in the 1st place).
Also, genrush is almost only possible in swf, or in rare situations that somehow a soloq manage to do so. Theres a difference between genrushing and being efficient in doing gens, which is about the same difference between tunneling someone or being efficient in chases/kills and still getting hit with decisive when u really didnt tunnel, which is why DS is getting nerfed.
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You think I'm excited. Yes mate I'm currently carressing my supple nipples at the thought of your mistake.
My original statement to you was defining objectives as to what directly allows you to escape. The reason why people leave dull totems is for this exact reason. (high level of course)
'probably going to be devour, as you've said you don't care about ruin'. That is such shallow analysis. It's completely up to the pressure the killer has if ruin needs to go or not. Devour goes too once you've gotten your first exposed hit. I can't count the amount of matches my team has escaped with ruin still remaining. Many of the games would result in an L wasting the time cleansing. It depends on the circumstance. Note the word I used this time please.
I think the more correct term is optional objective. That's what it really is and what I'm trying to say.
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I said excited, not horned up, jeez :p
Seriously though, devour is the only respectable hex left. New Undying still wrecks you in the right combo, but lullaby is a waste of time. If you have a good hex in mind I would love to hear it, as I'm still a bit sad that I can't come up with a good "Hex Roulette" build because I can't think of a good enough 4th perk (ptb killer has one, but I'm a console scrub, so no clue if it is any good or not) if you've had so many matches where you've had a 4e without having to get rid of ruin that you can't count them, then clearly it's not doing a good job of hexing you. Perhaps I just have an inflated view of how powerful a hex should be, but I think any perk that can be completely removed from the match by one side, should be powerful enough to make it a perk you very much want to remove each match.
That's my argument for NOED as well, I don't use it because to me it's not worth the gamble when I can bring a perk that will help ensure the 5th gen never gets finished, and on survivor I run inner strength, so I rarely see it, so I feel I've got a fairly unbiased view on the perk. My view is that it should be left alone, because it is a gamble and should feel from a survivor side like a pants wetting moment when it pops. The only change I would like to see is maybe a notification when it pops, primarily because I think it would help in the wetting.
Ok, so what, to you would be a secondary objective?
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I was just joking. Haha
Ruin is very strong. The beauty of current ruin is if you're applying a lot of pressure, survivors have to cleanse it! That's why I am saying I don't always need to cleanse it. Some players default to picking gen regression even though they're not very good at killer. That's what I mean. The time it takes to cleanse it is not worth getting off gens for. Against that thousand hour spirit of course I will be cleansing ruin. If devour doesn't get to 3 stacks - I'm not wasting time cleansing it. If you don't have pressure and are running hex perks, then I'm not cleansing them and if I'm in a swf then I'm telling them not to do it either. Vice versa and yes the hex will have to be cleansed.
My view on NOED is it's not an overpowered perk. In fact, it's hindering your killer playing. My gripe and why I argue against it is that it's an rng element that determines whether it produces that one kill. I really don't like players getting advantages that takes zero effort to setup (which is also why I'm in favour for a dead hard change). It's like old ruin. Was old ruin overpowered? No. It's objectively weaker than current ruin at high level. It's about who the perk is being used by. Old ruin used to destroy low ranks and the killer didn't have to do anything where at high level rank one people could hit the hex skill check consistenly rendering it useless.
EDIT: I guarantee you this new hex is meta and will be picked as often as bamboozle. Without even testing it I can confirm this.
To me a secondary objective would be dull totems reduce the gate open time and/or increase the egc. Something that circumstancially requires survivors to do something on top of generators to increase the likelihood of escape.
tl;dr You're not wrong to expect a hex to be more powerful than a standard perk but make no mistake, it requires the killer to actually contribute to it's effectiveness!
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It punishes solo queue players exponentially worse than SWFs.
If it started off the match as a burning totem, then it would do the same job of punishing survivors for gen rushing. There's no need for it to be the only totem that isn't burning at the beginning of the match.
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I have always agreed that both are a reward for losing.
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I mean, killers get called out for doing their objective fast(tunneling). That's the survivor's fault for not knowing how to ""LOOP"".
Regarding NOED it sucks to encounter as a survivor. I am actually a bit enamored with one suggestion in this thread that the NOED charges equals the totems left in the game. That way you can actually reduce the amount of snowballing NOED can produce.
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Why wouldn't you tunnel anyway with gen speed slowed down? It's still the tactically correct move.
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I don't disagree, but you can't say NOED is well designed if you give DS, DH, BT, UD and basically any other "Second Chance" perks criticism.
Likewise if you defend these Survivor meta perks that basically carry you through bad play, you don't have a leg to stand on in criticizing NOED.
NOED allows a killer to play like garbage, yet make up for it in the end. It's basically a Second Chance perk for killer.
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But mostly punishes survivors for doing gens.
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Oh ok, gen slowdown plus other changes. I'd doubt there's a way to stop it, besides making Borrowed Time essentially built into all players.
Interestingly, I might go in the other direction. Make the games much quicker than they are. Speed up gens but hook someone twice and they're out, for example (not thought though, just an example of what I mean). I'd like to eliminate the boring games where nothing happens. I think that's just the design of the game needing an overhaul though, haha.
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But tunneling matters less if the games are quicker. If you only need three gens to power the gates, and they're done quicker, the killer can't stay near a hook, he's got to try and get someone off a gen or leave with one kill.
And if the killer is quicker and more deadly, they're more fun to take out and hunt rather than camp or tunnel because they're so awkward with weak powers.
This is all just spitballed ideas, more of a premise than a pitch, but that's what I mean when I say I think the whole game needs a redesign to be consistently fun.
Your statement that slowing down the game makes tunneling less of a necessity might be true, but I don't see how it still isn't the best play (it just makes it more likely the killer will win, unless they are altruistic and decide "Eh, I won't tunnel.").
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