What are your issues with the introduction of a 5th perk slot?
Heyo! I have seen numerous 5th perk slot threads over the past several months, and most of them have people replying and saying that they would be concerned with the balance of the game.
I'd like to develop this idea further with this community and find some accompanying changes to the game that would implement the 5th perk slot while addressing people's concerns. My hope is that if we can create something good enough, the devs might actually considering implementing it!
So! Please share your concerns and suggestions with us! I'm just going to address one blatant issue that would probably crash the game if it were not addressed:
A 5 totem perk build with Haunted Ground would most likely cause one perk to be deactivated at the start of the match or even a game crash. Adding a sixth totem to every map would buff NOED which I know is something that is not wanted at all. So, just make Haunted Ground only light 1 hex totem if there are 5 hex perks in your build or no extra dull totem if you break it with Undying active.
All input is greatly appreciated. If you want to make a wall of text with changes, go for it! If you want to bounce ideas off of people, go for it! Let's have a good discussion and try to make something really great
Comments
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The idea is good, but it would lead to too much homogeneity IMO.
the idea of allocating more slots to create unique builds is commendable, but for most of the community it would mean just equipping the 5th most powerful perk in the slot and that's it.
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Survivors already have a 5th perk slot. SWF on coms.
It would make survivors and some killers way to strong.
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Honestly, a 5th perk slot would benefit survivors much more than the killer.
Imagine:
Dead Hard,Iron Will,DS,BT,Unbreakable
No thanks 🤢
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I share some of others' balance-related skepticism with a fifth perk slot. Could you share why you want to have a fifth perk slot added? More room for synergy?
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oh here's a little idea for how the 5 perks would be displayed in the bottom-right in-game
Yeah, and that's where the main balancing issue lays imo. However, I believe that we would see the meta slaves deviate slightly from the norm and the meta would become more versatile.
For example, if I really really wanted to win, I'd run Adrenaline, Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, DS, and Unbreakable. But with DS getting nerfed, that's really not too bad. I have all the tools I need, but not much utility elsewhere. There are some diminishing returns here. So, I'd ditch DS and Borrowed Time or Unbreakable, and now I have 3 great perks and 2 free slots. Now I can synergize 2 perks together, such as Self Care + Botany, or Unbreakable + Tenacity, or just slap on some good and slept on standalone perks like Iron Will, WGLF, We'll Make It, Alert, Bond, whatever.
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DS, UB, SG, DH or Deliverance, BT or Deliverance.
You will need a Quantum physicist to determine the smallness of that pp.
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More room for synergy and the allowance for more fun, viable builds are the reasons I want to see a fifth perk slot. Plus, there are so many perks that go unused because it's hard to find room in builds that don't leave you completely exposed to gens popping too fast or, i guess the killer in general. Another perk slot would lessen the value of each individual perk slot and would allow for more experimentation.
To sum it all up: It would be fun and a much needed change to the old perk system.
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People say it's cool and good for more versatily perk loadouts.
In reality it's just gonna get used so people can equip a fifth meta perk. I have friends that run IW, BT, Exhaustion perk and has to choose between either DS or UB. If they got a 5th perk slot, they'd just equip both. Only way I can see it working out, is if the fifth perk has to be a personal perk, but even then it will just create meta survivors.
For killers it'd also just be a fifth slowdown perk. Ruin Undying, Corrupt, Pop and BBQ would probably the new meta killer loadout.
It sounds like a cool idea, but will just be used for running an extra meta perk
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maybe if solo can only do it and killers with swf it be more broken then it already is.
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I don't want survivors to have even more at their disposal and i don't want killers to have builds that are too strong as in they have really good chase and antigen or just complete antigen.
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One idea I have to dis-incentivize running multiple perks like DS and UB is to make another category similar to Exhausted. Something that would last the whole match after you used a perk that inflicted it on you. This would make it so that people like your friends could still run both for consistency's sake, but it wouldn't be more oppressive to the killer than it is now.
Thoughts?
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My issues are the game is not balanced for 5 perks so an introduction of an extra perk would require insane amounts of rebalancing, the combos both sides could pull with 5 perk lots can be totally gamebreaking.
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People need fewer perks, not more. Thr more powerful ones should take up two, maybe three slots.
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I like this idea because if we added more gens to complete, both killer and survivors could get a 5th perk slot it would be balanced out. However, the thing is people may use overpowered perks to counter one's gameplay as a whole. So I would prefer a third add-on slot (even with the add-on I would think there should be more gens).
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Do y'all have any specific builds in mind that you think would be absolutely broken with 1 extra perk? I know that any additional perk on an already good build would make it a stronger build, but is there anything you'd think would be too oppressive for either side?
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Broken combos that would require a massive effort to nerf perks or redesign the whole loadout system, which would be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
Use the search feature if you want to learn more, this topic has been discussed to death.
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The main reason I created this thread is to try and work something out with the community. My problem is that most threads discussing a 5th perk slot just have a bunch of people saying "It would be incredibly unbalanced" and listing 5 meta survivor perks. Even if it requires new mechanics like another exhaustion-esk system or sweeping nerfs, I want to try my best to create a patch that implements the 5th slot in a fun and balanced way.
I want a proper discussion, bouncing ideas off of each other, and painting that entire picture so that we can pinpoint what exactly needs to be changed to make this work. I know that we can do it and I know that you in particular are a very thoughtful person that can provide some great insight on what perks and builds would cause the game's balance to take a nose-dive. I would greatly appreciate if you would join me and help us figure this out
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My issues are a reduction in variety and the fact that the strongest builds will just become a lot stronger due to being allowed an extra free addition to the build.
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I'm good, one of the reasons I don't play killer that much or at all anymore is because of all the second chance perks I have to deal with. Adding more on top of that would just be the nail in the coffin.
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My current view is that 4 perk slots limits variety since each slot is so important that you can't experiment with stuff or risk running mid-tier perks or synergies. There would definitely be a similar meta to what it we have today, but I don't think a 5th slot would push already strong meta survivor builds into something much more oppressive. But, I could be missing some important detail which is why I created this discussion!
Can you think of some build(s) that would be much more oppressive than their 4 perk counterparts? For either side? I see you around here a lot and I really value your input
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I'll say that corrupt + ruin is a terrible combo. You generally want one or the other. If they you run corrupt they can't repair the first few gens without potentially exposing themselves to the killer. So if you can't do gens, what do you do instead? Totems. Probably thought the meta build would be:
Thrilling + ruin + undying + surge (or pop) + some sort of tracking perk.
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This isn't even a Survivor vs. Killer thing for me. If you add an extra slot, sure you could say "oh, it allows us to try more combinations of perks and stuff", but in reality what will happen is that the meta builds will look a little bit more like each other because there will now be less of a need to make a choice between two different perks.
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You're missing the point.
I do not believe this can be done without either seriously ######### up the game's balance, or requiring so many reworks and balance patches that the rest of the game would be set back years. The game was designed around four and only four perks per build. It's built into the perk system, it's part of the core game balance.
I have yet to read a single suggestion, that I can recall, which proposes any way in which this could be achieved without screwing up the game. Doesn't matter if the perk is restricted to a teachable, a Hex perk, an Exhaustion perk, or something else, because the problem is having five perks to begin with, which is simply not what the game is designed for.
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I would just disable all perks for one or two weeks and see how it's going.
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Nah people would just use the next strongest perk and we already can barelly keep the meta builds under control.
If you really want more variety introducing half perks would probably be better. Make some of the weaker perks half perks and only half perks can go in the 5th perk slot.
And make some of the stronger perks 1,5 perk slots that disable the 5th slot.
Now you have the choice of running many small benifits or a couple of large ones and you can play with that. People probably don't want to give up dead hard for botony knowledge but will be more tempted if they can trade dead hard for botony and empathy combined
Would take ages to implent though so it will be a fantasy i think
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Give solo queue players a 5th perk slot that must be an aura perk like bond, empathy, etc. This helps close the swf vs non-swf information gap. And killers likely need a slight buff to compensate. Killers and swf are still limited to 4 perks.
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I understand.
I am simply trying to pool everyone's ideas together to find a way to make it balanced. I understand that it would require a lot of changes to the game, but even if it would be impossible to implement without a massive amount of time and effort on the dev's part, I want to figure something out. Think of this like a big, hypothetical question with a discussion revolving around it.
I don't want to know IF we can get it in, because I have very little hope that this idea will ever make it into even a test build. I just want to know HOW we can implement it in the best way possible without creating a disgusting new meta.
I enjoy theory crafting and coming up with new ideas and buffs and nerfs to games that I like, and Dead by Daylight is a game I REALLY like! This is interesting and fun for me to do.
If you wanna join in and throw me some ideas or provide any more insight, I'd greatly appreciate it. You don't have to if you don't want to of course, so no pressure or worries
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I'm not trying to make it a survivor vs killer thing either. Sorry if it came off like that. I just want to figure out a few things:
What would the homogenized builds look like? I think I have a good idea of what it would look like for survivors (BT, UB, SB/DH, Adrenaline, DS?IW?), but I don't really have anything for killer other than ruin + undying which is already a thing.
What's the possibility that a new meta will arise? We might see a resurgence of Self Care since you can use botany right alongside it and still have 3 more perk slots.
What would be the most unbalanced and/or unfun builds to go against, and how can we best balance them?
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Thrilling is reeeeally bad with Ruin, and Surge only works well on some killer. I think one of the most deadly builds would be Undying + Ruin + Tinkerer + Surveillance + Surge or Haunted Grounds if it's an M1 killer and Infectious Fright or... something else if not
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I think the main opposition is that the devs want to make sure the game isn't too reliant on perks. They want to ensure it's still possible to play without perks, to make sure the game isn't too punishing for beginners or those without access to DLC's. They're meant to be fun little buffs and boons, not the path to success. Adding another perk slot would only exacerbate this issue.
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Having more fun little buffs and boons is the exact reasons why I'd love to see this in action! Perks like Botany Knowledge, Solidarity, Iron Will, Appraisal, Fire Up, Brutal Strength, and Agitation are some of my favorite perks in terms of design. Not too oppressive, powerful in some situations or when synergizing with other perks, and excellent perks to build builds around. I'd like to see that a lot more of these kinds of perks in the game and they're what I'd be using a lot more of if there were a 5th perk slot available.
Having a blanket nerf patch on the top-end perks that are less like a boon and more like a superpower would be the best way to make this work imo. I'd also like to make more incentives to synergize.
Remove UB's recovery speed boost and give it to Tenacity, for an example of a top-end nerf and an incentive to synergize. Make Adrenaline only heal you when injured or downed, reduce Tinkerer's undetectable time, and have Pop Goes the Weasel make you kick a generator slower when it's active. Nerfs like that too, little tune-downs for the over-tuned perks.
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This is how I feel. As a killer it would be nice to have a 5th perk but I feel the cons outweigh the pros. The survivors will in essence get 20 perks instead of 16.
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Admittedly, I've spent the longest time running a meme build, so it's not really clear to me what's just generally considered meta among most/all Killers (especially in the wake of the Undying nerf)/
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Man. I desperately want a 5th perk slot to happen.
Shake up the game already. More potential for crazy builds and variety. Get some former players back again to see what that looks like.
This game has an insane amount of perks for the 4 slots you get & it's such a shame that so many are just left behind because they're only good and not great. Even that tiny bit more wiggle room to toss in something fun massively helps.
Obviously a lot of the pure meta players will just add another meta perk--but that's the status quo anyway. We get the same boring metas match to match already. Might as well just remove perks if that's too much of a problem. At the very least, that 5th perk would freshen things up for a while.
While it's almost certainly gonna screw balance in some ways with new crazy combinations, that's kinda what makes it so exciting and fun. Any truly problematic combos that emerge can be adjusted as needed later.
And now I'm going to the issue it always comes back to... it's not like this game has ever been balanced anyway. They actively disregard the most colossal balancing divide in the game: voice communication. At best they'll slap a band-aid on one of the many gaping wounds, but they'll never fight the disease. Players genuinely have the all-clear to exploit voice-communication despite how that totally bastardizes the normal gameplay assumptions & conditions by eliminating so much of that inherent risk/chaos that defines the gameplay. More powerful than any ten perks and exclusive to one side of the game, it's de-facto cheating that's de-jure fair game.
It's literally impossible to ever balance this game as long as it shrugs off how total/instant communication & coordination isn't even in the same ######### ballpark as their game designed assuming player isolation save for their few info perks & whatever they can mime out by pointing at the time. In the real matches you can't even ######### type messages at your own peril to each other--but it's all "whatever" to the devs already.
So ######### it. Might as well do something fun and fresh in the meantime, and that 5th perk introduces a lot of (good) chaos to both halves of this game. It's exciting as hell.
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Sure.
Spirit or Blight with Hex Devour Hope, Hex Ruin, Hex Third Seal, Hex Thrill of the Hunt, Hex Crowd Control, Ruin speaks for itself, guarantees gens wont be done, DH guarantees ending the game after 3 hooks, Crowd Control makes jungle gyms last 2 vaults, shortening any chase by orders of magnitude, Third Seal so you can slug people AND counter maps, Thrill to defend all those totems, you go with this you will be perfectly aware when anyone is touching one of your Hexes and slowing the cleansing, being a high mobility ensures you can protect almost everything and since gyms cant stop you either you are going to get a lot of hits and a lot of pressure, third seal is just the cherry on the top, you can go for Undying instead so they have to cleanse an extra totem.
Spirit Fury, Enduring, Brutal Strength, Bamboozle and Pop, chases are going to last close to nothing AND you have the added stall from Pop, right now this build can be very strong in certain Killers but without Pop gens will go fast since you have literally 0 gen defense.
Freddy with Swing chains+red paint brush with Dying Light, Sloppy, Discordance, Thanato, Pop.
Any build you can think is a very solid one now has also NOED.
Survivor, easy just pick any build with 4 meta perks and an extra meta perk, some examples.
DS, UB, DH, BT, IW.
DS, UB, DH, IW, Adrenaline.
There are tons of variations where adding a new perk would make it absurd beyond belief, this applies to both sides.
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Because of our Devs reputations and community concerns on balance...I’d suggest this.
Add a 5th slot for Killer and Survivor but only allow WGLF and BBQ n Chilli be used for the 5th slot. Have both of those perks get a unique perk color. Basically any perk that can earn the 25% bonus BP token bonus, will fall into this category. Only one of these perks can be used at a time, placed in the special 5th slot.
Now Devs can finally create more BP bonus perks without the fear of Triple/Quadruple BP bonus.
Let the community slowly feel out what life is like when you can make 4 perk builds and not be tied down by the BP grind. Those who stopped using WGLF or BBQ so they could concentrate on a specific build or perk synergy, can still have that plus a lil extra now.
I think this would be the best bet for giving the Devs and community a ‘taste’ of the 5 perk life, without breaking the game, and also open up the opportunity for more BP increasing perks, specifically ones that encourage more healthy play styles.
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Killer could do with a 5th perk, but giving survivors 25 perks to play with would be way too much.
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From my understanding, it's very different for almost every killer. Tinker + Ruin + Undying is still quite popular and good for every killer though, but that's about it aside from individual perks like BBQ and Pop.
Undying + Devour is also a thing I see a lot
M&A is popular among 24- terror radius killers
Sloppy Butcher is popular among M1 killers
BBQ is popular among Billy and Nurse still I think
NOED is also slapped on any killer
Corrupt Intervention is very popular on Hag and Trapper
Brutal Strength is popular on Clown. I don't think it's that good on him though
Enduring + Spirit Fury is still a thing, but I rarely see that
Nemesis + PWYF is seen sometimes, but curiously only when I play killer :) idk how popular it is among other killers though
Stridor + Spirit
Enduring + Wraith and Pig?
MYC on Hag
Bamboozle on Bubba
Discordance on Plague
STBFL on Demo and Pig, but mostly Demo
that's all I can think of. Definitely take all that with a grain of salt since I don't keep a record of my matches or anything
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Noed / Bloodwarden / Remember me / Noway out / Rancor.
Delicious
The biggest issue about introduce 5th perk slot is about players will asking "6th slot when?"
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It wouldn't change anything. It would just make both sides even more BS. Survivors could bring a fifth second chance perks, killers would bring another regression perk.
It wouldn't solve anything.
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The only way to add more perk slot is to have math the perk effectiveness.
Example: a player have 20 slots.
.Weak perks like Deja vu would be 4 slots
.Most perks are 5 slots
.Meta takes 6 slots.
Thats the only way to shake up the meta and reward players using weak perks.
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This is an old thread, but something like this?
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I wouldn't be opposed to a 5th perk slot but the chaos would be real.
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Worse than that. Imagine
Ds,Unbreakable, Iron Will, soulgaurd, medal of man
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Survivors would use second chances galore if they added another perk slot, that would be unfun going against.
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A full hex build is volatile as hell. You'd lose every perk if you got unlucky, but you'd destroy everyone if some were left to a good amount of time. My only issues with that build is that Third Seal is pretty ######### against people with coms, and you have nothing that capitalizes on the fact that survivors are going to be destroying a Lot of hexes. I'd swap Third Seal out with Retribution or Undying, but I still think that the perk isn't too strong since there's still a chance you could lose everything within minutes. Also, Third Seal doesn't activate with Blight's special, for some reason.
I've tried running your second build before without pop, and it was fun as hell but not good at all. Pop slaps a band aid on the build's flaws, but I don't think it's close to enough to make it viable. Swap Brutal out for Sloppy Butcher and I think you'd have a much better build. Still, I don't think it would be incredibly oppressive.
Fuck forever Freddy, just delete his slowdown addons they are dumb and shouldn't exist
God, seeing NOED everywhere would be disgusting. It would be a good idea to give it a nice rework or nerf alongside the 5th slot. Or, like, next patch, that would be great too.
Finally, those survivor perks are super over-tuned. Most of those need a nerf yesterday. It already feels like everyone has DS, UB, DH, and BT, but actually having everyone run those perks in a match would suck and be way too oppressively. If the 5th perk slot came out in our current meta, you'd get some truly nasty teams all running Adrenaline, UB, DH, BT, and DS/IW. But how do these meta slaves and their extra perks compare to the killer's extra perk? Would they balance each other out, or would this skew the game one way or the other?
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Thanks! I was pretty proud of that when I wrote it, but that system seems like a big mess and would be irritating for the devs, myself, and probably others.
How does Hollow Knight's charm system work?
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Can't really say. We never had this and it's never been tested by players
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Kinda. I want to have it so that weird builds can be more viable. Fire up + Bamboozle + Brutal Strength is fun and all, but even together, those perks don't come close to effecting the match as others do. Same thing with the entire survivor meta. It's all too strong and you feel wide open if you run other things.
I would be very happy if I could use the perks I really like without feeling like I'm throwing the game, but the power of those perks are insignificant compared to the meta. Even still, it would be nice to see a 5th perk slot made available simply because it would be more fun and allow for more theory crafting and synergies.
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