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DS nerf is bad and what should have been done about actual overpowered perks
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I feel like a broken record because ive said this before but im just gonna say the DS nerf was bad because the perk was being treated like a mechanic by both the devs and players, what I mean by this is because of how popular DS was an obsession was virtually guaranteed and so killers where faced with a scenario where tunnelling was then discouraged.
If the use of the perk goes down less games have obsessions more killers have free reign to tunnel and you can see where im going, if the absence of a perk on one of the 4 survivors makes the game less fun maybe some of the features of the perk should be base...…. like making it so there's an obsession every game.
The reason there was so much appeal to the DS nerf to some people was because how with lockers it can be abused (there's no reason for this to not be changed), with unbreakable it actually makes you invincible and because you don't need someone to pick you up so it also denied the killer all the pressure from the hit anyway and its frustrating to be hit by because you could genuinely not be tunnelling but get punished. On another note I believe anyone saying it gives you free gen progress is just bad at the game or jumping a bandwagon that excuse is dumb imo you can slug and if they where really on an unsafe gen for so long then their DS would be running low, slugging is completely a viable and fair way to play the game I don't care what anyone meghead says this is true.
Honestly I would have nerfed the survivor role much more but differently but in a way that would have been much better for the game in my opinion by targeting broken the most broken perks and here's my hot takes on this
Dead hard-Should stun the survivor if the killer doesn't swing and an attack is not dodged so you cant just dead hard to a pallet and drop it (there's a compendium challenge that requires you to dodge attacks so the game must have some way to tell if its used for distance)
Unbreakable-Shouldn't let you pick yourself up
Soul guard-Shouldn't let you pick yourself up
Iron will-Should have a prerequisite look at lucky break and other weak perks trying to fulfil a similar role
Honestly the game is playable without DS and people acting like its not are overreacting but i don't think the nerf was good for the game like everyone is saying. I think this is because killer is the weaker role (of course this is only if both sides are playing their roles effectively) people seem to be happy with any nerfs to the survivor role because they don't trust behaviour to make the right nerfs while at the same time there are so many BS survivor perks that will never get touched, Dead hard was last changed according to the dead by daylights wiki during patch 2.0.0 (not relating to bugs the perk has had related to it, the sky hard) and unbreakable has never actually been nerfed to my knowledge.
Honestly the whole reason im rambling in this post is i just see so much community outrage over a perk that's really a non issue and its not even nerfed in a way which resolves the few issues i see in it (lockers+unbreakable combo) while broken perks are just ignored.
Comments
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I've only seen one game without DS so far. It really seems like business as usual in my opinion.
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Counterpoint, Ds nerf is exactly what we needed since no one can get off hook and onto a gen for 60 seconds while invulnerable and if a killer doesn't tunnel and allows this to play out on both hooks bought a team the 480 cumulative seconds of free gen time
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No
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I agree that there should be an obsession every game.
As for tunneling, when the number of tunnelers increase more people will start to use DS and it will go back to a place where it once was.
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All the DS nerf has shown is this:
1) Tunneling is an issue.
2) It wasn't even close to being the reason DS was popular.
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Give it a month, you'll adjust. Just like when they added the exhaustion mechanic so you couldn't recover spring burst while running.
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On another note I believe anyone saying it gives you free gen progress is just bad at the game or jumping a bandwagon that excuse is dumb imo you can slug and if they where really on an unsafe gen for so long then their DS would be running low
you don't account for the fact that the killer should be downing people if your slugged then someone has to pick you up and move to do so yea its in theory its free if you have unbreakable because pressure is denied if your slugged if the killer doesn't down you then the gen progress is earned fairly and even then if you have unbreakable and DS and sit on a gen the killer can always just and like i have said always said just down you if they cant within a reasonable time the gen was safe anyway and the DS is not the reason people get free progress. DS never gave gen progress for free EVER, at its inception it was a free health state but that's the closest its ever been. This is why in my thread i said
On another note I believe anyone saying it gives you free gen progress is just bad at the game or jumping a bandwagon that excuse is dumb imo
I dont mean to sound rude by bringing this up to you know because i dont think your bad or anything but i just believe this just is a false narrative because i see everywhere on these forums.
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I had a few games like 3 where I tunnelled people out ive played nearly 10 its just my observation but because of how much harder it is to play with no restraints i generally check for an obsession if im not using a STBFL.
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Retort: I don't want a piece of them I want the whole thing, im not going to go out of my way to spend 20 seconds to down a survivor freshly off hook just to leave them slugged because they have ds if I go after them Im going for all or nothing, which is why ds is annoying because they get rewarded for the fact they have the perk by both getting safety from an all or nothing approach or at the very least getting to waste the killers time while still being relatively safe.
Btw your connection between just because it acts like a free health state doesn't mean it gave free gen progression is pretty funny
Ds is in its best state, an anti tunnel perk
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so you want to be able to freely tunnel survivors at anytime without any type of punishment? Gotcha.
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at its inception it was a free health state but that's the closest its ever been.
this is me talking about DS when it first came out when you didn't need to be unhooked it was broken it was actually a free health state killers use to have to do something called dribbling to get to hooks this is the closest a DS has ever been to free progress in a game because it forces a killer to waste time no matter what.
I don't want a piece of them I want the whole thing, im not going to go out of my way to spend 20 seconds to down a survivor freshly off hook just to leave them slugged because they have ds if I go after them Im going for all or nothing
Slugging a survivor gives you time and pressure as killer because someone has to pick them up they have to get off a gen go to the downed guy and pick them up before there DS runs out and you return, its the issue i have with unbreakable this is denied by that perk, you do get a reward but if you go and pick them up for there team well your doing them a favour and if your spending 20 seconds to down them thats 20 seconds off the DS plus the point that the fact you need to chase them and they are in a form of danger that is giving you the time and momentum in the game shows that any progress they got was still at a certain risk. DS never gave free gen progress and never has given it you have to give it to them.
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Think what you want, but im just glad survivors don't have their invincibility bubble that allowed them to play more brainless then a jellyfish and still be fine because they could hop in a locker or had ds I forgot about after I just hooked 2 other people and they were healthy when chase started. Or unhook in front of the killer and have ds available still so I literally cannot go for either because muh tunneling counter
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Survivors can still hop in lockers to use ds so that hasn't changed.
I am very happy with the deactivation on working on gens, however I feel it has been overturned and if its not amended it will be very detrimental to the game
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Slugging a survivor gives pressure, you know what else gives pressure, hooking a survivor, you know whats easy to hook a survivor who just got off hook refused to heal and sat on a gen 2 feet from the hook, guess what I've seen happen and seen people get away with thousands of times due to ds that exact scenario and everything in-between, literally every person with ds did this at some point and it was just bad a broken design that didn't have an easy way to punish and always was short of the pressure you got from hooking a survivor.
I have dealt with it so many times and I would like to never see it again where freshly unhooked players are able to progress the state of the game with no penalty or reduced pressure due to killers being forced to slug but also no pressure because they also had unbreakable.
Its stale, its boring, its gone, and no one would ever want to see it again.
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DS wasn't used for anti tunneling it was used as a god button when doing gens and totems
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Ds was blatently overpowered, and easily abused. This change will only affect people who abused it. Its a change 2 years in the making and its in its healthiest form where if you progress the state of the game it becomes disabled. Its an anti tunnel perk not a god button like it used to be, not a free get away unless you juggle, not a free getaway after 59 seconds on a gen and grabbed of. Its an anti tunnel perk
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yea hooking someone gives pressure but you probs wouldn't have got the down if they didn't have DS because they planted themselves on a bad gen because of their DS you wouldn't have had a hook anyway if they run you in spite of that to the point where either there DS is running out then the DS didn't exactly give them free gen progress their ability to outplay you did that DS doesn't eliminate the risk just because it incentivised it.
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"probably"
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Decisive strike was the strongest survivor perk with dead hard. It definitely needed nerfing. It still protects you from tunneling. What you now need is AWARENESS when you want to give out that 60 second immunity. It made no sense that survivor could just hop in generator and DS would protect them. I would have personally kept that you could selfcare yourself and it doesn't disable your DS. Otherwise the perk still serves it purpose
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Imo i think dead hard and unbreakable are both stronger but i don't see any changes coming to them and it kind of frustrates me, I faceed a 4 man all with Dead hard yesterday and when everyone had a bail out that buys 15-20 extra seconds its so oppressive i ended up slugging out a DS and relying on the fact they wouldn't leave without eat other to win because i just couldn't keep up with the speed of the game.
Dead hard is that perk is here-
everything else is here-
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This is why unbreakable is the perk in the game i take the most issue with its the only perk that completely denies a killer of all pressure and the simple change i would make is in my OP you shouldn't be allowed to pick yourself up.
well second behind dead hard this is my edit
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I'm just still surprised that an obsession isn't standard in every game!
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The nerf is exactly what we needed from The Killer's perspective but the developers have not yet addressed the experience from the survivors' perspective. I can heal myself and tap a gen to protect its progress or even activate Repressed Alliance while I'm being tunnelled not to mention tunneling can happen twice, tunneling isn't limited to 60 seconds, tunneling doesn't end because you're slugged, etc. The real issue with this perk is that it's still easily circumvented. Imo It doesn't advance the stated goal in a compelling way. Instead the perk can provide very limited relief in a very specific and narrow circumstance with a list of conditions that have to be met.
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I just have no shame when it comes to slugging imo if I can slug all the survivors and they cant pick themselves up unless im a nurse with infectious they chose not to heal or are just so far outclassed i can down them too fast so DS is just a non issue perk but with unbreakable
1 players down i slug
2 players
im chasing the 3rd
in their discord
"ive got unbreakable stay on the gen"
4th guy doesn't have to move and a gen pops player 1 unbreakable and picks up his mate. I earned 3 downs assuming the 3rd player goes down they gave me nothing because one player ran 1 perk in one of 16 slots.
I just see DS as a non issue that overshadows how OP some perks are while DS is more helpful for solo qurs who just don't wanna be tunnelled unbreakable is broken on comms because of how players can tell eachother to just stay on a gen while they get up no risk. honestly imma just copy past this comment as its own thread. I despise the perk that much.
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So you are complaining that while being tunneled you get punished for progressing the state of the game. Thats what the nerf was for. Its an anti tunnel perk and nothing more.
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Wrong but you clearly didn't read and I'm not going to explain it further.
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We need to buff the other anti-tunnel perks.
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if unbreakable shouldn't allow you to pick yourself up, than you may as well just delete it. Same with soul guard.
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If your only rational decision when a counter is posed to your argument to deny it and deny to elaborate further as a reaction maybe you just had a bad argument.
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DS NERF was absolutely needed and if you think otherwise u some entitled survivors arguing over a full minute of protection
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You would first have to make an argument, let alone a compelling or rational one. in light of the fact that you fail to do so, there's nothing really for me to reply to.
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Your argument was you should be able to have ds and progress the game, my argument was that was exactly what you shouldn't be able to do while being tunneled, your response was turtle and claim everything thats not your argument is wrong. Still haven't addressed the point that ds shouldn't be able to progress the state of the game even while being tunneled.
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Seriously, leave UB and SG alone, OP is arguing for a heavier nerf than the DS one actually is, I don't get it. I thought he wanted to win as Survivor
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You set up a straw man, I never said you should be able to do those things and retain DS. I pointed out that you can in fact still do things during the tunnel but I never said you should be able to. In fact I stated that this is the nerf we needed from the killer's perspective, I was pointing out that this change doesn't take into account anything from the survivor's perspective. Namely the examples I outlined in my reply. Now that the abusive aspects of the perk is gone, the next iteration should involve some improvements from the survivor side of the experience.
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yea but here is my argument, it shouldn't need anymore changes, its now an anti tunnel perk and nothing more, it shouldn't become more because its already in a good state, just because from the survivor perspective it can't be abused doesn't mean it lost any of its functionality for its new purpose, its a free health state, and a 5 second stun for someone being tunneled. Thats already good enough on its own to buy enough time to win the game for your team while being tunneled / camped, end of story as thats all it ever needs to be capable of nothing more for a single perk the ability to win the game is a good deal.
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Issue with "a place it once was" is, I could count, on one hand, the amount of times I got DS'd because I was tunneling. But I've been DS'd many, many times. Usually by a fully healed survivor, working on a generator. Or by a survivor who was farmed in my face before I could get away from the hook, and tried to force a BT hit when I tried to go after the unhooker (invitation to tunnel, you don't get to complain).
In both of these circumstances, I was called a tunneler.
The big thing is, survivors, and people who play the game in general, don't actually know what tunneling is, and use DS as a measuring stick for it. "Came after me within 60 seconds? TUNNELER!"
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Maybe because now that a good part of the survivor is no longer willing to run ds because it is no longer omnipotent usable, killer don't have to "fear" the obsession marks anymore. Ds is the only reason that those marks around one survivor icon do anything. A placebo is only effective if there is a medicine with a proven effect. Take the latter away due to unwillingness and the first will lose all effectiveness too.
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It's not about "can I or can't I do this while being tunneled?"
It's about "Should you be able to do this and still be invincible for 60 seconds?"
The answer is no. Stop trying to justify doing anything toward your objective, no matter how small, and acting like you're being tunneled. You forfeit the right to say "stop tunneling" if you do anything to help your team aside from wasting the killers time in a chase.
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I've seen a fair few survivors still run it, although it's nice to see survivors trying new perk combinations. The fact the obsession is in a trial will make killers consider the worth of tunnelling a survivor, just to be sure. Won't always work, but then again it didn't stop tunnelling even when DS was powerful!
It's a simple change without fiddling with DS more. It's either purely an anti-tunnel perk, or as it was pre-nerf the DBD version of the Mario invincibility star.
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Maybe but I already saw a row of threads wanting this to not being "forced to run ds". Meaning they don't want to use this now "useless" perk but still want the effect from the obsession marks while missing the fact that overtime if all they do is rely on this passive that killer will more and more learn to call the bluff.
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Every perk should be at fixated or second wind level on the survivors side theres 16 slots and each survivor picks 4
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Second Wind is worthless and this argument makes you sound boosted.
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1 I'm a rank 1 player
2 Your assuming rank has a value in a game where 6% of people who played the game on steam can hit the top rank.
You can legit only judge someone based off their gameplay or make assumptions. Even then if I dismissed a newer purple players concerns I'd consider myself rude. So politely just take this into account next time.
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If that would end up being the case it would end up as a psydo DS buff so I dont think I will happen and I think it's why a lot of people jump out against it but I just dont see the harm in denying the killer information that can only be used in most games for judgeing that tunneling may be the best course of action.
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I never brought rank into anything, you just frankly sound like you're bad if you're concerned that every survivor can carry four perks that are actually worthwhile. 16 vs 4 perks is a bad argument that's been done to death.
I also am rank 1, it's not any sort of achievement and there's tons of boosted players in red ranks.
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I don't think many people think it was healthy in its original state but in my opinion it needs to do more to help against tunnelling. What it does now isn't sufficient imho. At the very least it should activate twice.
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You know what boosted means right?
At least to my understanding it means your rank in a game is higher than it should be. That's what I took you as meaning.
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You can have a boosted train of thought, which is what I'm currently seeing your original post as.
Second Wind is utterly awful that will rarely trigger in a match. If you truly think that every perk for survivors should be on that level you come across as a boosted (bad) player.
Every single other recovery perk outclasses Second Wind, you'd get more value out of Self-Care in a regular match.
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Self care dosent give you any real value but enough of that it's just an example a niche perk that serves a purpose but dosent give value to the same extent at unbreakable or dead hard it's why I used it to back up a point yea is it the best pick maybe I could have said deliverance but you probably get the original point I'm trying to make that the baseline that then "Meta" perks are at is too high.
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Yeah, I see where you're coming from. We'll just have to see where this ultimately leads and whatever adjustments are put in accordingly thereafter.
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