About DS
So aside from the mess that is the recent DS nerf, I’ve noticed another probably trivial thing about DS. The perk description of DS reads:
“Using whatever is at hand, you stab at your aggressor in an ultimate attempt to escape.”
It makes pretty clear that the second chance is in an “ultimate attempt to escape,” meaning it’s probably the last thing between you and being impaled by the spider daddy, and I get that lore takes a backseat to gameplay mechanics, but shouldn’t DS only apply to when you’re on death hook, when you’re really out of options and DS would really be your ultimate attempt to escape?
I guess that fails to address moris and facecamping, as you can mori a survivor on the last hook and if you’re getting camped on first hook, you’re getting camped on second hook. I don’t know, that’s why I’m here.
Comments
-
No, it doesn't need another nerf.
4 -
I was more thinking about reverting the dog water state it's in right now and then applying something like this.
0 -
Honestly, I'd prefer it to be a perk that works on death hook. That's when I usually used to use it anyway.
I will say that this is some deep thinking though. Mega brain cells are on 100% tonight huh?
2 -
No I just had a coffee at three and I'm going to be up all night, so might as well.
1 -
Interesting.
Drink coffee more often, I like thoughtful discussions ^_^
1 -
Another nerf? It is already weak perk now
0 -
I was finally able to use ds after the nerf and the killer just ate the ds.
0 -
I was considering reverting its recent nerf and then applying the lore-adherent changes.
0 -
Nah, I think that would actually be a bit of a buff. As it is now, Survivors can "waste" their DS after their first hook, leaving them with nothing for when it arguably counts more. It's situational, but survivors will almost always use it as soon as they get a chance to. Get it out of the way early, and you don't have to worry about it when the gates are powered or open.
0 -
The issue is that 60 seconds isn't that long to be slugged or chased for, and even if you have unbreakable, you won't get value out of DS if they wait out those 60 seconds. Having two chances to escape is definitely stronger than one, although I see what you're getting at.
0 -
The only change I hope to see to DS is either allow you to heal yourself without it deactivating but idk it's just kind of useless imo better to bring a different obsession perk if obsession generation is important to you otherwise Borrowed Time and seriously taking hits for each other needs to be more meta which I think will be the case after a month or so.
DS can prevent tunneling but if the killer slugs you and waits it out, voila it's.. Useless.
1 -
If you can run the killer for 60 seconds, you've already given your team mates loads of time to get gens done. Although I wouldn't be against a change to something like; DS only lasts 20 seconds, however if you're in a chase the timer is paused. Similar to the Deep Wound/Mend timer.
0 -
Which is probably why the Devs should reconsider trying to make it an anti-tunnel perk. Chases can last more than 60 seconds, you can be on the ground for 60 seconds, and with the recent changes to really require you to be hard tunneled, the timer should be doubled, or outright removed.
1 -
20 seconds might have the inadvertent effect of making slugging easier, but the deep wound timer idea definitely works.
0 -
Leaving you on the ground for 60 seconds is also a huge risk for the killer. You might have Unbreakable, someone else might recover you. If they camp your body, that's just as bad as chasing you for 60 seconds, your team mates are free to do gens.
2 -
Agreed 😔
I feel like they can do these and it doesn't change the function of it. You still can't tap gens, cleanse totems, unhook others or do anything except be chased/tunneled.
1 -
That's the thing about DS/Unbreakable. If you get use out of one, you won't be getting use out of the other. From the killer standpoint it can be a pressure remover, but from the survivor standpoint it's not better. It's not like your teammates know you have unbreakable, either. It's Solo queue.
0 -
Except this might end up screwing over your team mates. People who want to save their DS so they do nothing to further objectives, and can now continue to do so indefinitely instead of just for 60 seconds.
2 -
Well that's the direction the Devs are going with the new DS, apparently only to counter hard-tunneling straight off the hook. Might as well make it a good perk to counter hard-tunneling straight off the hook, despite it happening like once a day.
0 -
I mean, in the event that the killer is chasing you your distracting them and giving your team time to complete objectives.
0 -
Right... but I was referring to team mates who are NOT being chased, but still don't do objectives, in order to save DS 'just in case'.
2 -
I haven't seen anyone doing that so far. Doing nothing for 60 seconds is massively inefficient, so high ranked survivors won't be likely to do that. Low ranked survivors don't need an excuse to do nothing.
I'm still using DS in my survivor matches and still getting value out of it, so this idea people are having that the perk is useless now is bunk.
It's an anti-tunnel perk, not a free invincibility perk. Let's all just take a deep breath and adapt.
1 -
No it doesn't need a nerf. Ds is perfect the way it is. I feel like killer mains who tunnels are asking ds to get nerfed to the ground.
0 -
The devs are trying to make it an anti-tunnel perk, but with the befuddling decision to keep its old second chance functionality. If it wants to be a true anti-tunnel perk, it needs a complete overhaul, not just taping on the red tape to how you can use it. Now, it's a second chance if you get tunneled off of the hook, but it won't effectively discourage tunneling. The main purpose is to give the user an escape; a second chance, not necessarily to hinder the killer.
0 -
That DOES hinder the killer. 5 second stun, up to 24 second lead, getting to a decent loop can extend the chase by about 40 seconds or more depending on how good you and the killer are at looping. 40 additional seconds, added to the end of a chase already that could easily be just as long. That's enough time for your team mates to do multiple gens.
If it didn't hinder the killer at all then survivors abusing it before wouldn't have been an issue.
1 -
It is far from perfect, in its current state. It's so situational it may as well be base kit to no difference.
I was thinking more about a complete overhaul of its recent anti-tunnel shift and returning to its old capacity as a second chance. It is the "ultimate attempt to escape," not "a way to assault people who like to chase you around more than other people," after all.
0 -
I was referring more to the survivor aspect of it. The 5 second stun might as well be non-existent, as it's only there to give the survivor a head start (we all remember when enduring affected DS). Beyond that 5 second stun, it's a killer grasp escape, like a flashlight save. The blinding and stun are a minor hindrance compared to the fact that the survivor is free from the killer and able to live again.
Survivors move at 4.0 m/s, so they make 16 meters in that 4 seconds (because falling from a killer's shoulder causes tends to knock the wind out of you). Killers move at 4.6 m/s if you're playing the good ones. Using 4x+16=4.6x, It'll be about 26 seconds until the killer catches up to you again. Sounds great until you realize that holding w is a very inefficient way to loop, and depending on how good you are at looping, that can be a few seconds to a minute or two. Either way, that opportunity was afforded by the killer grasp escape. It's not going to discourage tunneling, but it'll give you that ticket to try again.
DS was never "abusable," it was just really, really strong. To abuse something implies you're using it in a way it wasn't intended. The perk description of DS was literally, "if the killer picks you up than you can stab them and get away for free lol." Even lockers weren't really "abuse." It was a creative way to force a grab, but nothing like tractor totems or survivor dribbling.
0 -
So it takes you off the killer, gives you back a health state and gives you a reasonable head start to make it to a loop or teammate, even against the fastest killers.
That certainly all sounds like things that help you escape being tunneled. Aside from just giving you immunity to being hooked twice in a row, what else could they do? At some point you have to be responsible for the skill you are bringing, and not expect the perk to do all the work for you.
1 -
Not necessarily, it doesn't address and prevent tunneling. It's just a slap on the wrist of the killer in case they hard-tunnel you, but won't block them from tunneling.
There are some things that no amount of "get good" can do. No amount of mechanical precision will prevent the killer from tunneling you or camping you because you have no agency in that regard. If they tunnel you, they'll eventually camp you out (god forbid it's a Bubba). These are things that no amount of "the skill you are bringing" can fix. Old Brand New Parts? 6 blink Nurse with 50 million macros can't fix that. Old DS? Tier 500 NOED can't fix that. Ironworks infinite? No amount of stridor Spirit can fix that. No amount of brilliant looping will fix getting camped (especially since you can't loop while impaled on a hook). No amount of good looping will fix tunneling. You'll run out of pallets eventually and even the babiest of baby killers will catch up.
0 -
So then, you want immunity, nothing less will work for you. Just say so. You want to completely prevent tunneling? I can do that easy, no more 3 hook states, we do it F13 style and you die as soon as you're on the first hook. Voila, no more tunneling.
Every game with multiple "lives" has some form of tunneling. Only in DbD is it so completely misunderstood and complained about.
0 -
Assumptive today, are we.
There's a difference between saying "Give survivors 24/7 infinite mettle of man lol gg ez get good" and "DS doesn't address tunneling." Quite a big one. Least among those differences is that nobody is asking for complete immunity. DS is supposed to be a second chance, and tunneling is an unhealthy part of the game that should probably get addressed, despite how rare it is. That's all I'm saying. I don't know how you take that and see "immunity," but I would see an optometrist for that.
0 -
It currently gives you a second chance.
Free health state, damn near half a minute to find a way out. That's by definition a second chance. Instead of losing 4 chases to die, you have to lose 5. That's a second chance perk if ever there was one.
0 -
I just wonder how many layers of protection do survivors want? If you DS me then I received punishment for tunneling, me coming after you after that is just playing the game and is not mean or toxic its literally me doing my job as the killer.
1 -
Right, and that second chance is only applicable when you're being tunneled off of the hook, if you don't get slugged, and as long as your chase lasts shorter than 60 seconds. That's very much situational, and still ripe for its old modes of counterplay. As annoying as being tunneled off of hook is, it's pretty rare, and it's a heavy burden to require one perk for one out of a million possibilities.
And then there's the whole reason I started this thread, being that DS was not consistent with its description. Getting hooked once and jumping into a locker is not the "ultimate attempt to escape."
0 -
Not many. We could give them a suit of armor but DS seems like quite enough. And a reasonable wish too.
The issue you bring up is a moot point. Yes, it's efficient to tunnel as the killer. I do it all the time. We're not talking about why killers tunnel, we're just talking under the assumption that they do, the assumption that it really isn't fun for the other side, and that there should be some sort of guard to take care of that. If it's unhealthy, then it ought to be addressed. Is it so greedy to say, "Hey, I want to play this game, which typically means I want to not die, and therefore I should have some sort of defense against styles of gameplay that help me prevent that occurrence?"
0 -
Yeah, it works if you are being tunneled off hook. That's what tunneling is. It lasts 60 seconds. That's a lot of time in this game. If you are chasing a survivor for 60 seconds and a single gen doesn't pop, much less 2 or 3, then the Survivor team is probably following you around.
0 -
Getting tunneled off hook is one specific occurrence of tunneling. If the killer is playing at maximum efficiency (which means maximum tunneling), they won't patrol your hook. They'll go harass another survivor, but the moment you are unhooked the will prioritize you. If the survivors are playing well and are spread apart, the recently unhooked survivor will be unaware that the killer is coming straight back, and probably do something to contribute to the game (like an objective). Then, the killer comes back, downs the recently hooked survivor, and DS is gone. If they just sat around, anticipating that this would happen, they get slugged for the remainder of their DS. If they have unbreakable, they use their one token, and don't get to use DS.
The cycle of unfun gameplay for both sides continues (nobody likes to be slugged, and nobody likes slugging), the end.
0 -
Killers aren't entitled to care about "fun" for the survivors. It isn't unhealthy and there are ways to stop and help anyone being tunneled. The game has the premise of "survive if you can" if you can't that's not the killers fault and that's the survivor teams fault. Survivors aren't entitled to escape, they have to earn the right to escape. The defense is still there in the form of DS and having teammates help you, stop acting like its impossible.
1 -
Survivors weren't ever entitled to care about "fun" for killers either. Yet, old Brand New Parts, Instaheals, etc. were still used in moderation. Even keys, now. You see as many keys as you see tunnelers. There's a delicate balance, a gentleman's agreement that each side adheres to because they have leverage over the other side. I don't tunnel because I don't want to see an influx of keys and 4 meta perk builds.
Similarly here. Killer's aren't entitled to a 4k, they have to earn the right to 4k. Survivors could all run keys and old Brand New Parts and you would have no ground on to complain. Even old DS; just get good and earn your right to a 4k .
But clearly, the stakes were in favor of one side and the delicate balance was thrown off. Yes, it is up to both sides to earn their wins, but it is equally important to ensure an even playing field. Old DS was ridiculously unfair, so they nerfed it. Old Moris were unfair, so they nerfed them. Everybody could run keys in a coordinated SWF with DS/DH/BT/Iron Will, but they don't. Every killer could tunnel as NOED Nurse, but they don't.
This isn't the jungle, where you take what you have and do what you want without regard for fun. This is a man-made universe that you can fiddle with at your will. BHVR has the chance to maximize net happiness, and since that includes balancing the playing field to make wins feel more earned, then that is the right and just thing to do.
0 -
Never said survivors have to care about the killers fun, and most times they dont. You can not tunnel all you want but that wont stop the other side from using things like keys and 4 meta perks. I never expect 4k's and do my best to earn them each game, but survivors give you hell for trying to get 4k's by saying that you aren't giving them a chance to play.
1 -
So to you tunneling means when the killer also goes after other Survivors?
Starting to think the perk isn't the problem here
1 -
They clearly do. You again, you don't just see 4 man SWFs with keys, DS/DH/BT/Iron Will, you only see them occasionally. And the reason you see them occasionally is because they are considered "toxic" and "unfun," and since I can pull out the stridor/NOED/Knockout/Devour Hope Spirit with yamuyoke amulet and mother daughter ring at any time, or the facecamping Bubba. Again, there's a subtle agreement that we all want to have fun, and that means considering the fact that the other side could be infinitely more toxic than they are right now. Toxicity begets toxicity.
And it is perfectly right and just for survivors to complain about you getting 4ks, since all that matters is the pursuit of wins. Their goal is to win, and so you can't criticize them for wanting to win. Their win is your loss, meaning that all toxicity is deserved.
(Note the sarcasm).
0 -
Honestly the reason you see them occasionally is more likely the difficulty in getting 4 people together to play the game as a team who all have the best possible loadout. Toxicity doesn't have much to do with it.
0 -
You can't tunnel a survivor on the hook. So you might as well go do something else. If you're at work, and your computer is busy updating something, you might as well go through your inbox or something instead of sitting there and waiting for it to finish. Now, the moment that survivor is unhooked, or the moment you get better WiFi, you can go back to tunneling the ever-loving hell out of them.
0 -
I meant toxicity in the DBD sense of "being good at the game." If anybody calls you toxic it's usually a subtle compliment.
0 -
Toxicity is never deserved. It's quite bold of you to assume who i get paired with and how often since you don't know. Sure we can all have fun but you shouldn't depend on the other side for your source of fun. If i think killing survivors is fun then that's my right and for anyone to tell me that me having fun is being toxic to them(when its my job to kill and get survivors out of the game) im sorry but it is what it is.
1 -
Apparently, since it's in everybody's interest to care for their own interest, it is not for anybody to say that toxicity is deserved or not.
(Sarcasm again).
My fundamental point is that everybody looks out for their own interest, and it's in everybody's interest to not tunnel, because survivors can bring out the 4 man SWF's and keys. If you unbalance the playing field in your favor, the other side will try to rebalance it in their favor to have a miserable experience for everybody. It's like mutually assured destruction: unfun playstyles beget unfun playstyles.
0 -
And after the second time they've been hooked, if they don't see the pattern, it's on them.
0 -
DS is fine how it is now.
2 -
yes, this is what killers say. But I see it less and less. Las the 5 games I didn’t see it, so probably survs don’t think the same
0
