Can we talk about gen regression?

To an extent I agree but that is map dependent. Some maps like asarovs and suffo pit have easy 3 gen opportunities for the killer to take

That more of a map issue.

For me gen tapping vs gen kicking should be more balance but right now the game is already quite balanced so IDK.

I remember a time when gens did not regress.

Even in this case the Survivors can stop the three-gen from happening. They ignore the gens outside of the three-gen the Killer is hovering around and work in pairs to hit two of them at the same time. The Killer can't keep pressure on both gens at once because of how bad regression is, so without Ruin one of those two gens is going to finish and unless the Survivors mess up there is nothing the Killer can really do to stop it unless they are just that much more skilled than all of the Survivors.

Is this something that is likely to happen with four randoms? No, not really. But is it possible if those four randoms know what's-what? Yes. I've been one of those four randoms and was able to literally point out a three-gen to others and work together to break them and have had it happen to me as Killer when when I'm guarding that three-gen harder than a dragon does its horde. Though I also freely admit to not being all that skilled at this game, on either side.

A three-gen is always controlled by the Survivors, they just have to work together enough to keep the Killer from defending at least one of them long enough by going after at least two of them if not all three depending on a lot of factors, such as location of gens and who the Killer is and what add-ons and perks they have and so on. In all my hours of play and watching others play I have only ever seen a grand total of three sets of three-gens that were close enough together for any Killer to easily defend, and one of them was around a tree in the middle of even then you didn't have true line-of-sight on all three at once. Still, even then, if done right one of those deity level gens can still get finished if the Killer steps too far away to go for an "easy down" and misjudges things.

On the main topic. I think base gen regression is a joke. As a Killer I hardly ever bother with it unless I want the Brutality points because I'm not getting in M1s for what-ever reason. The fact that it takes two seconds to start a 0.25% per second regression is laughable. That it can be undone in only a fraction of a second is just insulting.

I like the idea that a Survivor has to spend at least a full uninterrupted second on the gen before it stops regressing. This means that they can't just "tap" the gen while in chase and if the Killer comes back around in that second they don't have the kick the gen again to get it doing down once more. But it's also half the time it takes to start regression so if the Killer takes the time to kick another gen the previous gen they kicked can be started back up with no problem and even gains 0.75% percent progression in those two seconds. That's not even accounting for travel time between the two gens for the Killer. I think it's the most balanced way they could do it without it being oppressive to Survivors.

Ah, yes. Balance.

I think your forgetting about the flat out instant regression you get when kicking a gen, which is around 10% so if a survivor were to just keep "tapping" the gen then you only need to kick it a few times to fully regress the gen, however i do agree that getting three gen'd i purely the survivors fault, however the killer can influence it, like how as a survivor, your not going to go for a gen that you cant necessarily finish without risking getting 4k'd

What's to abuse? There is nothing given to the Killer for kicking a gen without a Perk other than starting regression. A lot of people run both Ruin and Pop because Ruin gets found so easily so they need a backup because gens go by that fast. But while Ruin is still in play Pop is useless as it is right now. Without an active Pop and not having Overcharge there is no reason to kick an already regressing gen. And Pop has limited uses. The only "problem" would be Ruin plus Overcharge and Overcharge only works once per Survivor, or less if they are on coms. And even with Overcharge you'd still have to kick the gen already regressing via Ruin to apply the effect. All Overcharge really does once Survivors are aware of it is prevent "tapping" to stop regression. Which doesn't happen if Ruin is in play.

So, again, I ask what can be abused by being able to kick an already regressing gen?

I don't see why there isn't an equally long animation for a survivor to start working on a generator. It seems logical, more realistic and would immediately solve the entire "gen tap" issue that we still have.

If someone could produce a valid counter claim against this, I'd like to see it.

This is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes Sprint Burst and Dead Hard are both "distance perks" and Ruin and Pop are "gen regression perks" but they work in very different ways. And for the record I have seen some Survivors run both Sprint Burst and Dead hard together and make it work out for them because they are just that good. And some combinations of Head On and some other Exhaustion perk for that extra spiciness.

Ruin has generators regress at 0.5 c per second, where as Survivors repair at 1 c per second. Pop takes off a flat 25%, no matter how much progression there is. Being able to Pop a 99ed gen that is regressing from Ruin wouldn't be "so strong". It'd be strong yes, but not overpowered. Since you only get one Pop per hook and have to work for hooks most of the time Ruin would probably run down the gens anyways so Pop wouldn't be much of a factor. But having the option would be nice and not broken. Pop without Ruin is a flat 25% off the top then it starts the normal 0.25 c per second regression and that's strong enough on it's own. Adding Ruin just adds that extra 0.25 c per second which if Survivors are on gens anyways doesn't matter much.

Overcharge plus Ruin would be downright broken if Overcharge got applied via Ruin, but it doesn't. It isn't applied the the three other gens Oppression makes starts regressing, only the gen you kick. Being able to run Overcharge in combination with Ruin could allow for some fun combos, and not the broken sort like old Undying and Ruin but actual "I need to be aware this can happen but don't know if it will" type of moments when a Survivor comes to a regressing gen and they know both Ruin and Overcharge are in play but don't know if the Killer has been by to kick this particular gen or not.

Because if they see you doing that and know what is going on they can opt to force the issue now instead of waiting till end game. If you patrol a tight set of three or four gens when no gens have been completed the Survivors can exclusively work on those three or four gens and ignore the other three that are not close together. Doing so when they have not been hit or hooked at all is really smart.

Will most groups do this? No. But they can, and some do.

I do not deny that a three gen is strong. I do not deny that it is a three gen no matter how many other gens have been finished. But in the end the way you deal with a three gen is the same no matter the state of the other generators and when that three gen is dealt with is always controlled by the Survivors.

Most teams will wait till it's the last gen left to finish. Some teams will try and break it earlier. Either way it was the Survivors who controlled if it got broken or not, with the Killer only influencing their decision.

Most of the game is controlled by the Survivors, and how they react to what the Killer does. There are four of them and only one Killer so it makes sense that the majority of what happens in the game is driven by their actions. If a Killer tries and force a three gen at end game the Survivors have the choice of letting it happen or not letting it happen, but that is a choice they have. You as Killer choose to stay at these particular gens for most if not all of the game, the Survivors choose to not force the issue early and did the other four gens first. Or they didn't and forced you to move beyond your tight patrol or actually finished one of the gens in exchange for a hook or two.

At the end of the day the game is all about chains of choices. What Killer you chose to play as, what add-ons and offering you bring, what Perks and how you play. Those are all your choices and the reactions to them that the Survivors make are all their choices. But for all that you can choose to try and force a three gen the Survivors have to allow it to happen. Now if they'll succeed in trying to break it or not is another matter, it could very well lead to an early 4k if they don't play well enough. But it wasn't the fact you tried to set up a late game three gen that got you the 4k, it was the fact the Survivors tried to break that three gen and failed.

A three gen is a three gen is a three gen, but it only stays a three gen because Survivors opt to not break it. Doesn't matter if they do so because they don't see it or if they don't try because the Killer is always around it. Smart Survivors will look out for three gens at the very start of the game and work to break them early no matter where the Killer is.

It's a good thing smart Survivors are so rare.

Imo, they should do one of three things.

• increase base regression speed
• Make all kicks apply 2.5-5% regression
• Survivors have to work for at least 5 seconds before regression stops (progress would still be gained, but letting go would start regression again.)

I'm a computer programmer who has taken professional courses in game deign because I want to be a professional game programmer and designer someday, so I do know a few things about game design and game balance. That said I am still new to Dead By Daylight and am still learning how all the various parts interlock and interact with each other. But I sincerely believe that being able to use Pop on a gen that is regressing because of Ruin would not be overpowered any more so than Pop is already a powerful Perk. Taking 25% off of what is there and than having the 0.5 c per second kick in is not anymore painful as Survivor than seeing a gen get hit with Pop already is.

I'm a Killer Main, but I play Survivor as well. As Survivor I always check for Ruin at the start of the match and if it is in play I tend to have either Detective's Hunch or Small Game so I'll go look for it when I can. And even if I don't have either perk or a map I'm always on the lookout for totems. I'm a "Do bones" sort of person.

Both Ruin and Pop give Survivors reasons for finishing gens instead of just 99ing them. When neither is in play I will often 99 gens so as to give the Killer a false sense of game progression. If one gen is repaired and three are sitting at 99 most Killers will play as if there are four gens left to finish instead of only one because they can only keep track of so many things so maybe they'll know that one gen is at 99 waiting to be finished but not know about the other two. I've had this done to me before as Killer. It is not a common tactic but is a viable one when you can pull it off.

Another thing to keep in mind when it comes to Pop is that you need hooks for it to work. If Ruin is doing its job and keeping gens down and you're keeping Survivors off of them but can't catch the Survivors then Pop wont even be a factor. But Ruin is slower than repair, and as Killer you can't be in four places at once so unless half or more of the Survivors are being potatoes they will be making progress on gens. But if you do catch someone and Ruin is still up you should be able to use the other Perk you used a slot for. Pop and Ruin are normally run together because of how fragile Ruin can be at times and without some kind of gen regression perk it's almost impossible to win as Killer against even half-way decent Survivors let alone the really good ones.

Ruin and Overcharge would be more of a danger, but even then you'd have to take the time to kick a gen and two seconds is a long time. Using three Perks to have Brutal Strength would make for a good combo but leaves you only one slot for an information or other useful Perk. Ruin plus Oppression would be very conditional, since those gens are already regressing because of Ruin the only thing you'd get from that combo would be every so often having someone fail the skill check. You'd be better served by running Ruin with Surveillance if you wanted the information.

The core issue is that basekit gen regression is so weak that as Killer you need a perk dealing with gen regression it if you want to have a chance of winning against the better Survivors. It's why Ruin and Pop are both meta perks, and why they are run together so often even though they have anti-synergy with each other. As long as Ruin is up you can't use Pop but Ruin goes down early so often it's very inconsistent on how long you'll even have it. So being able to kick an already regressing gen would be very conditional on having an active Ruin and an active Pop or an active Ruin and Overcharge, neither scenario is overly bad for the Survivors because as long as Ruin is active they need to either just finish the gen, making Pop useless, or not even bother working on it until they find the totem.

I personally would like base regression upped to 0.5 c per second, what max rank Ruin does at the moment. Ruin can then be tweaked so it only applies 50%/75%/100% normal regression while active instead of 100%/150%/200% like it is now, or maybe even slightly buffed to be 100%/125%/150%. 0.75 c per second compared to 1 c per second is pretty strong but Ruin is so inconsistent and easily removed at times it should be strong and force Survivors to cleanse it if they want to win.

At most I think a kick should apply 1%, maybe 2% instant regression. A minor amount that would none-the-less make Survivors think twice about doing a "tap" and not quite enough that it is worth dropping chase to kick again. Surge does 8%, and that is both conditional on getting a down close enough to the gen and the Perk being off cooldown. Overcharge failed checks do 5% so anything basekit should not be as good as a dedicated Perk, even if that Perk is somewhat conditional.

Really Overcharge is an "anti-tap" Perk more so than anything else. Because you can stop the regression but you're taking a good chunk out of total progress already there if you do. Or you are getting M1ed or even grabbed if you stick around for the skill check. It's always so fun watching a gen explode because a Survivor "tapped" it while I was chasing them and they had a good enough lead they felt safe doing so.

As for the final idea I don't think it should be so long, because I'd actually like to be able to kick the gen again if I'm running Pop or Overcharge or Oppression. Even just a second would be enough to prevent "tapping", which is my main issue on how weak kicking gens is along side how 0.25 c per second just doesn't really do anything for the two second hit investment.

Because that's a whataboutism. This is a thread about basekit gen regression, not a thread about camping or tunneling. There are many threads about both of them to talk about it in that it doesn't need to be brought into an unrelated discussion.

It could be argued that Killers camp and tunnel because they feel they have to because they have no other option to deal with fast gen speeds when the Bloodweb has been unkind to them and they don't have any relevant Perks. Getting one person out of the game right away means one less person working on gens after all. So if basekit gen regression was buffed in some way then maybe some of them would stop doing that sort of thing. I tend to ask people why they camp and tunnel after game and have gotten told "Because gens" various times. Some just say "Why not?" of course but for some it does honestly seem to be because they don't think they stand a chance without doing it.

Until changes are made to actively punish the actions we'll never stop everyone from doing it of course, and even then unless the punishment is literally "can't win the game" they'll still do it anyways. Some people are just going to camp or tunnel because they hate other people having fun, that's how they get their fun and don't care about other's people fun, or whatever other petty reason they have for doing scummy things. Same is true for all of the toxic and ######### things Survivors can do to bully the Killer, but that's more whataboutism that isn't even somewhat tangentially related to the topic here.

Are camping and tunneling problems? Yes, they are. But so is basekit gen regression and how Survivors being able to "tap" a regressing gen means the Killer wasted their time hitting that gen for no gain at all. All of the problems with basekit in the game need to be talked about, and talked about often and talked about loud until they get changed into something better for all players, no matter if they play Survivor or Killer.