Why the hell does gen-tapping exist?
Seriously, it's really annoying when you cross the damn map to kick a gen and all the survivor has to do is tap it once just for the regression to stop. Kicking a gen takes like 2 seconds while tapping a gen doesn't even take a full second, while still countering one of the main things that a killer can do. Atleast now with the new DS you can't just tap the gen mid-chase like you used to be able to. It's even more annoying if the survivor taps the gen in your face, that is, until they find out you have dragons grip.
Survivors should not be able to survive tap a gen, GoobyNugget.
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Dragons grip value baby!
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There is nothing they could about it. I mean really thing about it.
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I agree. Survivors being able to quickly tap a gen while it takes a killer several seconds to kick giving the survivor time to run away is annoying. Maybe there should be a small animation survivors do to fix a kicked gen. This would also stop accidentally tapping a gen when DS is active.
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They could make it so a gen doesn't stop regressing until it's been repaired for a certain amount of time. Say, you tap it and it still regresses but you repair for 3-5 seconds and it doesn't regress until kicked again. This could also help with accidental DS gen taps, you could tap it and keep DS but if you work on it for the 3-5 seconds to stop regression you lose your DS.
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I usually laugh at gen tappers - but I'm usually running Pop Goes The Weasel so they're usually doing me a favor in most cases.
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Anytime I use it they never tap the gen lol
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Bro just use ruin undying.
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PGTW + Overcharge.
I just want to set the world on fire, but I'll start with your little piece of it.
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maybe dragons grip, and maybe some oppression too perhaps?
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Isn't overcharge still the Skillcheck to go? They used to be able to just take it with them while 1 frame tapping the gen and run.
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Kicking a gen should regress a base amount equal to 2 seconds of gen repairs so its actually worth doing and if they tap it and dont repair it for the same time spent kicking it then they are at a net loss for repair progress tbh.
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I don't see why this is an issue. When survivors tap a gen, it does not passively gain progress until 100% while they go off to do other things. When killers kick a gen, it passively regresses to 0% while they go off to do other things. It makes sense that the latter action requires some modest time investment. If done at appropriate times, kicking gens should save the killer much more time than they invest with the kick.
There is no need to make any changes to this mechanic unless survivors are overperforming and this is intended as a means to adjust game balance. The mechanic itself is fine. Killers just need to be selective about which gens they kick. If a survivor is tapping a gen you just kicked and you're not running Pop, you're doing it wrong.
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My last 2 games with Oni consisted of a lot of gen tapping. One game it went on for about 15 mins, just couldn't find the one hiding amongst the circus objects on Crotus.
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It still is, but good luck hitting an Overcharge III skill check while also running away from the killer. If you're expecting the Overcharge it's doable, but it's still a tough play to make.
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It takes exactly 2 seconds to damage a gen, assuming no Brutal Strength, Fire Up, Wraith Add-ons, etc.
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Because things like Trail of Torment exists where you're forced to Tap the generator or take damage. And I'd be damned if I'm taking damage for a counterplay that can come in handy against things like surge. If you ran Pop goes the weasel, or overcharge maybe your tune would change.
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Regression is 1/4 speed of repair.
This means if you kick a gen, and you manage to keep a survivor off that gen for an entire minute... it will only take them 15 seconds to make up for what you did. Regression is honestly a joke. Which is why it's utterly useless when a survivor can just tap a gen to undo your 3 second kick animation.
Now consider that while you're spending a minute keeping a survivor off one gen, there's three other survivors out there working on other gens.
Basically for every kick, you need to make sure a survivor doesn't touch that gen for 15 seconds (12s of regression + the 3 to kick it). If they don't touch the gen for 15 seconds, you have broken even. If they tap it within those 15 seconds, you have literally wasted time and put yourself at a disadvantage, and the survivor is actually benefitting from that kick.
Now, that's not such a huge deal if a survivor has to evade you to stop your regression, that means they have to work for it, they need to execute some degree of skill to not get caught while doing it. But when they can stop it MID CHASE without even slowing them down... it's a huge liberty.
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thats the whole point of this conversation. Gen tapping is easy and counters an action that a killer has to take time to do. Kicking a gen should be stronger because weaker killers are usually forced to do this because of their otherwise lack of pressure while other killers are just zooming from gen to gen and knocking people out.
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yeah, thats what im saying. currently it does. shouldn't have to be this way.
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Weak killers innately have less pressure than strong killers. Which means they need to take more action to pressure gen repair. Kicking gens to make them regress is supposed to be that action, but it's actually counter productive because of how regression works.
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yeah I had this issue yesterday I had a survivor hooked at a gen that was at 99.
They keep running over, tap the gen in front of my damn face and then run back.
I'm like ######### I can't stop that
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a lot of killers would be able to pressure generators better if survivors couldn't gen tap.
It would fix so many issues with this game.
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It only takes 2 seconds to kick a gen, and that is certainly worth the 15 seconds of repair time in your example. It can also waste survivor time by pulling a survivor off a distant gen to try to finish a regressing gen with more progress on it. Keeping the progress on a gen lower can also potentially open up that gen for more regression later in the game, such as from Pop. Then there are the tracking benefits, as you can tell if a survivor has been on a gen you kicked. And, last but certainly not least, there are lots of perks that give additional value from kicking gens.
I would say that survivor time is roughly 1/4 as valuable as killer time, though; as in, if you waste 8 seconds of time for one of the four survivors it's probably more equivalent to 2 seconds of time for the killer. So, as killer running no perks related to gen kicking, I'd typically only kick a gen if there's a good chance that a survivor won't be back on it in the next 32 seconds. This will obviously change in some situations, though, like if I'm running kick-based perks like Trail of Torment, Pop, Dragon's Grip, Oppression, or Surveillance, or if I'm ahead in the late game and I'm content to waste a bit of patrol time for some tracking (with the possible regression just being gravy).
Also, FWIW, it's not possible to tap a gen mid-chase without slowing down. Even if you take a half second to stop, tap the gen, and resume your chase, you're still losing 2.3m of distance on a base M1 killer, which is equivalent to about 4 seconds of chase time in a straight line. That tap could therefore easily result in earlier hits, fewer times around a loop, etc. and should ultimately result in a shorter chase. It could still be worthwhile if the regression you prevent outweighs the time you lose in the chase, but that's a big and situational "if".
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How do you come up with the metric that a survivors time is worth 1/4 in relation to killer?
In the time a killer takes their 2 seconds to kick a gen, optimally 1 survivor gets a 2 second advantage for the chase (8m distance running straight) and three others get 6 seconds of gen progress altogether. The killer would need 13 seconds to catch up in the chase (just running straight) or another 2 second kick plus 8 second regress to undo the progress for even one of the other survivor.
So to "undo" the accumulated 2 seconds of progress would take a killer 43 seconds, without moving across the map or anything like looping/perks.
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I love people telling others to just use a gen regression perk.
ah yes gotta waste a perk slot just because of gen tapping that shouldn't be a thing in the first place
this isn't healthy for the game at all
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It's admittedly a very rough metric. It's a 4v1 game and in theory 4 survivors should be about as strong as 1 killer. So, I value the killer's time roughly four times as much as an individual survivor's time while all other survivors are alive. Another way of thinking about this is that 4 survivors could repair 8 seconds worth of gens in the 2 seconds it takes a killer to damage a gen, so I want to be pretty confident I'm getting a benefit of 8+ seconds' worth of wasted survivor time if I'm going to kick a gen.
You've determined that a killer should almost never be kicking a gen before starting a chase a survivor. I agree :) The only real exceptions would be highly mobile killers running Pop.
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That's the thing, the 8 seconds of gen progress from the survivor is still 4 times more worth than what the killer can do. With basic gen regression it takes 32 seconds to undo 8 seconds of progress. So one would have to kick a gen and keep it regressing for over half a minute to get value out of it. 24 to be correct since the fourth survivor is running away and not working on a gen (in case the killer was chased of a gen and the killer didn't kick a random gen).
And yes, atm it is unadvised to kick a gen without pop. But the fact that survivor also needs only 1/4 of the time to stop the regression of what the killer needs to start it is only adding to that.
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Well, not necessarily; that's just the time from pure regression. It can waste time in other ways, as I called out in my other comment. But still, yes, the takeaway is that killers should only be kicking gens in favorable situations unless they're running kicking-related perks.
I don't see this as a problem, though, for a few reasons. One, this is just one of dozens of levers the devs can pull to shift game balance towards killer; the mechanic itself isn't fundamentally flawed. With rank-based matchmaking, killers do not need help. Perhaps this will change with MMR, but BHVR hasn't realeased any data and it's too early to say. Two, the potential payoff from regressing gens is both huge and passive, so it makes sense that killers should have to invest time and take on a bit of risk to get that payoff. Three, if gen kicking & regression were buffed, that would disproportionately hurt solo queue. SWF can communicate which gens are regressing and how much progress is on them. Solo can't. Ruin already has this issue, which isn't ideal, but buffing regression (by increased speed, making tapping impossible, etc.) just bakes it even more firmly into the base game.
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Gen Tapping should be reworked in which, you cannot spend less then a second to undo the action of one Killer's damage! It should be.... When a Survivor works on a gen; it takes double the amount of time it takes to fix a gen from regression! If it takes 2 seconds to damage a gen, it also takes 4 seconds to fix it back up, so that it doesn't Regress!
Or at least, buff the regression rate for both base killer and Hex Ruin; to do double it! The new implemented regression will do 1/2 charge per second, instead of 1/4 when you kick a gen; and Hex Ruin will passive do 1 charge regression per second, as long as it remain on the map!
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