Let's speak clearly of the "hatch issue": from definitions to remedies

@powerbats

The hatch conditions are theoretically not free, but practically are.
You need a VERY suicidal team in order to have 3 of them die before you have 2 gens done. (80 seconds or at worst 160 seconds.)

I am often able to do is all alone, and you have 3 other teammates!
What you call "Conditions" are basically non-conditions, as much as you can say the hatch isn't a free mechanic because you need a copy of this game installed before you can use the hatch.
These type of conditions are almost always met, or are nearly deliberately avoided.

As an answer to the main post:
----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM DEFINITION----------------------------------------------------------

1. Once your teammates die, winning becomes significantly harder, making you dependant on strangers, which isn't fun.
2. Generator REGRESSION disables any opportunity for low-survivor-count generator progression and stealth gameplay.
3. This lead to a hatch mechanic which caused a giant disparity in winrate between 2 survivors and 1 survivor:

(Conditions with multiple generators measured in Survivors Alive)
4 Surv = Winnable
3 Surv = Winnable but harder
2 Surv = Barely winnable
1 Surv = Practically impossible

into

4 Surv = Winnable
3 Surv = Winnable but harder
2 Surv = Barely winnable
1 Surv = Easily winnable.

meaning that if there were 2 survivors, they would wait out the death of another.

4. It created the hatch standoff, where it would require 1 to be a "sweety" and let the other win or get the kill.

----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM ANALYSIS------------------------------------------------------------

ANALYSIS to problem 1:
The main issue here is that there is a great impact on the total survivor's efficiency once a survivor dies. If you thought losing 25% of your working force wasn't enough... it is actually worse.

There are multiple stages in the match cycle:
Stage 1: All 4 survivors are working on Gens. 100% efficiency.
Stage 2: 1 Survivor has been found and is now looping: 75% efficiency.
Stage 3: 1 Survivor has been caught and requires another survivor for the rescue and heal. 50% efficiency.
Stage 4: It is possible that a new survivor has been found and lasts long enough for the other surv to be healed, meaning they return to a 75% efficiency after the heal.
Stage 5: A survivor dies: 75% efficiency.
Stage 6: A survivor gets found and is now looping: 50% efficiency.
Stage 7: The survivor needs to be rescued and healed. while another survivor is being looped. 0-50% efficiency.

The game has to be balanced around these stages and they affect the outcome greatly.
The death of 1 survivor early can mean a difference between a 75% efficiency and a 25% efficiency.
Once there are 3 survivors, certain teams already get into the loop of getting caught > rescue > healing > getting caught and no one is doing gens anymore.

So you have a bad team? You are doomed without the hatch.

ANALYSIS to problem 2:
Generator regression is a great mechanic for killers to stall some extra time against the horse of 4 living survivors trying to scape as fast as possible and is certainly something a killer needs in their battle against short Gen times.
But once the 1st and perhaps second survivor dies, it is this mechanic that completely kills the ability for survivors to make their escape through doing multiple Gens in the late game.
Normally it would be possible to sneak around a bit. Progress generators in small pieces with the killer noticing small increases in progression, but that is no longer possible.
Generator REGRESSION forces you to Install yourself right next to a Gen until you are caught.
The sparks or lack of it directly indicate that you've touched it, notifying the killer that you are here in the area, whereas no regression mechanic wouldn't have revealed you if you only touched the Gen for a bit. The killer wouldn't have noticed a change in progress, allowing you to be sneaky.

ANALYSIS to problem 3:
The disparity between 1 and 2 survivors surviving with multiple gens is HUGE... and it is HUGE in the favour of 1 survivor. Once 2 teammates die with multiple gens, there is no way you will finish the others: Both of you are aware... one of you needs to die.
This problem is part of Problem 2. where slowly working on generators without regression would have actually given a 2 man team a decent chance to make it out together.

Because both survivors know they can't, they will either work on a Gen of which they know they won't be able to finish or they will hide and wait for the other player to die. This is no healthy gameplay.

ANALYSIS to problem 4: The hatch standoff is a problem due to the killer being able to block it in case they find it first. The killer can also grab the survivor, preventing them from being able to jump in if they are standing right on it.
On the other hand there is a problem of the hatch being considered a too easy way to escape.
So let's find a middle ground!

----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM SOLUTION-----------------------------------------------------------

SOLUTION to problem 1:
The solution to problem 1, being dependant on other survivors, can be solved by addressing the solutions in problem 2,3 and 4!

SOLUTION to problem 2:
In one of my discussions called something along the lines of"complete survivor perk overhaul", I reworked the perk called Technician in order to give it purpose. I gave it purpose by having it tackle exactly this problem:

Technician:
You are apt at handling machinery with the greatest care and precision.
Generators that you last worked on cannot be slowly regressed.
Generators that you repaired over a 95% will automatically be completed after a 10/15/20 second delay.
Details:
Technician only works if you were the last to touch a certain Gen. If multiple people work on it and you leave if before the others do, then the Gen can still regress.
The Killer can still kick that Gen but no sparks will be on that gen. It will not give the killer any points.
Pop Goes The Weasel will still regress the Gen, but no further regression will occur after.

Now players will be able to play their late-game stealth builds if they wish to do so and could even with without the hatch by letting only the technician work on the Gen's or staying together.

SOLUTION to problem 3:
The Technician rework solves this issue of 2 survivors having to wait each others' death out. If they do not run the perk, they have accepted these terms.

SOLUTION to problem 4:

-Every map spawns 4 chests, but 1 chest has a special appearance and Contains a "Rusty Key".
-The rusty key's effects only come into play when there is only 1 remaining survivor!!!;
-Whoever wields this key will be downed in 1 hit and can be moried after.
-The key is a special item: It doesn't take up your 1 and only item slot.
-The key cannot normally be dropped. It is automatically dropped upon: Being hooked/Upon Dying/Franklins Demise.
-The key can only be used to open the Hatch (when you are the last living survivor).
-The key is dropped upon leaving through the exit gates and is consumed upon entering the hatch.
-The rusty key can open the hatch even while in the downed state.

Now here is how the hatch will work:

-Once you are the only survivor, a hatch opens, making it's usual sound.
-A killer can close the hatch, removing the sound and forcing the survivor to search harder + find the Rusty Key.
-A killer cannot grab a survivor entering the hatch.
-A killer standing on the hatch will not prevent the survivor from entering.

So there is no longer a hatch stand-off; A survivor can just Run to the hatch and once they arrive there and/or manage to be downed close enough to it, they win.
But due to the Rusty Key mechanic, IF the killer manages to find the hatch first, they will have a great advantage over the fight. It will take the survivor significantly longer to find it, and in order to now be able to open it, they NEED a key that will give them the EXPOSED effect. This allows the killer to guard the hatch and manage to get the kill if they manage to hit the survivor a few meters away from the hatch.
A free mori for good measure and that settles the Hatch problem.

THE END~

(And for people interested in some game-play details as a result from these machanics:
In funny cases, a survivor will have takes the Rusty Key away from the chest, forcing you to look around hooks or memorizing where someone bled out/got moried.
These type of scenario's can be frustrating in a very thematically fitting way; "I can't find the key".

If the killer found the hatch first and you find the Rusty Key, then it is your mission to sneak up to the hatch (and possibly killer), as even though you can enter it without being stopped, you can be downed before reaching it.
Deliberately remaining in the dying state to dead hard your way into the hatch is a strategy you can use in open-field hatches where it is harder to sneak in. A quick juke or 360 may be the difference between life and death.

@Wolf74 No you didn't do anything except repeat your same free escape nonsense that got debunked repeatedly. We both gave you facts and the logic to back them up and then you resorted to your usual logical fallacies routine.

But you're right there's no sense is discussing this anymore not because we're trying to win but because you just don't want to admit that it's not a free escape.

This was never about winning but using actual facts and logic and not preconceived biases and emotions when ones facts and logic don't add up.

The problem with the hatch is it's encourages doing nothing helpful but still escaping also alot of swf dc so the other can get the hatch. It really isn't fair how the killer outplayed the survivors they failed there objective of powering the exit gates but they get a free escape for losing? Not in any game there should be some mechanic where it gives you a win for losing that ridiculous. The hatch should be removed period but it obviously won't happen because the entitled survivors will review bombed the game because they can't win anymore from losing and get free escape.

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

• One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.
• One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.
• One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.
• Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.
• Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.
• Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

Yes, I know how they work. When the trial starts each trap is assigned a jigsaw box that removes the RBT. They have 2 min 30 seconds from the time gen activates to find that box.
If they don't, it activates, killing them.
The RBT timer does not run during chases, being hooked, or being slugged.
It goes off at a certain proximity to the exit regardless. It can be bypassed through a hatch escape.
Basically.

I didn't ask if you thought survivors could get a trap off, and escape. It's obvious that as a group, they can.
I'm asking how realistic you think it is for a lone survivor, 3 of the 4 sacrificed, or exited, to get the right Jigsaw Box, find the hatch, and escape with a not potato Pig player after them?

I'm not trying to be mean about it, I just want to get some idea of how good you think the average survivor can handle the situation.

I figured that's where you were going with this, and to be frank, the answer is relative and only leads into a subjective territory that we couldn't escape from without data that's relevant to the respective population. I mean, I tried taking the existing balance within the game as an implication of what data the devs have, then made inferences about balancing that would be fair. At least that's what I attempted to do by pointing out that the conditions to leave through a regular exit gate and the hatch are very different. If I can trust existing balancing to be a rough indicator of what's fair, then the current hatch mechanics don't make much sense to me, given that it's a more powerful exit that requires less effort to use.

But to be fair, and make an argument against killers; survivors are supposed to function as a single unit, and what's left of their team essentially represents the trial's progress, and who's winning. So, when there's only one survivor left, that whole unit is crippled, and the killer has secured victory. And, even though it's a single person leaving through the hatch, they represent what's left of the survivor's team. After survivors have lost, they should be eligible for the compensation provided by the hatch. But, if they have cleaned house, I don't see why they should be allowed to use something that can negate a killer's power. The killer should be compensated if he's losing by not letting the hatch open, if no survs died which would be fair according to what the devs defined as a tie.

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

• One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.
• One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.
• One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.
• Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.
• Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.
• Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

Yes, I know how they work. When the trial starts each trap is assigned a jigsaw box that removes the RBT. They have 2 min 30 seconds from the time gen activates to find that box.
If they don't, it activates, killing them.
The RBT timer does not run during chases, being hooked, or being slugged.
It goes off at a certain proximity to the exit regardless. It can be bypassed through a hatch escape.
Basically.

I didn't ask if you thought survivors could get a trap off, and escape. It's obvious that as a group, they can.
I'm asking how realistic you think it is for a lone survivor, 3 of the 4 sacrificed, or exited, to get the right Jigsaw Box, find the hatch, and escape with a not potato Pig player after them?

I'm not trying to be mean about it, I just want to get some idea of how good you think the average survivor can handle the situation.

I figured that's where you were going with this, and to be frank, the answer is relative and only leads into a subjective territory that we couldn't escape from without data that's relevant to the respective population. I mean, I tried taking the existing balance within the game as an implication of what data the devs have, then made inferences about balancing that would be fair. At least that's what I attempted to do by pointing out that the conditions to leave through a regular exit gate and the hatch are very different. If I can trust existing balancing to be a rough indicator of what's fair, then the current hatch mechanics don't make much sense to me, given that it's a more powerful exit that requires less effort to use.

But to be fair, and make an argument against killers; survivors are supposed to function as a single unit, and what's left of their team essentially represents the trial's progress, and who's winning. So, when there's only one survivor left, that whole unit is crippled, and the killer has secured victory. And, even though it's a single person leaving through the hatch, they represent what's left of the survivor's team. After survivors have lost, they should be eligible for the compensation provided by the hatch. But, if they have cleaned house, I don't see why they should be allowed to use something that can negate a killer's power. The killer should be compensated if he's losing by not letting the hatch open, if no survs died which would be fair according to what the devs defined as a tie.

Yes, you knew where I was going with it, and you still dodged the question. C'mon, man.
I want an answer. Your honest opinion.
Do you think the average survivor, alone, could take the time to remove an RBT, and find the hatch against the average Pig?
Lets try the above average pig with tracking perks.
Or just patrolling knowing the survivor has to get things done, which narrows their objectives.
Think the survivors might DC more? Not only to give the hatch, but so they they don't have to put up with an escape stacked too heavily in favor of the killer?

Seriously, if the hatch is too damn hard to open, or use, it may as well be gone, and anything short of opening the gates, or having 1 gen left as the last person alive means the last survivor should just walk up to the killer to die.
I'd like to think we both know that's bullshit.
At that point it's not a victory for the killer, it's ######### pity by means of game mechanics. On the killer.
And mercy for the survivor.
There's no challenge left for the killer who can patrol the rest of the objectives, and tunnel down the last survivor.
The last survivor probably won't want to deal with that crap. Game mechanics pretending they have a decent chance. They'll DC, or worse leave, or review bomb.
Otherwise the survivor has to go through what ever obstacles are left to get the gates open, or what ever reworks the hatch gets while the killer can basically hold the game hostage, or press their advantage.

Can we try to be realistic? If it's impossible, or close to impossible for a survivor to survive, even now, they'll DC. Can you imagine what it would be like if they knew they were caught between a rock, and a hard place with the hatch thoroughly guarded?

From a lore standpoint, utterly cutting off hope from a survivor goes directly against what the Entity wants. The entity doesn't want people giving up, and losing hope. The hatch gives people the hope of escape when the odds would be severely close to impossible otherwise.

The "data" is borked. It's full of DCs, people killing themselves, moris, and so forth. Not straight sacrifices. C'mon. That data is nothing to go on in terms of "balance."

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

I've gotten 1-4 kills with NOED before it's feast or famine really and sometimes it activates and out of the 5 totems still left it will often choose one right next to an exit gate.

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

Hatch doesn't open until everyone else is dead. Even then, it only sometimes allows what? 1 survivor to escape? That is if the killer doesn't find them first.

I never said that NOED counters the hatch - he asked what the "safety net" mechanic for killer was and I said that NOED is the killer's safety net. I then went on to argue that NOED is more of a safety net/crutch than the hatch, and also that it's easier to secure kills with NOED than it is for the last survivor to escape through the hatch, giving reasons for both viewpoints.

If you want to read my arguments above and then bring up more points to refute them, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue further. I'd just rather not have to repeat myself, that's all.

@Carpemortum said:

The noed safety net can be removed before useful. The hatch cannot.

The latter is technically untrue since the hatch can't spawn unless 2 gens are done so by not letting 2 gens be done you can remove the hatch before it's useful. You can also kill all 4 survivors before it spawns also removing it before it becomes useful. 😁

@Wolf74 said:

@powerbats said:

@Carpemortum said:

The noed safety net can be removed before useful. The hatch cannot.

The latter is technically untrue since the hatch can't spawn unless 2 gens are done so by not letting 2 gens be done you can remove the hatch before it's useful. You can also kill all 4 survivors before it spawns also removing it before it becomes useful. 😁

And again… comparing apples and oranges.

So if Noed goes of is in whos control? Survivor.
And if the hatch spawns is in whos control? Survivor.

I still wait for the game mechanic that prevents the 4th survivor from escaping.

Or at least that the hatch does not open if ANY survivor already escaped.

And again Straw Mans and again fail..

Wrong, both sides since the killer can insta down while the survivor depending on how many are left/on the hook have to decide what to do. Do they unhook, go for the gates, exit, hide, look for the totem.

Wrong again, since the survivor has to actually make it to the hatch while the killer usually is already there and can stop the survivor.

No what you want is a free 4th kill mechanic that you don't want to work for.

The last part is fine, since if someone's already escaped through the gates the exit gates are their only escape. The only exception would be the where did they all go achievement since that'd follow it's normal rules still.

But the hatch would still automatically close after 30 seconds and then get locked again after it's been opened with a key. In that case after the timer goes off.

For em personally I think the killer should be able to close it and when they do the survivor gets a notification of some kind from the entity. It should take 5-10 seconds to permanently close it (key still works) so the survivor can then decide which gate they want to go to.

Once the killer closes it both exit gates are powered and the survivor has the haste effect similar to hope. But after 15 seconds they have the exposed effect and the killer can mori them. Some special conditions should apply for both sides.for either side, so none of the following.

Whisper
Spies From The Shadows
No Premonition/Spine Chill
No usage of perks/addons (ie so no SB/DH/AD No going Invisible, no insta downs until after the 15 seconds.

In other words is perkless/addonless no special abilities etc for either side at that point. Again this is only when 1 survivor is left and everything is about even. No Dying Light/Remember me etc it's 15 seconds to open the gate.

This might be a little too complicated but both sides would have an equal chance although still favoring the killer. It might need some tweaking to ensure killers have a slightly better chance there.

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

• One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.
• One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.
• One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.
• Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.
• Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.
• Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

Yes, I know how they work. When the trial starts each trap is assigned a jigsaw box that removes the RBT. They have 2 min 30 seconds from the time gen activates to find that box.
If they don't, it activates, killing them.
The RBT timer does not run during chases, being hooked, or being slugged.
It goes off at a certain proximity to the exit regardless. It can be bypassed through a hatch escape.
Basically.

I didn't ask if you thought survivors could get a trap off, and escape. It's obvious that as a group, they can.
I'm asking how realistic you think it is for a lone survivor, 3 of the 4 sacrificed, or exited, to get the right Jigsaw Box, find the hatch, and escape with a not potato Pig player after them?

I'm not trying to be mean about it, I just want to get some idea of how good you think the average survivor can handle the situation.

I figured that's where you were going with this, and to be frank, the answer is relative and only leads into a subjective territory that we couldn't escape from without data that's relevant to the respective population. I mean, I tried taking the existing balance within the game as an implication of what data the devs have, then made inferences about balancing that would be fair. At least that's what I attempted to do by pointing out that the conditions to leave through a regular exit gate and the hatch are very different. If I can trust existing balancing to be a rough indicator of what's fair, then the current hatch mechanics don't make much sense to me, given that it's a more powerful exit that requires less effort to use.

But to be fair, and make an argument against killers; survivors are supposed to function as a single unit, and what's left of their team essentially represents the trial's progress, and who's winning. So, when there's only one survivor left, that whole unit is crippled, and the killer has secured victory. And, even though it's a single person leaving through the hatch, they represent what's left of the survivor's team. After survivors have lost, they should be eligible for the compensation provided by the hatch. But, if they have cleaned house, I don't see why they should be allowed to use something that can negate a killer's power. The killer should be compensated if he's losing by not letting the hatch open, if no survs died which would be fair according to what the devs defined as a tie.

Yes, you knew where I was going with it, and you still dodged the question. C'mon, man.
I want an answer. Your honest opinion.
Do you think the average survivor, alone, could take the time to remove an RBT, and find the hatch against the average Pig?
Lets try the above average pig with tracking perks.
Or just patrolling knowing the survivor has to get things done, which narrows their objectives.
Think the survivors might DC more? Not only to give the hatch, but so they they don't have to put up with an escape stacked too heavily in favor of the killer?

Seriously, if the hatch is too damn hard to open, or use, it may as well be gone, and anything short of opening the gates, or having 1 gen left as the last person alive means the last survivor should just walk up to the killer to die.
I'd like to think we both know that's bullshit.
At that point it's not a victory for the killer, it's [BAD WORD] pity by means of game mechanics. On the killer.
And mercy for the survivor.
There's no challenge left for the killer who can patrol the rest of the objectives, and tunnel down the last survivor.
The last survivor probably won't want to deal with that crap. Game mechanics pretending they have a decent chance. They'll DC, or worse leave, or review bomb.
Otherwise the survivor has to go through what ever obstacles are left to get the gates open, or what ever reworks the hatch gets while the killer can basically hold the game hostage, or press their advantage.

Can we try to be realistic? If it's impossible, or close to impossible for a survivor to survive, even now, they'll DC. Can you imagine what it would be like if they knew they were caught between a rock, and a hard place with the hatch thoroughly guarded?

From a lore standpoint, utterly cutting off hope from a survivor goes directly against what the Entity wants. The entity doesn't want people giving up, and losing hope. The hatch gives people the hope of escape when the odds would be severely close to impossible otherwise.

The "data" is borked. It's full of DCs, people killing themselves, moris, and so forth. Not straight sacrifices. C'mon. That data is nothing to go on in terms of "balance."

Haha, and you still go for it, tsk tsk. As a side note, I said in an earlier response to you that I am 100% positive that a survivor could remove their RBT before escaping through the hatch, or the exit gate.

apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

• One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.
• One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.
• One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.
• Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.
• Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.
• Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

Yes, I know how they work. When the trial starts each trap is assigned a jigsaw box that removes the RBT. They have 2 min 30 seconds from the time gen activates to find that box.
If they don't, it activates, killing them.
The RBT timer does not run during chases, being hooked, or being slugged.
It goes off at a certain proximity to the exit regardless. It can be bypassed through a hatch escape.
Basically.

I didn't ask if you thought survivors could get a trap off, and escape. It's obvious that as a group, they can.
I'm asking how realistic you think it is for a lone survivor, 3 of the 4 sacrificed, or exited, to get the right Jigsaw Box, find the hatch, and escape with a not potato Pig player after them?

I'm not trying to be mean about it, I just want to get some idea of how good you think the average survivor can handle the situation.

I figured that's where you were going with this, and to be frank, the answer is relative and only leads into a subjective territory that we couldn't escape from without data that's relevant to the respective population. I mean, I tried taking the existing balance within the game as an implication of what data the devs have, then made inferences about balancing that would be fair. At least that's what I attempted to do by pointing out that the conditions to leave through a regular exit gate and the hatch are very different. If I can trust existing balancing to be a rough indicator of what's fair, then the current hatch mechanics don't make much sense to me, given that it's a more powerful exit that requires less effort to use.

But to be fair, and make an argument against killers; survivors are supposed to function as a single unit, and what's left of their team essentially represents the trial's progress, and who's winning. So, when there's only one survivor left, that whole unit is crippled, and the killer has secured victory. And, even though it's a single person leaving through the hatch, they represent what's left of the survivor's team. After survivors have lost, they should be eligible for the compensation provided by the hatch. But, if they have cleaned house, I don't see why they should be allowed to use something that can negate a killer's power. The killer should be compensated if he's losing by not letting the hatch open, if no survs died which would be fair according to what the devs defined as a tie.

Yes, you knew where I was going with it, and you still dodged the question. C'mon, man.
I want an answer. Your honest opinion.
Do you think the average survivor, alone, could take the time to remove an RBT, and find the hatch against the average Pig?
Lets try the above average pig with tracking perks.
Or just patrolling knowing the survivor has to get things done, which narrows their objectives.
Think the survivors might DC more? Not only to give the hatch, but so they they don't have to put up with an escape stacked too heavily in favor of the killer?

Seriously, if the hatch is too damn hard to open, or use, it may as well be gone, and anything short of opening the gates, or having 1 gen left as the last person alive means the last survivor should just walk up to the killer to die.
I'd like to think we both know that's bullshit.
At that point it's not a victory for the killer, it's [BAD WORD] pity by means of game mechanics. On the killer.
And mercy for the survivor.
There's no challenge left for the killer who can patrol the rest of the objectives, and tunnel down the last survivor.
The last survivor probably won't want to deal with that crap. Game mechanics pretending they have a decent chance. They'll DC, or worse leave, or review bomb.
Otherwise the survivor has to go through what ever obstacles are left to get the gates open, or what ever reworks the hatch gets while the killer can basically hold the game hostage, or press their advantage.

Can we try to be realistic? If it's impossible, or close to impossible for a survivor to survive, even now, they'll DC. Can you imagine what it would be like if they knew they were caught between a rock, and a hard place with the hatch thoroughly guarded?

From a lore standpoint, utterly cutting off hope from a survivor goes directly against what the Entity wants. The entity doesn't want people giving up, and losing hope. The hatch gives people the hope of escape when the odds would be severely close to impossible otherwise.

The "data" is borked. It's full of DCs, people killing themselves, moris, and so forth. Not straight sacrifices. C'mon. That data is nothing to go on in terms of "balance."

Haha, and you still go for it, tsk tsk. As a side note, I said in an earlier response to you that I am 100% positive that a survivor could remove their RBT before escaping through the hatch, or the exit gate.

@apropos said:

@Cardgrey said:
U people =p u all should just try having fun.
And u all must be all stars cause I’m happy if I get 3.
If u want to fix the issue why not if the killer wins survivors lose all bp. And if survivors win killer loses all bp. Seems to me u need a I win or u lose screen.lol

What if... they are having fun

Good point I hope they are. And I respect mr Powerbats.
That said why not have the hatch spawn as is if a key is brought in. Or spawn as is if found in game. Were it doesn’t spawn otherwise until the 3rd is dead . Give survivors exposed. And the exposed goes away if the hatch is camped for say 20 seconds or longer.with both not knowing were the hatch is.
Just a idea

@Global said:

@Fibijean said:

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

Hatch doesn't open until everyone else is dead. Even then, it only sometimes allows what? 1 survivor to escape? That is if the killer doesn't find them first.

I never said that NOED counters the hatch - he asked what the "safety net" mechanic for killer was and I said that NOED is the killer's safety net. I then went on to argue that NOED is more of a safety net/crutch than the hatch, and also that it's easier to secure kills with NOED than it is for the last survivor to escape through the hatch, giving reasons for both viewpoints.

If you want to read my arguments above and then bring up more points to refute them, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue further. I'd just rather not have to repeat myself, that's all.

Hatch can still open if everyone is alive with a key (this is why hatch is bullshit because no you dont need to be last. If you have a coordinated team everyone can leave with 2 gens still left.) . Yea NOED imo is a crap perk that shouldnt of been buffed. Before the buff I wouldnt consider it a crutch because you would have to of invested some BP into the RNG based bloodweb leveling system but now it makes my blood boil when i do play survivor and havent been downed the entire game because of how ######### the killer is just to get [BAD WORD] a NOED tier 1.

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree. I agree that the hatch mechanic is fatally flawed, but not because all the survivors can use it to escape by taking a very- or ultra-rare item. By that logic, moris are also broken and unfair, which I don't think they are. They provide an enormous advantage to the killer in completing their objective, similarly to how the hatch provides survivors with keys and their teammates an enormous advantage in completing theirs. But that's okay, because they're very rare and relatively expensive, and that's what rare and expensive items/addons/offerings on both sides are designed to do.

(I do feel the need to point out that your statement that a coordinated team can escape through the hatch having only completed 3 generators is incorrect, unless by "coordinated team" you mean "two coordinated survivors and two dead ones". For a team of 4 living survivors, coordinated or not, such an escape is impossible since all 5 generators have to be completed in that scenario for the hatch to even spawn.)

As I said, I do agree with you that the hatch is fundamentally flawed, but not because skeleton keys exist - I outlined the inconsistency in that line of logic above. The hatch is a flawed mechanic because it has the potential to create a stalemate scenario, and stalemates in games should be avoided under any circumstances, because they're not fun at all for either side.

@Wolf74 said:

@BigBubs said:
There's no "hatch issue" as far as I know. It's those who make up this issue who have a problem with it.

1.Why do survivor have a free game mechanic that is made to rob the killer of a deserved 4K?
2.Why does the killer not have any free game mechanic that is made to avoid that 4 survivor escape?
3.Why does the hatch open if anybody else already escaped?
4.Why has the survivor the upper hand in a hatch stand off?

Why keep reposting something you know isn't true and has already been debunked.

1, It's not free because free would mean they wouldn't have to do anything at all as in at 5 gens lef the hatch would spawn and be open.

Free would mean the survivor could walk in the open to the hatch and jump in all while being completely invulnerable to the killers attacks.

Free would mean the killer couldn't grab them as they jumped in and that no gens would have to be powered let alone 2 to get the hatch to spawn.

Also the killer isn't entitled to a 4k, they need to kill that last survivor not have it handed to them or are you saying YOU'RE ENTITLED TO A FREE KILL?

2. The killer doesn't get a free mechanic because the survivors don't have a free escape either as proven above. If the 4 survivors live till the hatch spawns that's the killers fault and if they get out with a key that's the killers fault.

3. Agreed as before, if the gates are opened and someone gets out then the hatch should be closed and unusable unless that last person has a key.

4. Wait what, since when if the killer is standing there the killer has the advantage since the survivor can't jump in or they get grabbed. So don't go using that nonsense that the survivor has the advantage there, if you want that kill you'll get it.

What you're complaining about is that it isn't a free kill that you feel entitled to which again you want that kill earn it. If a hatch standoff last an hour you've got no one to blame but yourself because if you get to a hatch standoff.

Because you ego just cost you multiple games worth of bp just so you get that entitled 4th kill while everyone else that lets them go or smacks them and lets them go, Just earned 2-5x as much bp as you did by playing many more games.

The only one to blame in a hatch standoff is the person that is feeling entitled to something on either side and because their epeen is so huge they do it.

Finally the only way you get robbed of a 4th kill is if the person dc's on you, because other than that you're acting entitled to something that's not yours.

@Raptorrotas said:
No killer can geht a kill withou finding, chasing, and hooking a survivor.
For hatch, you can just hope your Team does 2 gens and then dies, you find the hatch and escape with  possibly just 7k bloodpoints. So yes, hatch can possibly be free.

It can possibly be free is the key word here, it's never guaranteed to be free though.

Edit stupid auto correct

@Visionmaker said:
Wolf74 said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

Wolf74 said:

@BigBubs said:

There's no "hatch issue" as far as I know. It's those who make up this issue who have a problem with it.

1.Why do survivor have a free game mechanic that is made to rob the killer of a deserved 4K?

2.Why does the killer not have any free game mechanic that is made to avoid that 4 survivor escape?

3.Why does the hatch open if anybody else already escaped?

4.Why has the survivor the upper hand in a hatch stand off?

1: you don't deserve it as much as you think if you do nothing to prepare for it.

2: Killers do. Slug the last 2. Or even 3. Or stand on the hatch. Or near it and grab the survivor as they jump in. Or know where it is, and try to intercept the survivor. Especially with a one hit down killer, or perk like Rancor, or some such.

3: you got me here. It's kinda annoying when they go out of their way to hatch play. Especially when the gate is way more viable. 

4: I don't believe they do. Just mind game them. Bait them into trying for the hatch, then grab them. Or stand on it, and do something else.

1.How does a killer not deserve it? Did the other 3 die from old age? Actually I am fine with a 3k IF I could get a similar mechanic for killer to avoid 4 escape.

• Actually nothing you said answered the question. Please reread the question, because I don't think you actually thought that through.

• Thanks we can agree at least on one point.

• The hatch stand off is a game of stubbornness. If the killer swings, he lost. His only chance is to grab. Perks can't be the answer to this question, since the survivor doesn't need any perks for this either.

There is rumored to be a game mechanic where the killer never decreases in power throughout the game, whereas survivors get exponentially weaker when they're eliminated...

Some say the hatch is to counterbalance that because it was never about "deserving" anything...

Seems crazy, right? Something to stop everyone surviving, it's almost like you have an entire match to kill people or something, lol.

@Carpemortum said:
Global said:

@Fibijean said:

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

Hatch doesn't open until everyone else is dead. Even then, it only sometimes allows what? 1 survivor to escape? That is if the killer doesn't find them first.

I never said that NOED counters the hatch - he asked what the "safety net" mechanic for killer was and I said that NOED is the killer's safety net. I then went on to argue that NOED is more of a safety net/crutch than the hatch, and also that it's easier to secure kills with NOED than it is for the last survivor to escape through the hatch, giving reasons for both viewpoints.

If you want to read my arguments above and then bring up more points to refute them, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue further. I'd just rather not have to repeat myself, that's all.

Hatch can still open if everyone is alive with a key (this is why hatch is bullshit because no you dont need to be last. If you have a coordinated team everyone can leave with 2 gens still left.) . Yea NOED imo is a crap perk that shouldnt of been buffed. Before the buff I wouldnt consider it a crutch because you would have to of invested some BP into the RNG based bloodweb leveling system but now it makes my blood boil when i do play survivor and havent been downed the entire game because of how ######### the killer is just to get [BAD WORD] a NOED tier 1.

That actually is untrue. It will not spawn unless there are X+1 generators done where X is alive survivors. So a full team would need to power 5 generators and then use a key. 

These people still don't even know how the game works, no wonder there is no end of complaints from the same people.

All Alive = 5 Gens Done
3 Alive = 4 Gens Done
2 Alive = 3 Gens Done
1 Alive = 2 Gens Done

https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Black_Lock

Just because I'll get called a liar if i don't post proof lmfao.

People really be making statements and not having any idea what does and doesn't work.
How do I facepalm

@SenzuDuck said:

@Carpemortum said:
Global said:

@Fibijean said:

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

Hatch doesn't open until everyone else is dead. Even then, it only sometimes allows what? 1 survivor to escape? That is if the killer doesn't find them first.

I never said that NOED counters the hatch - he asked what the "safety net" mechanic for killer was and I said that NOED is the killer's safety net. I then went on to argue that NOED is more of a safety net/crutch than the hatch, and also that it's easier to secure kills with NOED than it is for the last survivor to escape through the hatch, giving reasons for both viewpoints.

If you want to read my arguments above and then bring up more points to refute them, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue further. I'd just rather not have to repeat myself, that's all.

Hatch can still open if everyone is alive with a key (this is why hatch is bullshit because no you dont need to be last. If you have a coordinated team everyone can leave with 2 gens still left.) . Yea NOED imo is a crap perk that shouldnt of been buffed. Before the buff I wouldnt consider it a crutch because you would have to of invested some BP into the RNG based bloodweb leveling system but now it makes my blood boil when i do play survivor and havent been downed the entire game because of how ######### the killer is just to get [BAD WORD] a NOED tier 1.

That actually is untrue. It will not spawn unless there are X+1 generators done where X is alive survivors. So a full team would need to power 5 generators and then use a key. 

These people still don't even know how the game works, no wonder there is no end of complaints from the same people.

All Alive = 5 Gens Done
3 Alive = 4 Gens Done
2 Alive = 3 Gens Done
1 Alive = 2 Gens Done

https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Black_Lock

Just because I'll get called a liar if i don't post proof lmfao.

People really be making statements and not having any idea what does and doesn't work.
How do I facepalm

I got the number wrong okay. Off by one lynch me please. That still defeats the fact that survivors dont need to finish their objective to win.

Global said:

@SenzuDuck said:

@Carpemortum said:
Global said:

@Fibijean said:

@Global said:

NOED doesnt activate until the doors open. it doesnt counter hacth. Even then it onjly sometimes give you what? 1 kill? Thats if it doesnt get taken down first.

Hatch doesn't open until everyone else is dead. Even then, it only sometimes allows what? 1 survivor to escape? That is if the killer doesn't find them first.

I never said that NOED counters the hatch - he asked what the "safety net" mechanic for killer was and I said that NOED is the killer's safety net. I then went on to argue that NOED is more of a safety net/crutch than the hatch, and also that it's easier to secure kills with NOED than it is for the last survivor to escape through the hatch, giving reasons for both viewpoints.

If you want to read my arguments above and then bring up more points to refute them, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue further. I'd just rather not have to repeat myself, that's all.

Hatch can still open if everyone is alive with a key (this is why hatch is bullshit because no you dont need to be last. If you have a coordinated team everyone can leave with 2 gens still left.) . Yea NOED imo is a crap perk that shouldnt of been buffed. Before the buff I wouldnt consider it a crutch because you would have to of invested some BP into the RNG based bloodweb leveling system but now it makes my blood boil when i do play survivor and havent been downed the entire game because of how ######### the killer is just to get [BAD WORD] a NOED tier 1.

That actually is untrue. It will not spawn unless there are X+1 generators done where X is alive survivors. So a full team would need to power 5 generators and then use a key. 

These people still don't even know how the game works, no wonder there is no end of complaints from the same people.

All Alive = 5 Gens Done
3 Alive = 4 Gens Done
2 Alive = 3 Gens Done
1 Alive = 2 Gens Done

https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Black_Lock

Just because I'll get called a liar if i don't post proof lmfao.

People really be making statements and not having any idea what does and doesn't work.
How do I facepalm

I got the number wrong okay. Off by one lynch me please. That still defeats the fact that survivors dont need to finish their objective to win.

@Visionmaker said:
@Global said:

@SenzuDuck said:

These people still don't even know how the game works, no wonder there is no end of complaints from the same people.

All Alive = 5 Gens Done

3 Alive = 4 Gens Done

2 Alive = 3 Gens Done

1 Alive = 2 Gens Done

https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Black_Lock

Just because I'll get called a liar if i don't post proof lmfao.

People really be making statements and not having any idea what does and doesn't work. 

How do I facepalm

I got the number wrong okay. Off by one lynch me please. That still defeats the fact that survivors dont need to finish their objective to win.

It's obvious you don't play survivor much at all since you have a distorted conception of how easy it is to get the hatch.

The hatch is a survivor objective. You literally get objective points for it. It is, in fact, one of their three core objectives. Killers don't need to finish their objective to win either, so I don't get your point.

What is a killers win if they dont have to finisht the objective to do it? And i have rank 1 on both sides so yea i guess i have no experience in the game.

@Visionmaker said:

There is rumored to be a game mechanic where the killer never decreases in power throughout the game, whereas survivors get exponentially weaker when they're eliminated...

Some say the hatch is to counterbalance that because it was never about "deserving" anything...

Hit the nail on the head. Man, I wish I could upvote this more than once.