Tricksters Knives shouldn't decay over time. Survivors should manually have to pull them out.
Something like 1.5 seconds to start the action, then start removing one laceration every 1.5 seconds.
If somebody just tightly loops something with high walls for 15-20 seconds, you lose all value from knives you've landed thus far.
If you land some good long range knife shots, but it's not enough to outright damage, they mean absolutely nothing.
This doesn't laceration difficult to get rid of outside of chase (at most, this is a 12 second action).
Comments
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I like it since it will make him have some map pressure but wouldn't you be able to take them off in chase
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I love that idea.
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No. That actually turns him into a ranged Legion. Just... no. If he needs alterations, it's not to make his counter play be M1 simulators.
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This is not the idea, because if you know how to be consistent. Usually the laceration won't go down most of the time. I don't have a problem with the laceration meter, and we will be seeing more dc's against him which I already get all the time, because I'm really good at him, and it's hard to have a full round without someone opting out on hook or dc'ing. So this will only create more problems where survivors just give up or dc. Make his movement speed 115% so tiles can be played a lot easier to where laceration won't have a chance to go down.
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"Consistent" by not abandoning the chase because it's taking too long, you mean? Trickster suffers from not being able to spread pressure easily because of laceration decay. Huntress can apply pressure with actual damage, Trickster just gives small boo-boos that go away. Survivors absolutely do not fear his knives, and will take several before they consider moving. There's no reason to do anything cool with them, no reason to bother hitting anyone else with knives EXCEPT someone you plan to tunnel... it's depressing.
Streamers have said it better than me. I'm not citing them because I don't want to be a robot, however Tru3 put the "sunken cost" problem into words for me, and it makes sense.
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Just reduce the laceration decay rate while in a chase or while the survivor is running. Rewards the survivor for dropping the chase or not just holding W. Killer doesn't feel pressured to land knifes every couple seconds.
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I don't want to be that guy, but I'm saying if you don't know how to run tiles with his knives then that's a problem on your end. There's methods with him that make it easy to throw at people at solid loops. Like knife curving, and needle threading. People don't expect it, because people don't know about it. The chase won't take too long if you know how to run tiles, and mind game. There's a reason why I get so many dc's and people giving up on first hook pretty much every single game, it's because people don't expect for me to actually be highly skilled with him, and they doubt me at first. You also gotta remember most of these streamers also don't have much of an idea how to play him. Tru3 is a mixed bag, because he also doesn't know how to play him correctly either, and yes I have watched a ton of his Trickster videos. He still doesn't know how to play him correctly. I do enjoy his content though. I just think if we get into the territory of asking the people with already hundreds of hours into him or the people that have like 10 hours in him. There's a huge gap in between opinion, because there is a lot of tricks that you can pull off that make him a lot better to play. Now playing against a deathsquad on him is a nightmare, and I can tell you that from my experience, but even against some pretty solid players I don't have a problem.
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Consistent aim isn't the problem.
Doesn't matter how good you are, a decent survivor will just play high-walled loops.
Huntress lands a good hatchet, she gets damage. Immediately.
Even though he throws a bit faster, Trickster having to do that eight times for the same result, and having to do so under a time limit, leaves him in a similar camp as Twins where he simply has too much counterplay.
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I mean I do agree high wall loops are harder to deal with him. Mothers dwelling isn't also fun playing him on. The jungle gym's with the long wall on the side also isn't the greatest way to go, and I still think DS/huntress handle those loops much better on him. Don't get me wrong though I still think he's the worst ranged killer. It's not really about the aim, but also knowing methods and mindgames that allow you for you to get the knives into the person easier. I can try to get a round later on, on a certain map where you are having problems, and I can post it for you if you would like. Just let me know which map, and what you would like for me to do, so I can show you how to play a certain tile correctly with him.
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"I don't want to be that guy, but I'm saying if you don't know how to run tiles with his knives then that's a problem on your end."
Sorry to say that you are, indeed, that guy, making a Twins-level Killer out to be OP.
I guess I'm just "playing poorly" if I can't hit knives at long walls. And if I can't connect knives at shack, well that's my fault. Not the Killer's fault for being slow. :)
"There's methods with him that make it easy to throw at people at solid loops. Like knife curving, and needle threading."
I have no idea what you're talking about, sorry, Youtube isn't helping me either. Are you referring to add-ons or something? And if people don't know about it, why are you just mentioning this and expecting me, someone who isn't you, to know about it?
"The chase won't take too long if you know how to run tiles, and mind game."
Imagine trying to run tiles and mindgame as a 110% Killer with a power that slows you down.
The balance behind 110% Killers is that they have a strong power in exchange for being slow. Trickster does not have a strong power, Main Event is also bad. You shouldn't be actively trying to mindgame as a 110% Killer, because they get looped easily.
"You also gotta remember most of these streamers also don't have much of an idea how to play him. Tru3 is a mixed bag, because he also doesn't know how to play him correctly either, and yes I have watched a ton of his Trickster videos. He still doesn't know how to play him correctly. I do enjoy his content though."
Then explain to me and the forums how we commoners just "aren't playing him correctly", since you're saying that basically NOBODY knows how to play him correctly except you.
It's honestly more likely that you go against rank 20/not very skilled Survivors who don't understand how to easily bully Trickster than you actually being a Trickster god, but I'm okay with being proven wrong.
EDIT: What Bard said is also correct. Feel free to post a video that shows off what these methods are. And, if it's going to be something like "zone Survivors out of loops", good Survivors will not leave loops against Trickster, they'll take advantage of it. They'll only move if it's a loop with no walls or objects to block knives with. And if they DO move, they'll get to another loop before the slow 110% Killer catches up.
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Not really.
Legion injures people. That's his entire thing.
This does not injure people.
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I'm not talking about addons when I'm talking about needle threading or knife curving. I did say I'm willing to back up my claims, so if you would like to see a round or two on a certain map, I'm willing to post rounds on it. Just pick your realm or whatever, and I will send myself there, and post back to back rounds on him. So I can show you how I play him. There are a few other people who know how to play him correctly. Scullv2 is also incredibly good at him. There's a few people I can name that are super good at him, but I'm willing to give you gameplay for him. Needle threading is something that huntress players do also. Where you hit the hitbox of the person that's pretty much invisible or like a pixel perfect throw. Knife curving is something different.
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they are referring to pre rework legion.
Legions power back then could be abused to cheese every chase by going into frenzy, getting an unavoidable hit to take off ~30% of the survivors deep wound bar and repeat that process until they went down.
trickter would be the same, as now he could just hit a survivor with his knifes during an animation and keep that up until the survivor eventually goes down.
just like old legion, by having to mend the lacteration bar themselves, they wouldnt have the time for it mid chase, which would enable the killer to slowly but unavoidably kill the survivor, which is just no fun for anyone.
so in short, the proposed change wouldnt work, unless we made Tricksters power a non lethal one just like Legions is today.
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Not the person you replied to, but I’m working on my Trickster and I’d be interested to see how you play Suffocation Pit where the tiles all have high walls and are so easily chained together. I think this is my least favourite map for him at the moment.
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I got you bro. I will try to get that map then. :) How I usually play him though at least on suffocation is try to press one side, and don't budge, but you are allowed to budge on that map. The middle part isn't the easiest to deal with on most of the killer roaster, but I can see if I can press mid sometimes if I get that map. I have 10 macmillian offerings, so I should get it lol.
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How would it be unfair or unfun? You're supposed to fear the killer not meme in his face.
It would allow him to apply pressure on everyone who try to take knife for an ally and keep some pressure on someone he dropped a chase with by forcing them to mend or any other action. He's 110%, no where near being able to injure survivor as easily as current or old Legion. Unlike old or even current Legion he has to work to injure you but has so many country like high wall tiles or someone else taking knives for you.
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actually maybe making his knives bounce as basekit ao it can cover deadzone ?
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here, old Legion:
but yeah, lets bring that back.
old legion was such a thrilling experience for both sides, such a masterfully designed killer that we really need to bring this amazing experience back in form of the trickster.
thats exactly what this game needs!
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Trickster doesn't injure on hit with his knife, unlike old Legion.
Tricker doesn't move faster nor does he get the location of nearby survivor, he's slower.
Trickster need to hit you 16 times with his knifes to down you from full health, old legion needed to hit you like 4 times total.
It's almost as if survivor have the opportunity to juke Trickster, block LoS force the killer to move around windows/pallet or even break them to continue using his power.
Bubba and Billy are closer in term of power than old Legion and Trickster yet they are still miles apart.
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I see one problem,survivors pulling knives out mid-chase
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sigh
okay, crashcourse:
old Legion gameplay:
step 1: walk after them with your 4.4 m/s movementspeed until your power is charged enough or they are close enough to get M1ed
step 2: activate power, get a guaranteed hit that adds a lifebar on them and gets reduced with each power hit they take afterwards.
step 3: repeat step 2 until their life bar reaches 0, then hook them.
trickster gameplay with "mending":
step 1: walk after them with your 4.4 m/s movementspeed until they reach any form of window or pallet or they are close enough to get M1ed
step 2: pepper them with knifes during their drop / vault animation, adding a laceration bar on them that increases with each power hit they take afterwards.
setp 3: repeat step 2 until their laceration bar reaches 100% twice, then hook them.
literally the only difference between the two is based on how the lifebar is added, with one running at the survivor, stabbing them and the other throwing stuff at them.
the gameplay is essentially the same.
and i dont think i need to go into detail as to why that would be a horrendous addition, right? (in case you dont know, watch the video in my earlier message)
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Trickster: you can dodge his knives at high wall or by strafing just a bit. If he misses too often, started a chase before he reloaded or an other survivor come and take some knives, he'll have to down you at 110% with M1.
Old Legion: just run at you with 135% movement speed and hit you till you down, no counterplay whatsoever and no downside of missing a hit
Trickster have many counter play, old Legion had 0.
Trickster is weak and can't apply pressure properly & ABSOLUTELY have to tunnel a survivor until they get injure otherwise he just wasted time, heck I'd argue he have to tunnel them to dying state too.
If two survivor were nearby old Legion could apply pressure to more than hit a survivor till death.
It's almost as if one have counter play and you can actually loop and the other had 0 counter play and looping would only slow down the killer by maybe 5s at most. You have an interactive chase against Trickster and his knives, not so much with any of the Legion version.
Survivor main be like: We don't want killer you have too much interaction with(Trickster) and we don't like killer you have too little (Deathsligner ( honestly it's because you guys get baited every single time and move like if he was throwing Huntress's
18 Wheelerhatchet) but also complain about regular 115% killer because they're all the same. SMH1 -
Thanks you, there's actually someone who know how both killer work <3.
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it wouldnt be a 1:1 old legion scenario due to Trickster being slower at it than old Legion was and the laceration bar not passively dropping them.
but in the essence of the gameplay it would be the same: a killer that ends up having absolutely no counterplay in chases without having to put any effort into it whatsoever.
that concept is simply extremely unhealthy for this game, hence the Legion changes and the Executioner nerfs.
would he be a good killer? absolutely not.
with that addition he would probaply still be bottom tier and end up losing more often than not, especially due to how long downs take to achieve with his knifes and this strategy.
but this isnt about "is the killer good or not", this is about whether they are healthy for the game or not - and having such a chase cheese option is simply put not a healthy addition, thats all im saying.
for the survivor side of things he might aswell be old legion, because the survivor that is being chased at that moment has the exact same options as they had with him - hold W and get M1ed or try to use your defenses and get slowly but surely taken down by their power without being able to play around it. it just deletes any form of skilled gameplay and makes it so you can always assure to get the down with whoever you chase at that moment, no matter their skill.
the only way they could implement such an option would be by allowing survivors to pull out knifes while they are running away, at which point the entirety of this change would be redundant, due to it being so extremely similar to how it currently is / by making the power itself unable to down, which would just turn him into a much worse plague or legion.
and btw, yes i 100% agree that his power feels redundant to use on groups of people and that it sucks because you dont get rewarded for spreading the damage at all and are forced to tunnel down one single person with it - but having experienced old Legion back in the day and knowing how easily abusable OPs suggestion would be in the same way old Legions power was, this is a downside i am more than willing to take in order not to get that scenario back.
if i were to change something on him, i'd do two things:
1) make him a 4.6 m/s killer
2) make ricochet blades basekit
that way we have at least created a "personality" for this character (gameplay wise) that isnt just "Deathslinger in bad" and can then act according to the date we receive from him by buffing or nerfing certain parts of his basekit.
like i said, that wouldnt fix all his issues, but it would give us a foundation to build this killer on that is much more comfortable than where he currently is at.
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I have the perfect solution. Make it 4 knifes to injure a survivor, and 8 down a survivor. It's good because getting 4 knifes is not that hard so that way he could pressure the game. He could pressure multiple people that grouped up that way. Or simply just hit survivor with 4 knifes, so he could drops chases, and not worry about hitting 8 knifes to injure. Also make it so main event could be hold able so it can be used when needed.
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Ugh not another mending-type mechanic, please for the love of my brain cells. I personally think there should be laceration decay, but it should only start after a specified amount of time out of chase, say 20 seconds. That way it's the killer's decision how to play, do you want to stick with the survivor you've been chasing? Or drop them knowing that you'll lose your progress. I think it's absurd that it currently decays in chase, but making survivors have to pull them out, allowing him to essentially 99% the way Ghostface does? For as many projectiles as he throws and as quickly as he throws them...it seems a little much.
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It already works like this actually
Laceration:
- Laceration Meter capacity: 8 Charges
- Laceration Meter Decay rate: -0.235 c/s
- Laceration Meter Decay rate while running: -0.175 c/s
- Laceration Meter Decay delay: 20 seconds
- Laceration Charges bonus per Blade Hit: +1 Charge
- Laceration Charges penalty per Basic Attack: -4 Charges
Source wiki
As for op, just making it so laceration decay is paused while working on a gen would also provide slowdown and doesn't mean it turns into a mend fest like legion.
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Again, not nearly the same.
Old Legion was broken because he could, with a 100% guarantee, down any survivor in less than 30 seconds.
Unavoidable 2x Stab, then Moonwalk. Unless they get Adrenaline or an instaheal, they are now on the ground, and there was nothing they could have done to stop it.
Legion stabs were unavoidable. Moonwalking's only counters were incredibly niche. Trickster's knives are very avoidable.
Saying "Trickster would be have Old Legion's uncounterable lethality if survivors didn't passively recover from Knives" is wrong.
Even if I were to entertain that notion, we can already say for a fact that he wouldn't be broken, because there's already a killer who can do that who isn't even close to OP.
Huntress has the same movespeed as Tricksy, and can guarantee a health state on every animation-lock. This is the value of eight knives, about double what Tricksy can put out in the duration of an animation-lock. Her punish game is literally twice as strong, AND she has stronger threat at range, but she still isn't overpowered in the slightest.
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Honestly I think it would feel more natural for survivors to spend 8-12 seconds performing an action than spending 30 seconds faffing about waiting for a bar to go down.
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I just think it shouldn't decay at all. I think trying to put a number on decay is bad. 1.5*6 knives is 9 seconds. there is no real risk vs reward when the action takes almost no time to remove damage away from the killer. Every survivor will pull out the blades with such a low time. you need like 5 seconds per knife for survivors to actively decide whether they would pull out the knives or not which would take around 30 seconds but they'd complain about m1 mending simulator. Its just better to not give option. It should work like ghostface stalk meter. it never goes down from anything.
As GodofTerror states in his post, The laceration meter RARELY comes into play if Trickster just commits to every down. Its just that he has no split injure pressure. he has no ability to 4vs1. he just plays the game as 1vs1vs1vs1 until he wins or loses from chases. There is some play in high-wall loops but its very timing consuming.
Removing his laceration meter decay would really help his 4vs1 potential and it would give him unique strength from Huntress and Deathslinger.
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Idk, the thing with a 8-12seconds action is that it takes you out of the game completly.
Having to wait to touch gens still leaves the survivor to do chest or bones or something.
It would be a lot more liked by survivors while actually providing more slowdown
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Even if I were to entertain that notion, we can already say for a fact that he wouldn't be broken, because there's already a killer who can do that who isn't even close to OP.
its not about being strong or not, its about being healthy for the game. and chase cheese mechanics like that are simply not healthy, thats why Legion got reworked in the first place (and old Legion was far from being OP) or why the Executioner was nerfed.
and your entire comparison with Huntress is honestly just wrong. her windup time allows the survivor to make a move based on the info they get (audio cue). if i hear a Huntress ready up a hatchet behind me im absolutely not going to enter an animation that makes me an easy target. on the other hand, if i start the animation before she starts winding up her hatchet ill be able to freely controll my character again before she can shoot.
Trickster would just instantly spam knifes at you. he has no windup that would allow me to make a read based on it.
and unlike Deathslinger, who needs to reel in to be lethal, Trickster can do this exact same thing freely until you are down.
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I love this idea. I would actually like to see them make it require a teammate to pull the knives out. This would force survivors to group up (where Trickster is at his strongest) and give Trickster some much needed slowdown in his kit.
As it stands, there is nothing Trickster does that the other ranged killers can't do better. He just can't get downs fast enough but is shoehorned into being a 1v1 killer by the laceration decay.
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