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Why legion had so many changes in the past?
just wondering. And how would you change him?
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Because he was extremely broken when he first released and it took the devs a long time to fix him. As for how I would change him, I literally have no idea.
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Because his first release was the epitome of unfun game design that I hope and pray never, ever returns. He was literally uncountable in a 1v1. There was absolutely nothing you could do.
In terms of what I'd do to rework him, it's somewhere in my previous discussions and I made it with my friend, mid commenting this on my phone so I can't go find it rn
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It was because his power was and still is fundamentally flawed
He needs a Freddy style rework (Except it’s actually good unlike his)
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Please change "He was literally uncountable in a 1v1" in "He was literally uncountable in a 1v1 if he uses the exploits and/specific addons" and we are by the truth.
It is a small difference that matters.
Your lovly Legion main from next door,
Talmeer
:D
It was also a long time accepted as this until many old players left the game, because the hope to see a fun version from the Legion again had gone down, the more time had pass.
99% of the playerbase today do not really know anymore about what they talk, if we come to this topic. Sadly. The only ones who are left from the past are mostly the haters. Not the people who loved the Legion so much, that they raised the Legion tags higher as the dev's faq video session tags - to a time where this forum had tags on the right side of the screen.
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No, because even without moonwalking, Stab Wounds Study or Frank's Mixtape or any other add on combination he was uncoubterable in a 1v1. Unless the Legion player wasn't aware that they had eyeballs there was nothing you could do.
Your lovely person who played legion a lot on their release and faced just as many,
GoodBoyKaru.
PS. I know exactly what I'm talking about, so does my bf who agrees with me and he's literally a legion main. So do my friends who were around at the time, one of whom is an ex-legion main but has recently moved onto Huntress.
Old Legion should not and most likely will not ever come back for the overall health of the game. If you think that Old Legion was anywhere near healthy or counterable in a 1v1, you are objectively wrong.
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Old Legion could was a killer that would down you with 100% certainty but it would take forever. They also could cheese the deepwound mechanic cause it worked differently back then.
I wouldn't change anything outside of QoL changes and some buffs.
They are really not that bad
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It was. Besides personal experience, there were even video evidence.
The Legion without addons was not more or less stronger as any other killer to that time (if you have know the counterplay), besides obvious worse killers like the Clown and obvious better killers like the Nurse.
With that I don't want to say that the Legion was weak, but she was also not unconquerable.
She was strong with a few weak spots and that was why the addons were so powerful, because they had taken out the weakness of the Legion.
Also what I am saying was and is covered by the killstats of that time. If you search them, you will see that the Legion was in the lower midfield, no matter which rank and that was for reasons.
Edit: And what you saying of a comeback - Most likely yes. The devs seem to prefer a smaller player crowd over a potential bigger player crowd. You can say what you want, but killer that stab fast have their own audience and dbd cant serve anything to this audience, besides T3 Myers and I bet that Myers will sooner or later get his rework too. Not because of his strength, but just because he had never a real rework far as I remember.
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Why did you mention Frank's Mixtape? I am going to have nightmares tonight...
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Nobody is talking about Legion being too strong. He was unfun in a 1v1-aspect, you WILL down a Survivor with Frenzy, no matter what, without anything the Survivor can do, even without moonwalking and even without Add-Ons.
You lose the game while doing so, which made Legion weak (he was never strong to begin with), but they are guaranteed to down the Survivor they are chasing.
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Well, if you say it so, you are right.
The same can you also say about every other killer btw. If I play now a match with the Trapper as example and focus only on one player - this player will die.
No matter what he does, no matter which perks, or experience he has. Of course, gens will pop to my left and right, like hell, but he would be down.
That is something every killer can do in dbd, besides maybe Nurses who not teleport.
Edit: And it is not fair in my opinion to say always something like that, if every other killer can do it also.
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Please read what I've said very, very slowly for me. Uncountable in the 1v1. There was nothing you could do in the 1v1. Unless the Legion player was literally quadriplegic or lacked eyeballs you were going to die with no input on your side matteting at all.
In the 4v1 no, they were incredibly weak. But in the the 1v1 they were impossible to counter and if you think otherwise you are objectively wrong.
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What were their counters then? What was a reliable way to win a chase against old legion? And "losing them" is not a reliable one
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We thinking basically the same, but you forget about it 2 things and there are you either not experienced enough (what I not believe), or you are not honest enough:
-If a killer (every killer!) focus on just one survivor, this survivor will die, most likely. With that - the Legion is nothing special anymore. Not without reason complain so many survivors about tunneling.
-The frenzy time back in the day was shorter as it is today. If you have really tunnel 1 survivor, you have most likely got him down, but only after a long chase.* In this time, any Trapper, Hillbilly, Nurse, Spirit and many over killers would have had this survivor already down, a long time ago (in a tunneling situation).
So if you say something like that above it would just be honest if you either say it not, or "like every other killer, he has no counters in a 1n1".
*Edit: If the survivor had skill.
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Very unfun in most situations, and with specific addons it made survivors feel helpless.
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Basically a mix of the same counters you do today against them and some things that have gone obsolete today.
-Spread out, as soon as you aware that the killer is a Legion.
-Learn m1 mindgames, since Legion can also attack on this way, if he likes.
-If he is in frenzy don't use windows, because he will most likely always get you there.
-Use instead pallets. If the Legion starts frenzy, jump over the pallet and do directly turn 180 and jump again over that pallet and do that over and over again. If you do that right, the Legion will either lost you, or chase you until its frenzy ends - without the chance to hit you. After that the Legion is again a traditional m1 killer.*
That was the most common counterplay and it had also work. Many things of the past work even today against the Legion, like spreading out, or knowing m1 mindgames.
*If the Legion used Franks Mixtape, it was nearly impossible to do that, because the most survivors had do a mistake in the time this addon had run, but it was not without reasons op. Without Franks Mixtape, it was possible.
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No, actually. He's not at all like every other killer.
If any other killer is tunneling someone, the team can take hits. Can't do that vs Old Legion. The team can distract with scratches. Can't do that vs Old Legion because they tracked through blood. The survivor themselves can pallet loop for distance. Doesn't matter, Legion just vaults the pallet. Windows? Also doesn't matter. Ran out their power? They could use it at any point so good luck there. Making them miss? Doesn't matter they have no cooldown. Hiding? Again they see blood.
It's not similar to any other killers in terms of the sheer strength of the 1v1. No survivor input mattered, at all.
So no, we're not saying the same thing. Not even the same language.
And in terms of every other killer getting them down quicker it doesn't matter because even vs a stridor spirit some small insignificant part of your actions matter in surviving. There's nothing like that vs Old Legion. Absolutely nothing.
Weak in the 1v4, oppressive in the 1v1. Old Legion is gone and should remain gone and pretend they were anything close to good, healthy, or not uncountable is nothing but fooling yourself
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Old Legion was somehow incredibly brokenly OP and stupidly weak at the same time.
Now, he's just the latter.
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They could use to any time their power, that is right, but even in this days, the power needed to recharge and if you had only 10% of your power, you could also only use 10% of your power.
So don't paint here a picture, as he was able to use 100% and I said above that windows were useless.
Every killer in dbd has a special abilitie. Imo, it is not too much if we expect that survivors are able to learn the differences and some of them learn to handle them.
In my eyes, we have similar thoughts, but you exaggerate, after my personal experience and of many other people that have sadly left dbd in the time between the rework and now and you can also nothing say about "for the health of the game", since you can't know what every player is thinking, or even every potential customer, that plays with the thought to buy dbd.
The only thing we can say for certain is, that after the rework many people had left dbd (like the stats had shown to that time) and that there was a hugh interest to either undone the rework, or parts of it - how the tags in the old forums have shown and of course, dbd attracts to this day less players, because they have nothing to offer, to fans of fast stabbing killers.
How many people would have left dbd, if the rework would had never happened, we can't know, since the rework has happen and so we have no data we can compare.
That are the facts. Without exaggerating.
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"They could use to any time their power, that is right, but even in this days, the power needed to recharge and if you had only 10% of your power, you could also only use 10% of your power."
And it recharged quick enough to have an easy usage of 25-30% every couple of seconds, which was all that was needed for a free hit over a pallet.
"Every killer in dbd has a special abilitie. Imo, it is not too much if we expect that survivors are able to learn the differences and some of them learn to handle them."
But you are missing the point here by about a continent. I don't know how I can make this clearer so I've written it all in bright pink this time.
Please let me know if you'd prefer it in German. Any other language I'm afraid I can't do.
" In my eyes, we have similar thoughts, but you exaggerate"
Then please go to the opticians because we are disagreeing over anything. We do not have similar thoughts in the slightest.
And no, I'm not exaggerating. See the above pink message.
"you can also nothing say about "for the health of the game", since you can't know what every player is thinking, or even every potential customer, that plays with the thought to buy dbd. "
Correct, I can't. I can, however, comment on design philophies that are and aren't healthy for DBD. Old Legion falls into the unhealthy category. Alongside old old old old DS to old old DS, Mettle of Man, Spirit, release Nurse, Midwich, Saloon, Gideon, etc. None of these are/were particularly healthy for the game.
A killer with no counterplay in the 1v1 is not healthy for a game focused around interaction in the 1v1. If you'd like this in pink too let me know.
"How many people would have left dbd, if the rework would had never happened, we can't know, since the rework has happen and so we have no data we can compare."
No, but we can go through what many people at the time said, which was "If they don't change this, I will quit". Why? Take a guess, here's your three choices:
1) It was healthy game design
2) It had plenty of counterplay
3) It was unhealthy, unfun to face, and had no counterplay in the 1v1.
Let's take a look at the results...
THAT'S RIGHT! If you said answer number 3 you are tonight's biggest winner!
"That are the facts. Without exaggerating."
Please see my previous comments. I have not exaggerated any facts during this entire discussion, despite what your love for old Legion tells you.
Curb your bias. Even stridor spirit mains agree Old Legion was too far.
Edit: oh also dbd around November-March 2018-2019 was buggy as #########, that's probably why a lot of people left. That and old Legion mains who were salty they'd have to play a killer that requires a smidge of effort to down someone
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"Spread out"
This doesnt mean anything if youre already in chase
"Learn M1 Mindgames"
Not a reliable way of countering him since youre relying on luck
"If he's in Frenzy dont use windows"
Even if hes not he has and had no start up time to his ability so he could just immediately enter Frenzy and get a hit that way, same goes for pallets if he threw it down
"Do a 180 after The Legion vaults the pallet"
This isnt counterplay, thats again relying on luck that The Legion is stupid enough to fall for this, and experienced players would always check for these to make sure a survivor didnt do it, you could also just swing at the survivor vaulting the pallet and if you missed? Well your frenzy didnt end so just vault back the pallet
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I stay by my point, but I try more to focus on the bigger picture, as just on one point and I don't hate anything in dbd so much that it could blind my view on how the things are.
Also, the people say always they are leaving. To everything... And they don't... Usually. This is not an argument until it really happens, because of this very reason imo.
Besides you shouldn't insult a group of people, just because you dislike what they have loved to play.
A game should offer fun for every type of player. Dbd has nothing to offer anymore for the people who have left. Also DBD had and will always have bugs. That was in the past so and it will also be so in the future, I bet. That is just the nature of nearly every game, especially life service and multiplayer games, since they always getting updated, including bugs.
With other words, if bugs are a reason to leave the game for dbd players, dbd should constantly lose players because of bugs, but that doesn't show the data.
I hald also play to that time Myers, Trapper and the Clown and in my opinion they were not harder to play as the Legion without addons. They had other strengths, yes and other weaknesses, but I had lost or win matches with them on the same amount as with the Legion without addons (with addons, Legion was too easy play for me).
The only thing I am willing admit is, that the Nurse is and was really harder to play as the Legion in the past and also today (or I was just bad with the Nurse - that would also be true, I bet).
The point you don't get is, if you would have been for me to that time as survivor and I would have decided to tunnel you, you would have been dead. No matter if I would have play Legion, or Myers, or Trapper, or Clown and I was not even a good killer imo.
If a killer decides to make things personal, there is nothing a survivor can do, if the killer has at least a bit experience and what does it matter how you die, if you die anyways?
This is just raging for the point of raging about something. Not adressing the problem.
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You have seen the pallet counterplay as luck based?
Oh boy, then you had never saw it made by people who were experienced in it.
If I take you by your word it is also rng if you run in a trap of the Trapper, or Hag, or if you getting hit by the Huntress, or if Myers getting up to T2 and T3 and so on.
Sure, you can counterplay all this, with the help of a little bit of luck, but let us be honest... If you do it with the knoweldge of what you are doing against those killers, it is more effective and it isn't luck anymore, hm? ;).
And yes I know, that it is easier to disarm or avoid a trap of the Trapper, or to avoid, or destroy a trap of the Hag, as the pallet-counterplay was against the old Legion, but how gamers tend to say: "Skill is when luck becomes a habit."
There were survivors out there that have known how to do this, exactly like survivors are today out there that know how to disarm traps, how to letting Myers not becoming T3 and so on.
There is no shame in it, if you aren't able to do it, but to say it isn't possible, is a lie.
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I really hope you just didn't play around the time of Old Legion, because it's pretty obvious to anyone who played around the time of Old Legion that there was no counterplay to him.
Legion had no reason to mindgame. FF can vault pallets and windows making both resources do absolutely nothing to stop a Legion. You can't hide either if you ever did lose LoS to legion, because FF legion can still see blood and it wasn't uncommon for Legions to bring Bloodhound either. You could technically stun Legion out of his power, but every Legion respected pallets because there was no reason not to.
Legion would still lose the game and everyone would escape, but the games were boring. One person gets chased by legion for most of the match, because it takes Legion too long to down someone as everyone else does gens. There's no interaction going on.
I also really hate to call matches in dbd boring, but Old Legion just didn't offer anything to play around. Even Spirit currently provides more counterplay options than Old Legion. Regardless of how little options exist to play against Spirit, there is at least some form of interaction between the survivors and killer.
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Honestly I would give them an entire rework. Make them more interactive and interesting, and rework Feral Frenzy as well.
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I stay to what I have written in this thread.
My playstyle of the pre-rework Legion was not so much different to the Legion of today.
I loved the Legion and bought because of the Legion this game and of course the dlc, but I feeled too strong as a killer in this game after a few matches with the Legion to this time.
So I had made my own rules and found my own playstyle and this was basically how the people today play the Legion, just without addons, a shorter frenzy and the abilitie to stab people in a chase multiple times, because that was what had make fun for me.
So I have avoid the exploits, the op addons, unfair gameplay and also do m1 mindgames a lot. Just I had also a bit of fun, because of the stabbing, mentioned above.
With this playstyle I had reach the red ranks until I was fed up with sweatness up there and de-rank on purpose and always hang then in the green, or purple ranks.
After the rework, or "today" I am mostly to find at rank 20, because I usually do just a testgame with the Legion from time to time to look if bhvr has bring the fun finally back for people like me.
Needless to say, they don't (at least until now) and so I stop playing then again until a few more patches have passed for dbd.
The survivors I let usually go in these testgames, if they not dc, or suicide on a hook before I can let them go.
Edit: That is my honest answer to it. You can laugh about me, if you like, or still hate me for being a "pre rework Legion main", but that is and was me.
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I see it as "lucked" based in the sense you were lucky enough for The Legion to actually fall for it, just like how you were lucky that Deathslinger missed a shot or a bad Nurse made a bad blink, are those counterplays to those killers? Relying that they're bad? No it isnt
Also don't even get me started on the experience I have on Legion, he was the first killer I attempted to get the fastest P3 on, the 3rd killer I got all perks on, I was one of the first people to get the "Deranged Pursuit" achievement which was MUCH harder than it is now (Look it up if you need a refresh on how you needed to get it before) and if you want proof:
Deranged Pursuit achievement achieved at a time before they updated it:
Screenshot of P3 Legion during Winter Solstice
I have the experience on Legion, and even nowadays if you want a reminder of how old Legion was just for the shits and giggles, run Franks Mixtape and Etched Ruler and just go after one survivor, no matter how good they are that survivor is going down, just like old Legion :)
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Survivors going down in an 1n1 against the most killers anyways. Could have shown you the same with the Clown, back in day.
Congrats to the achievment. Personally I was never interested in making any kind of achievment, but I know you have probably done a lot of tries, to get it. I was more like a moke who was happy to run after the carrot for his head, aka. the survivor and that was already everything.
Then we had make different experiences. I had a handful of times people for me who could do the pallet counterplay as would they predict, what I would do next.
They did the pallet jumps when I did. They runned away when I stopped pallet jumping and just waited for them and so on. Just be happy that you had never face them. It was terrible. Especially without addons.
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Because his power was not very well thought out and probably wasn't tested much.
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Again, I face them all the time, I'll play Legion and record to show you exactly what you can do, survivors tend to attempt the trick with windows as well
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