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Dead by Design: An Essay On Counterplay And The 'Spirit' Problem (3600+ words)

MongolPSR
MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032
edited June 2021 in General Discussions

(this is a repurposed video script that I wanted to share. This is an in-depth essay on counterplay and the spirit issue in Dead by daylight. I expect no traffic but wanted to publish at least this in case I end up not having time to make a legitimate full fledged high quality video. This essay is 6 pages long at over 3600 words. I'm going on vacation soon and the process of doing everything I want just can't be done in time with all of the other real world things I have going on as an adult. So here it is to at least have the discussion. if you read this whole thing thank you, you're pretty freaking awesome. Im sorry for any awkwardness or grammar issues. I literally just wrote this in a few hours.) 

*tap tap tap*

OK

Counterplay

This word gets thrown around a lot, and I mean a lot by the Dead By Daylight community, and for the most part, people don't fully understand what counter play is. By the most basic definition counterplay is simply the ability to react and then act upon what your opponent is doing in a way that is favorable for you. If you're playing Streetfighter and your opponent just won't stop block spamming, throw him. That's the counterplay in a very basic scenario. BUTT *heh butt* That's not all there is to it. 

The game design of Dead By Daylight is often messy, a game that while has not changed on the surface has gone through a metamorphosis through the years with different philosophies behind killer design, killer survivor interaction, tile interaction, map creation, perk creation, and yes the counterplay between survivor and killer. Seriously just look at where we've come from. NOED used to be a hexless perk, to having a timer on it, to being a hex perk. Survivors used to be able to fast vault from any angle, have the ability to run multiple exhaustion perks at the same time, and DS used to just be able to be used with no conditions. 

So the game is pretty different now and with that difference you can see how BHVR approaches design now versus how they use it too. Killers are way more complex with a lot of little things added to their kits to finely tune them to the game. Which finally brings me to counterplay in dbd, 

When talking about counterplay in dbd you have to look at it in its three basic forms which themselves are just mutations of typical counterplay in competitive shooters and fighting games. Is DBD a competitive game? Meh *yes* but it does have these levels of how to interact with the opposing party that allows for this game to be interesting and not stale. In DBD there is what most people seem to talk about in mechanical counterplay. However there is also preemptive counterplay, and conditioning counterplay. Typically people don't talk about counterplay in this way. Other terms that are used could be counter picking, set-up, mindgaming, conditioning, and playing the long game. All of these are just ways to describe the concept of counterplay in its three main forms. To show this lets go over a few mechanics and yes killers. I did promise after all that I'd talk about spirit. 

Let's start with traditional counterplay as known by the dbd community. 

MECHANICAL COUNTERPLAY 

In Dead By Daylight every killer's power has some form of mechanical counterplay, now the level to which they do is to be debated. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Spirit has the same amount of mechanical in game counterplay as Trapper. Because she doesn't. With Trapper his power is binary, you either step in the trap, or you don't. That's it, that's the counterplay. Survivors have full agency over themselves as to whether they step in the trap. It can be classified as a survivor mistake if they get trapped. Now that is not to say that a good Trapper can't place his traps in key locations and encourage the survivor into those areas, but that's not the effect of his power, that's the effect of him. All killers are like this, except one. Now this is where the community gets real excited and says I told you so. Spirit op BHVR plz nerf. However I will kindly ask you to wait.

So yes In the three pillars of counterplay Spirit fails this one. There are minimal things you can do when a spirit goes into a faze. Since the Spirit can no longer see survivors it becomes imperative to be very chaotic and sneaky with your movement. Using a combination of walking and sprinting at crossroads is a good way to lose a Spirit who's in phase. One problem, this only works while a survivor is healthy. The moment they are injured any sort of counterplay using the sound you create goes out the window due to the injured sounds just vomiting out of your survivors weak fragile body. This is where Spirit is different from the rest of the pack. Even Deathslinger has more mechanical counterplay than her because your ability to dodge and break line of sight, and put structures between you and him is not affected by you getting injured. The Spirit's power completely changes once the survivor is hit. This is where BHVR failed with her. Mechanically there is nothing a survivor can do once they've been injured. However, there are two more versions of counterplay to go over. 

PREEMPTIVE COUNTERPLAY

DBD is a weird game on this one, as the most traditional sense of preemptive counterplay is what's known as ‘counter picking’. You're bringing a Yamoja? Well, I'm bringing Cerberus. This does not exist in Dead By Daylight except for killer and only it is the weakest form possible. In pre game lobbies the killer can see which survivors there are and what items a survivor is bringing. That's it, neither side gets to know what perk loadout they have or what offerings they are bringing till they're already played. Hell unless there's an offering played we don't even know what map we will be on. So rng can really screw a Huntress and a Deathslinger if they get stuck on an indoor or corn map. But there are a lot of other types of preemptive counterplay in DBD. While not reliable as mentioned before survivors do not know what killer they are facing, there are straight up perks that completely counter certain killers. Iron Will and Spine Chill for example completely decimate a Spirit if they aren't themselves using Stridor, which many Spirit players argue is a wasted perk slot on her, while others swear by it. 

However, let's talk about counterplay. That's something you can do every time. Spirit like a lot of other killers is significantly hurt by pre dropping pallets before you need to avoid a hit. The Spirit can try to mind game that loop with her power. which is her strong suit if the survivors are injured and hacking up a lung. However the situation turns into the survivors favor if they aren't injured. If the survivor is making minimal sound they can play the loop. The things the survivor has to account for is whether or not they know the Spirit is in phase, and what is considered the right play for that loop. Sometimes the best solution is to completely leave the loop. Other forms of preemptive play include putting yourself in complex or strong structures. The more reads the Spirit has to make the harder it is for her to get her first hit on you. Complex structures include houses on haddonfield, most main building structures in all maps, all jungle gym variants, cow loop, cornfields, all indoor maps. Every single one of these has places that make the amount of options for pathing that a survivor can take hard for a spirit to play on. It doesn't matter if the Spirit can hear the survivors breathing sound if the tile is in such a way that the survivor could be right next to her or behind a wall. She now has to guess. 

Let's look at this example here. Take the typical car dumpster loop in the Bedlam maps. The survivor is standing here at the pallet with it down. If I go into or am in phase the survivor has a few moves they can make. One they can slowly crawl over the pallet. Two they can go clockwise around the loop. Three They can go counter clockwise around the loop. Finally, four they can leave the loop entirely. One loop, four options and choices the survivor has to make. This is where the final counterplay type comes into play.

CONDITIONING COUNTERPLAY

Before we can talk about games we have to talk about psychology and specifically about the ideas brought forth by famous psychologists Pavlov, Thorndike, Skinner, and Bandura, and all of their research and experiments.

In psychology there are three different types of conditioning. Classical conditioning which Pavlov pioneered. Operant conditioning which was made famous by Skinner and theorized by Thorndike, and lastly observational conditioning which was made famous by Bandura. 

Pavlov famously did an experiment where he saw if he could make animals physically react to stimuli the same way they would to other stimuli. The experiment would measure the amount of saliva dogs produced when presented with food. Before the food was given pavlov would ring a bell as a way to make the dog associate the bell with food. After enough time passed with the experiments the dogs would salivate just as much when the bell would ring without food as they would with food. They were conditioned to recognise the bell as the source of food. It was food time. This is the most basic style of conditioning and many fellow psychologists panned it because of how simple the experiment truly was. The idea was that it was not something we could really apply to human psychology. 

Thorndike through study eventually came to the conclusion that "responses that produce a satisfying effect in a particular situation become more likely to occur again in that situation, and responses that produce a discomforting effect become less likely to occur again in that situation (Gray, 2011, p. 108–109)." This was known as the Law of Effect. This idea was the basis for psychologist Skinner to start developing the theory of Operant conditioning. Skinner would develop an experiment where he placed rats in a small cage, the only thing in the cage was a lever that would dispense food when pulled down, and a metal floor that would send electrical shocks through the floor. The experiment would prove that through operant conditioning you could teach the rat and subsequently any animal or even human to perform an action when paired with a reward for doing so or a punishment for failing to do so. A human example of this is how you get sent to the principal's office if you're tardy too many times to class as a child. You're being punished for not performing the correct behavior. This in turn makes us predisposed to want to be to class on time. Just as the rat is predisposed to pressing down the lever to avoid getting shocked. 

The final type of conditioning was observational conditioning. Bandura conducted an experiment where at its base core young children would watch adults play with a toy called a ‘bobo doll’. Some children would observe a gentle and calm adult who would be nice to the doll and some would watch an adult be aggressive to the doll, attacking it with punches and kicks, some adults even used a hammer to strike the doll. After observing this the children would then be allowed to play with the same doll. The results from the experiment showed that children who watched the aggressive adult would in turn be aggressive. The children who watched the nice adult would also be nice. This is a super simplification with this very in depth experiment with several groups of children, adults, matching with different aged children, gender, and race. This is just the simplest way to get across what constitutes decades of science and research for the behavioral branch of psychology with all three of these experiments. 

Now. How does this apply to games? How does this apply to Dead By Daylight? While classical conditioning is not important for this discussion, Operant and Observational conditioning is. Operant being the most while Observational being paired with why and how the community forms similar opinions around the same time as one another. This is where we move into video games.

Fighting games are some of the most competitive games out there. An entire genre based around 1v1 fights where you must defeat your opponent. What's funny is that DBD lifts a lot from fighting games, and even the community talks about DBD in very similar ways that fighting game fans talk about their games. We straight up ripped tier lists from the fighting game community. DBD is a 1v4 game yet we mostly subscribe to the power of a killer with their 1v1 potential. Does that killer do good in chase? No , then they are usually low tier. A lot of killers are labeled with what feels like an insult at this point as ‘typical m1 killer’. This is why characters like Wraith have been mocked by the community because their powers aren't chase oriented powers.

Anyway, in the fighting game community there is this big part of the high level play called conditioning. The basis of this is that you train your opponent to take certain actions for either fear of a punishment or hope for a reward. Remember Skinner? Let's translate this into dbd. Let's look at wraith. He's the best boi. My favorite build for Wraith after the buff is this pallet destroying build. It changes wraiths power to a chase oriented power. The basic idea is that I want players to pre-throw pallets. I want that pallet down. The moment it is, I just need them to stay near it and they've already lost that health state that they have. So I get down after down. Punishing them for throwing the pallet. The next time I meet them they are going to be hesitant to throw down the pallet. Like if the rat was instead shocked for pulling the lever instead of shocked for not pulling it. They want me out of cloak so that the pallet throw is now safe for them to do, so that it becomes a reward. So now I have to mindgame them. Am I really going to uncloak? Or am I faking? This is where conditioning sets in. If I as wraith don't get them down in one read they then have a better idea of what I am trying to do. If I uncloak I run the risk of them throwing down the pallet, it is not good for me to uncloak. So I fake the uncloak because that's the stronger play for me. If they throw the pallet down I win, but if they don't then I have to either anticipate that they won't throw the pallet down and risk a lunge attack without getting pallet stunned or reset the chase as they can now loop normally or even straight up leave the loop while I figure out what the best course of action is. 

The counterplay is that all while I'm conditioning them to act a certain way they are inadvertently conditioning me to do the same. We are both rats in cages, my actions if I succeed shock them, and theirs if they succeed shock me. If I do the same trick of faking the uncloak a second time I am now expecting for them to fall for it again because that's what they did last time. This kind of expectation is in every single loop in the game. No matter what killer is playing. After seeing the survivor do something once at a loop they expect them to play it the same way until proven wrong.  This is a little bit of observational conditioning bleeding through into the actual gameplay. So how does this apply to Spirit. Because what's the point of this entire script if I don't answer how spirit has counterplay? 

*Deep breath* ok

Spirits counterplay lies in conditioning. You can't rely too heavily on preemptive counterplay as the player is not given any information before the match even starts. Mechanically, spirit only has counterplay till you have been injured, after you're injured it's all over unless you got lucky and have some preemptive counter perks. This is why so many people feel like she has no mechanics and its due to the idea that if they can't mechanically counter her they can't counter her. They're right to a point, but you're not playing against spirit, you're playing against the player controlling spirit. Thats where the counterplay is. You have to use your mechanical play to condition the spirit into making wrong reads. This isnt a guessing game, this is proven science that you can condition people into reacting in ways you want. In fighting games people often straight up lose the first round in the fight, then they adapt and use the information they gathered during that first fight to come up with ways to then dominate two rounds in a row for the win on that set. This is counterplay at its highest level. Where the skill gap is no longer in the mechanical skill or game knowledge of the game but instead in who can better figure out the other. If you look at pro streamers in the fighting world every single one of them have the mechanics of the game down to frame by frame. What separates them from high level players is that they can outthink their opponent and are better at adapting on the fly. The two players countering each other back and forth till one wins and one loses. This applies to chase in dbd. There's a reason why even semi competent rank 1 survivors can loop a rank 20 brand new player infinitely, they don't have to mind game, they just have to be better mechanically and use their game knowledge to abuse loops that the new player doesn't know how to play. It's when you get a bit higher where the knowledge and mechanical skill are similar where spirit becomes a beast, because you now don't have to play against the game, but against the player. You have to play mental chess with the other player and it's not based on guessing but understanding how your opponent acts and then using that as a basis for your own actions. You are only guessing in the first chase, you have to feel out your opponent, see how they play. As long as you're able to at least observe them for a little bit in an actual loop before going down you can start building a player profile for this particular player. This is amplified if on comms in a swf. The more time you and your group are allowed to see the habits of the player over the match you can know how to play against them in chase. This is a skill you have to practice. You're not going to click away from here and instantly be able to do what I'm talking about. Just like how players practice their looping paths, and players practice their nurse teleports, or huntress throws. You have to practice your mind gaming and conditioning. This is how you pull nasty habits out of your play and become more and more skilled and efficient at the game. This is how you learn to counter the spirit PLAYER.

Now I mentioned observational conditioning and how it was super important. While not important to the actual gameplay side I think this is important to the community side. The community in large part doesn't all participate on the forums or watch all the streamers but they do talk to other players, and those players talk with other players. Like a plague we all talk to and influence each other in small ways. Unfortunately this means players with a wider reach like streamers can have the most influence over the base and their thoughts and opinions on things besides the devs themselves. This leads to players finding authority in players who maybe don't know what they're talking about, or are tackling the subject in the wrong way with the bluntness of a sledgehammer. Maybe these players bully their point and opinion home by confusing their point with the wrong type of evidence. In the case of Spirit, too many of our big faces in the community confuse mechanical counterplay as the only counterplay. That pulling people into 1v1 lobbies to do only a few chases against players with less mechanical skill is the wrong way to go about showing and proving points.  

With this in mind I would want and wish for the dead by daylight die-hards to start looking at the game more critically. Think about the design intent, and then the design execution. When looking at the counterplay of the killer to look at what mechanical, preemptive, and yes conditioning that killer needs to be beaten. The spirit and deathslinger issues that are pushed by the community is an example of not understanding how to learn and get better at the highest level of play.  The community has been accused of having an issue of what aboutism. I think we have an issue of not correlating facing high tier killers with needing high tier gameplay to face. Why do we make all these tier lists where we place spirit, and nurse as S tier killers and not expect us to have to play at that high of a level in return when we face them? 

ok thats an essay... partially edited.

Post edited by MongolPSR on
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Comments

  • Bonquiqui414
    Bonquiqui414 Member Posts: 222

    It is never that serious...

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    Thanks. im still running through it to edit it and make it properly formatted APA style. By tomorrow it should be a much cleaner read. I'm glad you enjoyed the piece.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    exactly. I tried to make this as applicable to the spirit situation as possible. the mechanical skill gap the first thing that effects gameplay. thats why its so prevalent and observable when a high skilled player faces a new one.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    cheers for reading it. Im 100% ok with agreeing to disagree.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    sorry should have included this into the first reply. My answer to you would be that while all killer players are different in small ways. there are general rule of thumbs for how certain killers play. you know? By practicing against a large enough sample size of the same killer but different players you can start to learn the different types of players for that killer. Its also hard. I never claim its easy because its not. DBD is not forgiving at the highest level of play. Survivors get 3 chases to figure out the killer. thats why you got to view the first chase as just stalling and information gathering to try and figure them out by the 3rd chase. its hard but that doesnt discount that its still there.

  • th3
    th3 Member Posts: 1,882

    Mechanical counterplay to spirit is to waste every pallet.

    Psychological counterplay to spirit is to not get hit by wasting every pallet.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032
    edited June 2021

    OMG that's the tldr! Thank you! You get a thumbs up

    Edit: lol but no that's super simplifying the entire essay and the general psychology of operant conditioning.

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 10,465
    edited June 2021

    I think where you get it wrong is the mental chess is very one sided. The key to counterplay against a standing Spirit is whether or not she is phasing.

    Yes Spirit has counters when she is phasing. But it is knowing when she is in phase is where it breaks down.

    While a survivor does mental gymnastics trying to determine what the killer is doing, the killer only needs to stand still observing the survivor's reaction and respond accordingly.

    That is too one sided and based on a gamble than any actual feedback provided by game mechanics or the player themselves.

    This is where Conditioning Counterplay falls apart. If every choice you make is wrong how do you make your way to the correct answer? Even if you happen to guess correctly in one instance will that carry over to the next interaction or fail? Did you really make the correct choice or were you on the winning side of a coin flip? When every action taken results in being hit your only choice becomes to not move at all.


    Every killer gives some form of feedback for the survivors to observe and react to. This is your mechanical counterplay. How the killer moves to when they use or fake use their power. Spirit has none of this. For awhile you didn't even know she was vaulting a window.

    The Devs clearly designed her to lack information. Both for her and the survivor. The issue was how players ended up play her. The information war then became too one side where one side could gather the nessisary information before acting while the other side stays in the dark.

    Where is the information that the Spirit is phasing? That's the major issue players have. It's entirely up to the survivor to make that determination and soley on gut feeling.

  • TruEternity
    TruEternity Member Posts: 320

    “The spirit and deathslinger issues that are pushed by the community is an example of not understanding how to learn and get better at the highest level of play.”


    This, right here, invalidates all points made before the statement. Yes, the majority of the community will just parrot what they hear as fact, with out understanding how the game works. This does not mean those killers aren’t a problem, because the strategy is one that no killer except Nurse can counter, and that is prethrowing every pallet.


    Let me use an example, I used to play a MOBA called Smite, and back in 2015 a character came out named Bellona. She was by far the most broken, easy to use auto win character released up to that point. A lot of people tried to just say to team up, CC and burst her down as counterplay. Problem was, that was EVERY single characters counter play and she’d eat so many cool downs you’d lose the team fights, then the game, but yes you did kill her. What does this have to do with Spirit? If you predrop every pallet, your team WILL lose, guaranteed, unless you’re in a comp group who’s splitting up and slamming gens. She’ll chew through pallets and your team will have no resources left. The only way that works is if you have three teammates who split up and stick to a gen.


    So here’s the point, high level dbd isn’t some sophisticated thing, it’s actually quite simple. The problem is the strategies used at high levels require the entire team be on the same page, and to play a certain way. This isn’t how dbd works, and it should not be balanced around that fact. The game would suffer incredibly if it did, and quite possibly die out.


    Really, all this boils down to one thing, do you balance the game for the .1% that are comp players, or the 99.9% that is casual. To me, the choice seems obvious.

  • _NIGHTMARE_
    _NIGHTMARE_ Member Posts: 727

    Definitely going to give this a full read. I'll review my comment when I've finished the read.

    :) Thanks for posting!

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    So I agree with you in many ways here. I disagree that my statements become invalid through a single statement in a 3600 word essay. I also would like to point out that I never directly say that spirit should never get changed. I infer that I find it odd we place these killers on a pedestal as S tier but then whine that we in turn have to play at a S tier level. Do I think that spirit should get changed at some point? Probably, but thats not to say that by then we will most likley have another killer that brings the same issue. As to where we should spend time balancing the game and who to balance for. It's true that if you spend to much time thinking about only the top players you will alienate lower skilled or new players. However if you only balance for the lower skilled that creates problems for them as they get better. the balance becomes lopsided when they become 'good'.

    anyways thank you for the read

    (fun fact im a smite player too. Bellona got rebroken at the start of season 8 as did most warriors. the starter items gave way to much utility and survivability to the warrior class.)

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    The mental chess I would agree is like survivor having a few pieces missing. theirs a power gap there. I would argue that the power gap there is due to the game being a 1v4. if 1 survivor could match a killer at the highest level of play turn for turn it would literally make killer impossible. I would definetly agree that I feel like Spirit should come with an audio sound to know when shes phasing, and when shes in the phase. though I would argue that the sound should be linked to her terror radius and not global.

  • _NIGHTMARE_
    _NIGHTMARE_ Member Posts: 727

    Edit: I've read it. Nice essay! Love the psychology references in there :)

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    They're good books and it's psychology not philosophy. Psychology is applicable to life in all things. It's literally the study of the mind and how people think.

  • TruEternity
    TruEternity Member Posts: 320

    Saying it invalidated everything is quite hyperbolic I’ll agree, and I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head on most points. The problem is exactly what you said, who do we balance for. For most games I would argue the highest levels, as the trickle down effect is minimal at low levels. DBD is just in a strange place that way, probably being asymmetrical, and just it’s design in general.


    If they were to balance for only the highest levels, it would create too large a rift for new players to cross. They balance for high levels, opposite happens and killers would never win. That I think is what a lot of the X killers have no counterplay discussions pop up, because technically they do, it just requires a win condition to be met most players will never be able to achieve.


    Do I have an answer, nope, not in the slightest. I just think they should balance with the most common players in mind, while still trying not to alienate the high levels.


    Also, interesting thing about Smite, too bad I quit the game, since solo lane was my jam. I haven’t kept up with that game since Achilles came out, so it’s been a minute.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    Dude smites in a pretty good spot right now. Was pretty cracked when the season started but mids, junglers, and solos have been reigned back in. Would recommend picking it back up again

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,722

    are people really clicking on a thread that says "3600 words" at the title and going "I'm not reading that!"?

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    theyre also mocking it for being in depth and using outside examples! tbf, I am very proud and satisfied with those who did take the time to read it and actually talk about it. Makes me excited to do more of these kinds of posts in the future.

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,722
  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 10,465

    I agree some power gap must exists. It is a 4v1 and a part of 4 shouldn't equal the other side. Where I would differ is there doesn't seem to be any power for that 1/4. A little information I feel is needed. A small indicator that she is phasing but not one that tells where she is phasing. So standing still is still an option but visual feedback is no longer given for free.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    Na its OK. A little hurtful but I'm a big boy. I can take it. It's nothing compared to being on comms and having your producer scream at you for not being psychic.

  • Unifall
    Unifall Member Posts: 747
    edited June 2021

    I like how much effort you put into this instead of most discussions just being "this takes no skill" "this is op". It is very well written and sums up the spirit discussions. I'm sure you would enjoy this @odra

  • Pilot
    Pilot Member Posts: 1,158

    Mother of....

    This is exactly what I need to read at 1 AM, drunk & high.

    Thank you

  • FrenziedRoach
    FrenziedRoach Member Posts: 2,599

    Thank you for at least breaking-down what we mean by "counter playing" or "mind gaming" a spirit. Not that the people who need to see it and understand will "get it" mind you - but if you get at least a couple people to think about it, I think the effort was worth it.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    100% I just didn't see the conversation stopping anytime soon. So I felt like if try and go as deep into it as I could I could help shed light on the situation a bit better than it's been presented so far. Nothing happens by people saying "spirit op plz nerf" explanations go a long way in making people understand one another.

  • NekoTorvic
    NekoTorvic Member Posts: 850

    I think there's something to be said about preemptive counter play regardless of whether you can know what killer youre going against or not before the match.

    Once you see what killer you're dealing with within a match, if you're a good player, you immediately have to use all of your knowledge of how the killer is typically played. This seems to me to be almost a hybrid between preemptive and conditional counterplay.

    People will say "how are you supposed to condition a killer in the relatively small amount of interactions you have with them during a trial". The answer is: if you're a good survivor you have vast knowledge of how the killer is played at a higher level in general, so there's already pre conditioning happening. you'll expect certain plays, because those are the plays a person of x level will have. The more right reads you make, the more you build a profile of the player in your mind.

    Killers do this literally all of the time and no one cares because it's killers... but FOR INSTANCE:

    If you are at a structure where you lose LoS, and you make a play expecting a certain pathing from a competent survivor, if the survivor keeps their course and does not adjust, there's a very good chance that survivor is not even looking behind them, so these kinds of mindgames that would work on more attentive survivors do not work. In that one interaction you're able to build a profile of the player you're going against, because you're immediately comparing it to what a competent player typically does.

    This happens so much that throughout a match, a killer will, after 1 or 2 chases be able to accurately say exactly what the survivor is going to do before they do it, even if they can't do anything about it.

    So this is just something I think is pertinent regarding your overall point. When you go against a player, using a specific character, you don't go from nothing, you go from all your previously accumulated understanding on how the specific character should be played. With this, you can make some pretty accurate predictions about the playstyle the player will have, and with 1 or 2 interactions you can build a profile of their actual playstyle.

  • SirCracken
    SirCracken Member Posts: 1,414
    edited June 2021

    What do you know? Someone else on these god-forsaken forums that likes writing essays!

    It was a very good and decisive read. Having endured many of the spirit arguments that take place here, I think you did a fine job explaining the process behind playing against her. Which also applies to most killers in the game funnily enough. I shame I think, that most people who despise Spirit for not being loopable will likely not read this. What with them being allergic to logical arguments and all.

    I will throw in my 2-cents for the more rational people who still don't like her very much. Because I think they dislike her for a completely different reason than they describe: feedback. My evidence for this is another killer that does everything Spirit does but better. Nurse.

    If a good Nurse sees you, you're screwed. In the hands of an experienced player Nurse has no counter-play from an individual survivor. The only thing you can do is hope that your team repairs gens faster than the Nurse can get downs. And yet most people have absolutely no problem with Nurse as a killer despite this, but they do with Spirit. And I think it's because of how both of their powers give information to survivors.

    Nurse -
    1. Charges up her blink.
    2. Blinks towards targeted location.
    3. Reappears.
    4. Attacks.
    Spirit -
    1. Stands still for a few seconds and begins phasing.
    2. Ends phasing and reappears.
    3. Attacks.

    For a survivor who doesn't understand the nuances of counterplay as you went over in your post it makes complete sense why they would find Spirit so frustrating to go against but not Nurse. They know when a Nurse is going somewhere. They know when she'll arrive and almost certainly know that she'll attack once she does. It doesn't matter if they're completely dead in the ground the moment a Nurse spots them. Because they know how she her power functions their imminent death seems "more fair" in a way.

    But with Spirit it all seems in the air. "Where is she? Where is she going? When will she arriv- and I'm dead." Getting downed by a Spirit is usually very sudden and unmediated. At least for the survivor. They feel cheated because there wasn't enough of a sign that they were about to go down. Because they don't know if the Spirit is using her power or not.

    I'll bet that complaints about Spirit's "Inability to be mind gamed" will be quickly silenced if there was a tell added to her power. Something that let survivors know: "Hey. You're about to eat dirt".

    But that's enough from me.

    tl:dr Good post!

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    I feel like providing som sort of information would alleviate a lot of peoples issues. The one change I came up with would be that you recieve a notification if she phases within 24 meters of you. This still allows the spirit to be able sneak up on people but makes her power in chase give a bit more information.

  • MongolPSR
    MongolPSR Member Posts: 1,032

    Exactly. By each survivors first chase I have a general idea on whos the strongest player and whos the weak link. who I want to let go and force them to have to play poorly to get hook saves.

  • PureDoctorMain
    PureDoctorMain Member Posts: 341

    God I thought you were lying

    Aight gimme a minute ill be back with complements later.

  • PureDoctorMain
    PureDoctorMain Member Posts: 341

    Ok this is very good. You have proof rooted in science, you have very good speech when writing, and you obviously know what you're talking about. Its so well written you would think a college english professor wrote it. You sir are now my favorite poster on this forum congratulations its an honor to present you with this.