I really don't get these Spirit threads...?
This is going to be a little high-brow, so please do try to understand the point at hand rather than resorting to the gutteral "nerrrrrff shpireh!!"
With regards to the claim, "Spirit does not have counter-play", as a negative assertion, it cannot be proven! The only way to prove it is to take complete domain knowledge and demonstrate in a positive manner that there is no scenario where you can "beat" the Spirit. But you only need a single instance of being able to "beat" a Spirit to render this argument false.
Yes, it's a nuanced point to grasp, so let me explain with a benign example... suppose we made the claim that "there is no-one in the world called 'Freddy Frog-Munching Manequin'". Again, it's a negative assertion, and the only way to prove it is through positively identifying every person in the world somehow and demonstrating that their name is not 'Freddy...'. And only through that positive assertion with complete domain knowledge (in this case, the names of every person) can you infer the negative.
But conversely, you only need one person called 'Freddy....' to disprove this claim.
In the same way, you could argue that every game where the claim is that Spirit has no counter-play is just actually an example of the counter-play not being employed (maybe because it's unknown, or the player is inexperienced, etc).
When the Spirit is phasing, she cannot see the survivor!! She has a weakness in that she can only rely on sound (and has to give up a perk slot to use Stridor if that's the sticking point). But she cannot vault through windows in phase, she cannot traverse through pallets in phase, her phase is not indefinite and it has a cooldown. And whilst it's on cooldown, she's a 110% killer.
When she's phasing, it's possible to drop pallets at the wrong side, to path in an unusual manner, to slow-vault through a window (after maybe fast vaulting the other way), etc. All of these are valid and viable strategies to try and escape a Spirit. She has to make a guess as to where you are, and if she guesses you're on the other side, she needs the phase-time to reach the other side (which on jungle-gyms can be a lot to ask).
Yes, the odds are in her favour in that she can hear you, and by the time you hear the Spirit it's too late 'cos she'll get a hit. But this is my second point...
YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO COMPLETELY 100% JUKE ANY KILLER!!
The survivors are not equal to the killer individually. There is ONE killer, there are FOUR survivors! The game has to lean towards the killer being able to get a down because whilst they're chasing one survivor, the other three could be doing objectives!
You're not supposed to win every 50/50 with the Spirit because she needs to get her hits/downs/hooks in order to progress her goals... the same as the other three survivors not in chase are doing for their collective goals.
A lot of the complaints seem to stem from the notion of wanted to be able to juke any Spirit indefinitely... which then begs the question, what fun is that? Why would anyone want to play killer when they're going to be nerfed to the point of ineffectiveness. Three survivors can bang out 3 gens in 1.5 minutes. If a chase with the 4th survivor takes that long because they want to kill off literally Spirits only advantage (you can't see her, but she can't see you too), then more than half the game is gone with no progress achieved for the killer.
Is that fun? Really? For the other three survivors to be sitting idly on a gen? Or going against a killer that you know in advance is a sure-shot you can defeat in a chase.
We're seeing the repercussions of this now... survivor queues are taking 10m or more, killers are instant because hardly anyone wants to play killer. And tbh, I want to get into games than be sitting in the lobby for longer than a game lasts.
If all the killers - even the fun ones - are decimated to appease this faulty survivor mindset, it'll ultimately hurt the game because killers won't want to play.
(and 'cos I know someone will bring it up... I play survivor/killer 50/50, wouldn't consider myself an expert on either, and I prefer playing Nurse to Spirit, but also think Spirit is fine where she is... I'm just bored of the monthly cycle of "X-Killer is OP, pls nerf!!" bandwagons)
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Scott had challange. I will be so glad if you shows us how you can counter her.
Teach us master.
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You don't get spirit threads so you made a spirit thread on your own, nice
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Play in a custom game with @ScottJund and prove that she does have counterplay then.
Or take a look at this video here:
Does spirit have counterplay bevause of this, as you were saying bevause I beat her, or was she just garbage?
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To be fair, you have to be a very skilled killer to play Spirit. The timing on her phase attack is extremely subtle, without a solid grasp on your mouse to use it, which the typical killer simply is unable to do, you're going to 0k. There's also Spirit's mindgames that you have to take into account, do you use your phase at a pallet to hit the person on the other side, or do you simply do nothing and wait for the survivor to do it on their own? The best Spirit mains understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appriciate the precise timing of Spirit's m2, to realise that its not just a "boring power with little to no counterplay", they show SKILL in the GAME.
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I'll just list 3 reason why she's in need of change.
- You can't tell when she's using her power, which forces survivor to guess and that's not a reliable counter.
- She's low risk, high reward killer. She's pretty easy to learn and dominate with and barely has any downside.
- With the reason mentioned above, lack of counterplay and broken power makes her very frustrating to go against and makes it unfun for the other side.
Also when I play survivor I thrive on intense and fun chases, whether I die or not, but facing someone like spirit just makes my most favorite element of the game just miserable.
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You're getting caught up in the semantics. There is counterplay to spirit - doing 50/50 guesses, running Iron Will + Lucky Break, hoping the sound bugs out and you can sneak around... but that's about it.
It's just about the 50/50 guesses. That's not fun. You can juke every killer by fake vaulting or fake dropping pallets or doubling back etc, but you can't do that with spirit. What you can do is drop every pallet and pray. And that's not fun. That's the point.
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Yeah, as a former Spirit main that absolutely adores the character, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you hard on that one. Doing short bursts and standing still is not that big brain and her power can be mastered in like 10 games. Tracking by sound is a skill but the problem is you don’t even need to do that with Spirit a lot of the time because of the nature of her power being almost uncounterable.
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I think Aneu was reciting a copypasta.
At least I hope he was
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Well I hope so too then. It just kind of sounded like he was being legit,
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The irony of the situation, this now turned into a spirit thread
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I mean today I made a spirit check the same gen three times with red herring, I think this might be the counterplay we've all been waiting for
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This is gonna trigger so many r/whoosh replies lmao.
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I aint gonna read that but cool if I'd agree or nah if I'd disagree
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> With regards to the claim, "Spirit does not have counter-play", as a negative assertion, it cannot be proven! The only way to prove it is to take complete domain knowledge and demonstrate in a positive manner that there is no scenario where you can "beat" the Spirit. But you only need a single instance of being able to "beat" a Spirit to render this argument false.
Yes, i too have read Karl Popper, thanks
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This "she was just garbage" argument i hear everytime. Her power works in a way that it is supposed to be on her if she kills you, just like Nurse. Why do everyone need that one counterplay, that one thing that you can always do and then you just win if you do it?
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The ones who don't understand how to counter Spirit seem to be the ones who like to gen rush. If your not in a hurry it isn't that hard.
I have seen survivors who are good on countering her. Generally they don't rush through the match which plays a big part in it. I have gone several matches successfully losing her in chases. Doesn't happen all the time however it happens more often then it doesn't.
I have done a some matches as the Spirit this morning and one was note worthy. A couple of the survivors where ranked as 14 and 15. The other two where ranked 1 and 3. Among the 4 survivors the rank 14 was the best at countering me and escaped. The rank 15 disconnected after being picked up the first time though they a bad luck situation when the rank 1 survivor revealed both of there locations by vaulting at the beginning of the match.(Not sure why survivors do this but that is for a different discussion.)
The rank 1 was the worse at it. I never lost them in a chase. Most of the match I was thinking they that survivor wanted to get sacrificed. Only a couple of times did they actually seem to be trying to get away. Unfortunate for the rank 15 that the rank 1 led me right to them. I hate that when that happens when I am playing as a survivor.
Anyways the rank 3 was not much better than the rank 1 though in the survivors case I don't think they were trying to get sacrificed. The survivor just was not that good at hiding or getting away.
The rank 1 and 3 ended up getting sacrificed and I let the rank 14 escape through the hatch. I was impressed by the rank 14 survivor. They made the match fun. Can't say the same for the other 3 survivors.
It's interesting how often mid rank survivors are better at countering Spirit then the higher ranks survivors are.
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You've straw-manned my point here entirely, and even Scott's "challenge" was a misrepresentation of normal gameplay. IIRC they start together at the shack (so she's already very closeby), and she starts off with full phase ability. So already - in a real game scenario - the survivor has made a mistake in letting the killer know where they are, and depending on circumstances, being out-positioned.
In a real game scenario, like I said, there'd be three other survivors doing gens, and progressing the survivor's collective objective.
I specifically said that you're not supposed to counter any killer indefinitely... the killer is supposed to be stronger than any individual survivor by design of the game, i.e. 1v4.
And I also specifically said I wouldn't consider myself an expert on either... but I have seen experts play and watch them counter Spirit a number of times.
See, this is the problem... you try to have a nuanced discussion, but it just descends into mob rule because the masses don't understand the nuance, nor the consequences of getting their perceived way.
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Was the title thread a question or an afirmation? It started as a afirmation of opinion( I dont get these spirit Threads) and it finished as a question( ?). And you jst made another Spirit thread. Whatever tho
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It's both... it's a statement of my current position, whilst inviting further clarification from anyone who might think I've misunderstood. I'm not so arrogant as to believe that my opinion is the objective truth... it's literally just that - an opinion! The basis of my opinion is based on objective factors though, so I consider it strong, but I don't claim total domain knowledge so it's perfectly possible for someone to counter my opinion with an equally strong (or stronger) argument.
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There is a spirit counter but its on only competitive mode, you cant say to your fellow teamates to do gens because you are in chase during a solo queue match, you have to depend that they are actually doing something that helps, SWF can easily counter spirit as you said gen rushing, but to end up not getting killed, you will have to catch spirits attention when she is in chase with a survivor that was hooked 2 times already, and if you cant, then you are not in a gen and your teamate died meaning that you were innutile for that time.
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Because it makes her completely boring to go against. Your input as survivor does not matter. If i wanted that i could also just play a slot machine.
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Ur opinion is not right and not wrong, its your opinion, if its your opinion, you dont need to put the ? as you are sure of you position of certain thing, and the thread even without the ? is alredy trying to call people to reply and make a discussion as the name says.
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I- what?
I didn't do anything monumental in that video, it was solo, the spirit was just awful if it took her that long to down me.
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The survivor doesn't appear to even be trying to counter Spirit for much of that video or even get away from her.
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The main arguement seems to be "i cant see where shes going so its just a guessing game"
Thats the same with nurse. Your blocking los and trying to guess where she will blink.
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Which is literally the point of breaking LOS, as well as the Spirit's power. It's like complaining that the Hillbilly has a chainsaw that can instadown you, or that the Trapper has traps that can keep you in place. That's literally the point.
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No, I'm not. I'm jus running while listening to someone talk through FNAF lore. Hence my question of if she was just garbage.
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I'm getting the feeling survivors don't want the killer to have a chance. They just want all of them to be a trapper without traps.
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There are reasons Spirit is the only killer in need of a nerf.
- You have no indication she's using her power
- She's in contention for strongest add-ons in the game.
- She alleviated a lot by Stridor
- Her "counter play" doesn't work against a Spirit familiar with sounds. Like walking or crouching. And since Spirit is easier to learn then the other top tiers. People who have the basic familiarity can get her down
- One counter play shown as drop a pallet and make guessing harder only works in tournaments with competent teammates. But doesn't work in Solo Q with farmer teammates who don't touch gens.
- Those are the reasons Spirit needs significant changes. Since all this "counter play" is hope she guesses wrong.
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That or the killer wasn't actually trying to sacrifice anyone.
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Counters which can be used effectively and botched by Survivors to extend survival time:
Approaching audio que
She is blind while in phase
Pallets
Windows
Pre-chase stealth
In chase los blockers
Layering scratch marks
Looping stealth escape
Perks- can't name them all but fixated and iron will are a good start
Plenty of counterplay and room to make mistakes. Quick decisions and rng play a role but we are never without counterplay.
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There's counterplay against spirit. The thing is though people will say "1v1 challenge!!!11" but they don't seem to understand that this is a 1v4 game. 1v1 proves nothing. The only things that spirit needs is and indication when she phases thats all. Ive escaped spriirts using counterplays such as double backing, hiding scratch marks around corners, regular looping, slow vaulting etc. But they will still say "noooo!! Thats not counterplay you only went against a bad spirit!!!"
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The power doesn't need a direct chase counter as it has built in weakness. Chase has all the resources needed to prolong and escape. Audio doesn't negate any of the previously mentioned counters, only can make them more difficult when the player is good.
Have snuck away from spirits on multiple occasions after misdirecting them into giving me more distance.
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Play against my spirit and you will.
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Sure, the current counterplay is hope the first chase lasts long enough to finish all 5 gens and leave the first hooked person to die.
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Always has been
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Not even close to what I said. But sure keep telling yourself that.
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