Upcoming Legion Changes Discussion
THE LEGION CHANGES:
- Reduced The Legion Feral Frenzy Vault distance
To give The Legion a sense of speed when they vault, we had increased the distance coming out of the vault. Unfortunately, this meant that Survivors had a larger window to juke The Legion by going back through the same vault location. We have reduced the distance to tighten the gap and allow The Legion an opportunity to counter this.
- Removed the double stun effect when hitting Survivors affected by Deep Wound.
After hitting a Survivor affected by Deep Wound, The Legion will no longer play the weapon swipe animation. Instead, the attack will transition directly into the ‘fatigue’ state, before ending the power.
- Legion lunge distance increased
The Legion’s lunge was slightly too short compared to other Killers. It has been adjusted to match the standard speed curve off the base attack giving it a longer range.
DEEP WOUND STATUS CHANGES:
- Added a mending sound to Mend action
The sound for mending was missing during the PTB. Now you will hear a Survivor mending nearby.
- Added a progress reset to the Mend action
If a Survivor has made progress towards mending their Deep Wound status and is hit again by a Feral Frenzy attack, the progression will reset.
- The Deep Wound bleedout timer continues to progress during the Mend action
While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state.
- Specific actions that are not considered ‘Healing’ actions, will no longer be affected by perks that refer to healing.
Mend, Snap out of it, and Wake up, are no longer considered healing actions, and as such, will not be affected by perks that refer to healing.
NOTE These changes will not be updated on the Player Test Build. They will, however, be available in the upcoming chapter release, Darkness Among Us. Let us know what you think!
What do you think about those changes? Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/33730/the-legion-changes#latest
Comments
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Personally, I'm not so sure about those changes. They don't seem to adress the biggest problem of the legion: Downing someone effectively and fast.
Those changes seem like bugfixes or minor QoL improvements (fatigue after weapon swipe for example or shorter vault, longer attack range) but nothing game changing.
You will still lose all your power bar when you hit a survivor normally, you will still have to hit survivors 4 times in frenzy to down them which will take ages... We'll see how the Legion performs but my guess is that he will still be a really bad killer.
The devs still don't seem to understand that this game is all about chases and that you put out way more pressure by downing survivors quickly and hooking them. Survivors only have to mend a bit against Legion. And switching targets as killer all the time won't really help you to win the game, especially with really bad chase potential which is crucial if you want to be a viable killer.
Post edited by Claudette_Baguette on14 -
Won't help him much, as his power is still not a problem for survivors.
He will still have trouble downing them, and they will still run wounded across the map, being happy about it, because being healthy is the same as being wounded.
5 -
SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.
Im very
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@Master said:
SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.Im very
TBH, this was sadly what I expected. The devs don't know how to make a good killer, they don't understand that wasting survivor's time by downing and hooking them is way better than having to mend. The Legion still can't down people fast enough to be a viable killer.
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@Juicy_Juice said:
still trash 110% movement speed without ability to help catch survivors or down them quickly.devs clearly seem to not understand that the game is all about chases and cant balance the game
they wont get money from me this time, this killer still sucks
Turbo/Macro+AFK Wraith + ~30 hours = Free Garbage Killer
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Me after reading the changes:
19 -
2 things one, atleast they tried to buff legion and 2 @Claudette_Baguette just for you
7 -
Absolute trash changes, just like where the killer is left. These changes are QoL at BEST, definitely not the buffs he needed. They fixed none of his core issues whatsoever. They are seriously so out of touch with their game. Dudes gonna be dumped next to freddy on release.
8 -
ok who any of this help the killer ?
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It is clear that the devs judge the game by the way they play it. It might be too difficult for them to deal with this killer but the legion is quite manageable.
There were discussions about which killer was the worst killer in the game. Some people would say Freddy, some would say Leatherface, and others would say the Pig but after his release, this killer will be officially the worst killer because they refuse to listen to anybody.
7 -
Nice bugfixes. When can we expect the changes, please?13
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The changes to Legion himself are good quality of life changes that'll improve him somewhat.
The big downer is the Deep Wound changes.. or lack of. Noise being the only good one.Progress reset when Legion hits you sort of a half-way between how normal healing works and Snap Out works. Deep Wound would be far better off being like Snap Out, in that you lose all progress if you so much as pause.
Bleeding out while Mending would have been a good change IF it could down survivors who're mending. Remember, you're literally hitting them and running off, so they start mending right away. And even if you now manage to engage them enough that they'll bleed out, just mending stops it at 99%.. Just as worthless as before.
7 -
Very disappointing they did nothing to fix his ability nor his crappy 110% speed and BT is now a third health state now7
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I'm glad that the timer will still tick down while mending, but it still takes Legion way too long to down people.1
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I'm not sure those changes will improve Legion enough to want to make them playable for me. It still just seems very lackluster. I guess I'll see when they go live.
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I have to agree. With all due respect to the developers, these changes were not enough. My biggest issue with this PTB was the way the deep wound status effect worked, and they did nothing that genuinely made it any better.
The change to nurses calling is just incredibly bizarre and, to my knowledge, one that a large number of players did not even request. If you are snapping out of it or waking up near the killer, then you deserve to be caught by nurses calling.
Post edited by TheOwl on9 -
The only important change is removing double stun, the rest isn't going to help him/her much.
Making DW count down while performing the mend action was a good start but they ruined it with the whole not going down past 99% while mending. It doesn't fix the issue that the killer is made to do the opposite of tunneling, so as soon as they turn their attention away the survivor can easily mend uninterrupted. Not being affected by NC and having no skill checks means that survivors can just find an okay hiding spot and mend without any worry of being stopped partway through, so the bar ticking down during it does nothing.
Progress being reset only on another frenzy attack instead of just anytime they mend -> stop partway through-> mend again also doesn't help either. If the killer finds them while they're mending they'll either m1 them, or hit them 1x in frenzy and chase backwards so the timer ticks down (if that 1 frenzy hit didn't down them). If the survivor escapes a 2nd chase still in the 1st time deep wound that was inflicted, well that's just a bad killer anyways.
I guess I should still give it a chance but, eh. Just let me have Jeff and be happy that 1/2 the DLC is good.
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Does nothing to address the actual problem Legion has: they can't down survivors effectively. I get that it would be very easy for Legion to become OP, but I question why the devs sunk a whole cycle into something that just doesn't really work in the context of the game without being severely underpowered.3
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Right dude?... like for almost 2 years the devs stand by that "snapping out of it" is a healing action... and now they nerf him because ######### it??........m this announcement better be goodMaster said:SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.
Im very
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"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."
They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
"Mend, Snap out of it, and Wake up, are no longer considered healing actions, and as such, will not be affected by perks that refer to healing."
...Then they went full Loco to stop all those crazy complaints filling up the board regarding these actions and their interactions with various perks ;3
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Garbage. Barely fixed anything.3
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My first thought was: Okayish changes, but doesn't fix issues like survivors not healing against Legion etc. The fact that downing decent survivors is way too hard, while getting a frenzy hit is too easy. I know Legions design is based on getting easy first strikes, but really I only see issues with that. Has too many chances for frustration.
Besides that I belong to the group of people dealing with perfomance issues with the engine changes. So I already knew I will have to hold back buying the new DLC on Launch, depending how the game runs after patch. But after reading this... I've decided to wait anyway.
Spirit already was launched in a way they didn't intended and basicly finished balancing wise with the MidChapter patch. A few weeks after that Spirit DLCs was already in sale.
Legion looks like they won't be properly balanced befor MidChapter. And who knows how fast the next DLC might get in sale as well. No I will sit this one out. I'm too unsatisfied with recent killer designs. Even the AddOns are quite boring mostly simple value changing ones.2 -
@Freudentrauma said:
My first thought was: Okayish changes, but doesn't fix issues like survivors not healing against Legion etc. The fact that downing decent survivors is way too hard, while getting a frenzy hit is too easy. I know Legions design is based on getting easy first strikes, but really I only see issues with that. Has too many chances for frustration.
Besides that I belong to the group of people dealing with perfomance issues with the engine changes. So I already knew I will have to hold back buying the new DLC on Launch, depending how the game runs after patch. But after reading this... I've decided to wait anyway.
Spirit already was launched in a way they didn't intended and basicly finished balancing wise with the MidChapter patch. A few weeks after that Spirit DLCs was already in sale.
Legion looks like they won't be properly balanced befor MidChapter. And who knows how fast the next DLC might get in sale as well. No I will sit this one out. I'm too unsatisfied with recent killer designs. Even the AddOns are quite boring mostly simple value changing ones.Yeah I won't be spending anymore money till I see some actual changes.
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Wow pretty big nerf to Doc there imho with Snap Out of It.
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Casual reminder that not buying the DLC is the most effective way to let the devs know how you feel about this weak killer. These changes are not enough, guys, try again.
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To start with the (few) positives:
- I think removing the double stun is better than it's given credit here, it'll save a bit time and make catching up to survivors easier.
- Keeping 110% movement speed is the right call imo. With 115% and no buff for the ability, it would simply be your standard killer with another tweak. Theoretically, making the ability better instead of the walking speed makes him more unique. Sadly, that didn't really happen.
Negatives:
- The problem that it makes no difference if you're hitting an injuried or a healthy survivor with Frenzy/Deep Wound persists. That's still a fundemental flaw.
- Edit: Same goes for losing the entire power bar with a regular hit. Just doesn't make much sense if you couldn't down the survivor any faster anyways.
- With this and Deep Wound not being considered a healing action, a lot of perks aren't viable on him.
- Borrowed Time is still on steroids. The perk was okay before, no need to buff it like this.
- Why on earth are we getting nerfs for Doctor and Freddy? This was totally uncalled for. So instead of fixing the problem for Legion, we're creating the same problem for several characters...
Post edited by Chuckyyo on2 -
Indeed. At this rate, this will be the first DLC I actually don't buy.itsDorkMagic said:Casual reminder that not buying the DLC is the most effective way to let the devs know how you feel about this weak killer. These changes are not enough, guys, try again.
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The overall whining about everything, didn't expect anything else. Pretty sure most people still don't know how that killer works and he/she needs to be played.
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@Blueberry said:
Yeah I won't be spending anymore money till I see some actual changes.
I kinda understand the decisions that are being made, from a business point of view. These and all the similar threads (including those talking about how nurse wouldn't see scratch marks if released today), are probably started - and kept relevant by - players with somewhat a large amount of experience in the game. How many of those players are there, as opposed to newer players? The ones getting it for free with PS plus? The ones buying it at any of the multiple sales and discounts?
New players wanting to try the killer side are going to have success (and/or fun) with the Legion nonetheless, because they will be playing against (mostly) new players also. As long as you keep attracting a new player base constantly, I don't see the need of catering to all the grumpy old players' needs (who tend to express their concerns with a heavy one-sided bias). That may be why it looks like the game is being balanced for low-rank play.
Now, there are 4 new survivor-choosing players for every new player choosing killer. Anyone can draw conclusions from that.
Finally, if the game reaches a state which more experienced players may perceive as unfair, too one-sided or just unfun to play at, two things may happen: minor tweaks to keep the old guys there, or old guys moving on to other games. No one is forced to buy or play anything. After all, I think that 200 hours are more than enough value for any videogame price tag. There are guys with 2000+ hours on this??!! Tell me what other entertainment product will give you that for $40 or $50?
Sooner or later, it will be time to move on.
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The solution was very simple: Make it so that hitting a deep wounded survivor doesn't end Frenzy; make it so hitting the same target twice during the same Frenzy ends it instead, thus requiring 2 total activations of Frenzy (4 hits) to down a survivor.
But I guess the devs still want to pretend that Feral Frenzy is on the same level of strength as Hatchets, Teleportation traps, invisibility+teleportation, and blinks, thus the 110 move speed.
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@alivebydeadight said:
2 things one, atleast they tried to buff legion and 2 @Claudette_Baguette just for youI laughed too much at this!
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Poor Legion. Dead before he was even born.10
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@Condorloco_26 said:
@Blueberry said:
Yeah I won't be spending anymore money till I see some actual changes.
I kinda understand the decisions that are being made, from a business point of view. These and all the similar threads (including those talking about how nurse wouldn't see scratch marks if released today), are probably started - and kept relevant by - players with somewhat a large amount of experience in the game. How many of those players are there, as opposed to newer players? The ones getting it for free with PS plus? The ones buying it at any of the multiple sales and discounts?
New players wanting to try the killer side are going to have success (and/or fun) with the Legion nonetheless, because they will be playing against (mostly) new players also. As long as you keep attracting a new player base constantly, I don't see the need of catering to all the grumpy old players' needs (who tend to express their concerns with a heavy one-sided bias). That may be why it looks like the game is being balanced for low-rank play.
Now, there are 4 new survivor-choosing players for every new player choosing killer. Anyone can draw conclusions from that.
Finally, if the game reaches a state which more experienced players may perceive as unfair, too one-sided or just unfun to play at, two things may happen: minor tweaks to keep the old guys there, or old guys moving on to other games. No one is forced to buy or play anything. After all, I think that 200 hours are more than enough value for any videogame price tag. There are guys with 2000+ hours on this??!! Tell me what other entertainment product will give you that for $40 or $50?
Sooner or later, it will be time to move on.
Yeah I've got well over 2000 hours, never said it wasn't worth the money. Just referencing future spending.
I guess your theory all depends on if forsaking player retention for a constant new player stream will yield better results.
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It's good to see your making changes but the only thing to add to it is if all 4 are ingured in game with no healthy frenzy can down1
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It's a start. Remember the Spirit took a few updates to get to where she is now.
This addresses the vital stuff.
The double fatigue was really crippling him and a lot of players simply didn't grasp the idea of manually cancelling the frenzy, probably because it felt unintuitve.
The vault distance is a good fix as a lot of people were exploiting this on the PTB
Mend sound is good. Gives the Legion a chance at finding people mending nearby.
Progress reset, needed. Made no sense why it didn't reset if hit again, probably an oversight.
They've fixed the essentials or things that were probably oversights. In terms of buffs I think they will come like they did with Spirit. I just think they want to wait and see how it goes. They'll probably monitor peoples feedback and gameplay footage and see what needs doing after. Then introduce little buffs here and there so he isn't overdone. I think Bricky said it best when he described Legion as being on a see-saw in terms of balance.
The only thing that's concerning to me is the fact that the mending time goes down while mending. I get why they did this. People could run, mend, run, mend, like they used to with self-care and bump it up bit by bit. This forces you when the bar gets low enough to stand and mend fully, and if you get interrupted then you're going down. I just hope he doesn't become incredibly annoying to go up against as a survivor. I mean look at Freddy, he's weak but most people find him the most annoying killer.
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@The_Crusader said:
It's a start. Remember the Spirit took a few updates to get to where she is now.This addresses the vital stuff.
The double fatigue was really crippling him and a lot of players simply didn't grasp the idea of manually cancelling the frenzy, probably because it felt unintuitve.
The vault distance is a good fix as a lot of people were exploiting this on the PTB
Mend sound is good. Gives the Legion a chance at finding people mending nearby.
Progress reset, needed. Made no sense why it didn't reset if hit again, probably an oversight.
They've fixed the essentials or things that were probably oversights. In terms of buffs I think they will come like they did with Spirit. I just think they want to wait and see how it goes. They'll probably monitor peoples feedback and gameplay footage and see what needs doing after. Then introduce little buffs here and there so he isn't overdone. I think Bricky said it best when he described Legion as being on a see-saw in terms of balance.
The only thing that's concerning to me is the fact that the mending time goes down while mending. I get why they did this. People could run, mend, run, mend, like they used to with self-care and bump it up bit by bit. This forces you when the bar gets low enough to stand and mend fully, and if you get interrupted then you're going down. I just hope he doesn't become incredibly annoying to go up against as a survivor. I mean look at Freddy, he's weak but most people find him the most annoying killer.
We basically just got bug fixes for him. Not really any buffs. He's a tricky one to balance but that's on them since they made it.
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These changes feel like bandaid fixes to whats really wrong with him, plus they're not going to give us the chance to test this. @not_Queen PLEASE DO NOT RELEASE THE KILLER LIKE THIS, TEST THIS STUFF ON THE PTB AND ONCE IT'S POLISHED PUSH EVERYTHING TO LIVE!!! I don't like how they are starting to go back to the old BHVR mentality where they would just give us a little taste of the chapter, and then push it to live with a bunch of changes. It feels like a compromise between the older methods of surprising us with a chapter and The Clown PTB where there were multiple patches to get him somewhat solid.
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@Blueberry said:
Yeah I've got well over 2000 hours, never said it wasn't worth the money. Just referencing future spending.
I guess your theory all depends on if forsaking player retention for a constant new player stream will yield better results.
Only time will tell. But there are some examples, we all know what happened with Diablo, which has or had, one of the most die-hard-bordering-on-rabid fanbase out there, since the mid 90's.
And under no circumstance I meant to deride spending 2000+ hours on this game, or any other job, hobby or activity whatsoever. I just mentioned it to highlight how much value we all are getting/got out of this game.
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@Raccoon said:
"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
That is ridiculous. If mend ticked down fully while mending you'd be buggered. You'd have what, 20 seconds in which to get away from the killer and fully heal? and it takes 15 seconds to mend. So you'd have 5 seconds in which to run away and find a place to mend fully.
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@The_Crusader said:
@Raccoon said:
"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
That is ridiculous. If mend ticked down fully while mending you'd be buggered. You'd have what, 20 seconds in which to get away from the killer and fully heal? and it takes 15 seconds to mend. So you'd have 5 seconds in which to run away and find a place to mend fully.
Do you really expect the devs to let the survivor be downed? It might ruin their fun!
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@Blueberry said:
@The_Crusader said:
It's a start. Remember the Spirit took a few updates to get to where she is now.This addresses the vital stuff.
The double fatigue was really crippling him and a lot of players simply didn't grasp the idea of manually cancelling the frenzy, probably because it felt unintuitve.
The vault distance is a good fix as a lot of people were exploiting this on the PTB
Mend sound is good. Gives the Legion a chance at finding people mending nearby.
Progress reset, needed. Made no sense why it didn't reset if hit again, probably an oversight.
They've fixed the essentials or things that were probably oversights. In terms of buffs I think they will come like they did with Spirit. I just think they want to wait and see how it goes. They'll probably monitor peoples feedback and gameplay footage and see what needs doing after. Then introduce little buffs here and there so he isn't overdone. I think Bricky said it best when he described Legion as being on a see-saw in terms of balance.
The only thing that's concerning to me is the fact that the mending time goes down while mending. I get why they did this. People could run, mend, run, mend, like they used to with self-care and bump it up bit by bit. This forces you when the bar gets low enough to stand and mend fully, and if you get interrupted then you're going down. I just hope he doesn't become incredibly annoying to go up against as a survivor. I mean look at Freddy, he's weak but most people find him the most annoying killer.
We basically just got bug fixes for him. Not really any buffs. He's a tricky one to balance but that's on them since they made it.
You're right it is on them.
I do think they will buff him, I just think it's going to come after release.
But yeah these were pretty much just quick fixes.
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@The_Crusader said:
@Raccoon said:
"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
That is ridiculous. If mend ticked down fully while mending you'd be buggered. You'd have what, 20 seconds in which to get away from the killer and fully heal? and it takes 15 seconds to mend. So you'd have 5 seconds in which to run away and find a place to mend fully.
Sounds like a well-thought out mechanic all around, sir/madam!
(By that, I mean the general concept of Deep Wounds)
Have an awesome
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@Raccoon said:
@The_Crusader said:
@Raccoon said:
"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
That is ridiculous. If mend ticked down fully while mending you'd be buggered. You'd have what, 20 seconds in which to get away from the killer and fully heal? and it takes 15 seconds to mend. So you'd have 5 seconds in which to run away and find a place to mend fully.
Sounds like a well-thought out mechanic all around, sir/madam!
(By that, I mean the general concept of Deep Wounds)
Have an awesome
I'm not going to disagree with that.
A killer who can sprint at 120% speed and vault pallets.....yeah that's going to be an easy one to balance.
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@The_Crusader said:
@Raccoon said:
@The_Crusader said:
@Raccoon said:
"While not in a chase, the Deep Wound timer will tick down – even while using the Mend action. As long as The Survivor continues to mend, the timer will not progress past 99% and will not go into the dying state."They almost made a viable change, but then they remembered that the game can be pretty spooky without someone holding your hand
That is ridiculous. If mend ticked down fully while mending you'd be buggered. You'd have what, 20 seconds in which to get away from the killer and fully heal? and it takes 15 seconds to mend. So you'd have 5 seconds in which to run away and find a place to mend fully.
Sounds like a well-thought out mechanic all around, sir/madam!
(By that, I mean the general concept of Deep Wounds)
Have an awesome
I'm not going to disagree with that.
A killer who can sprint at 120% speed and vault pallets.....yeah that's going to be an easy one to balance.
To be 100% serious for a moment, I was really excited for the new killer, their lore, and power.
After playing the PTB at only Rank 5-ish, boy did that fade
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@Master said:
SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.Im very
I had the very same thought.
-We get a new still weak killer.
-An old meta perk gets rebuffed.
-A mediocre killer gets a nerf.
Pretty good job so far. :sarcastic:After just 2 patches that slightly favored killer, the Devs go back to their regular survivor catering.
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@Raccoon said:
To be 100% serious for a moment, I was really excited for the new killer, their lore, and power.
After playing the PTB at only Rank 5-ish, boy did that fade
At least you could try it on the PTB and draw conclusions for yourself. Personally, I'm not even drawn into playing a killer which I genuinely think could be easily manhandled by some of the survivors, at least Tapp or David, should they choose to fight him.
Edit: I mean, I'm sure Tapp has arrested much tougher thugs and David has beaten crazier hooligans.
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@Wolf74 said:
@Master said:
SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.Im very
I had the very same thought.
-We get a new still weak killer.
-An old meta perk gets rebuffed.
-A mediocre killer gets a nerf.
Pretty good job so far. :sarcastic:After just 2 patches that slightly favored killer, the Devs go back to their regular survivor catering.
Don't forget that there's a new counter perk to BBQ and Nurses, two important meta perks that were strong but not overpowered. I'm still hopeful that Legion will become better with the next patch or so, but this update is really one sided.
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@Chuckyyo said:
@Wolf74 said:
@Master said:
SO the insane buff to BT stays, additionally they nerf doc.Im very
I had the very same thought.
-We get a new still weak killer.
-An old meta perk gets rebuffed.
-A mediocre killer gets a nerf.
Pretty good job so far. :sarcastic:After just 2 patches that slightly favored killer, the Devs go back to their regular survivor catering.
Don't forget that there's a new counter perk to BBQ and Nurses, two important meta perks that were strong but not overpowered. I'm still hopeful that Legion will become better with the next patch or so, but this update is really one sided.
Oh sorry, how could I have forgotten that?
Maybe because I usually do not run BBQ anyway, but of course it is not enough to give survivor an option to counter something, but you also have to nerf it.
I have some PTSD flashbacks from the days they trashed SFTS (a former strong perk) while they made Calm Spirit a 100% hard counter to it at the same time.
facpalmPS: And later everybody complained about Calm Spirit being a weak perk, because no on uses the perk it is supposed to counter. headdesk
2 -
I never play NC with doc and i never needed it. His tracking abilities are good enough, he never needed that minor change 1 year ago anyways. Stop being hypocritical about things that are pretty much irrelevant.
5
