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The Trans Community 🏳️⚧️
Hello.
As a cis-gender female, I wanted to have a discussion on the trans community. (I really just want to educate myself on the community because I rarely discuss things like this because it turns into chaos)
Of course this is a controversial topic (was skeptical about having it here because of some of the people who bring unnecessary hatred) but I wanted to know the difference between identification and gender. I know someone can identify as a women, but theres always the argument I see brought up that has to do with biology. For example, I saw a back n forth of Instagram under a famous trans women’s comments and someone argued that said person was a real women, and others chimed in opposing that she was not real woman.
Do trans-women/men like to identify as what they transitioned into for both identity and gender purposes?
Thanks in advance 💜
Sorry if I sound ignorant, I just genuinely wanted to have a discussion on this to learn more.
Going to tag @GoodBoyKaru & @Mooks because they seem super supportive and gentle when it comes to people who don’t understand things about the LGBTQIA+ 🧚🏽♀️
Edit: Want to thank @MadLordJack and @Gay Myers (Luzi) for chiming in as well. 💜
Comments
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Thanks for the tag and the nice words 💜🏳️🌈
Gotta admit that I am not that well educated in this subject as it might seem some times.
but I know as far as biology goes that being transgender/being ‚stuck In the wrong body‘ is definitely a scientifically proven thing to exist and that you can have a biological female brain while being born with the male gender/XY chromosomes.
and for identifying themselves: there probably are possible constellations and you can’t really generalize. I am friends with a trans-man (born woman) that definitely only identifies himselves as male both for gender and identity.
aaand don’t be sorry, you show interest and an open mind on this topic and that should definitely be acknowledged. No one can expect from any of us to have all the information but you are asking for it in a respectful way, so there seems to be nothing ignorant about it.
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Okay, allow me to preface this by saying I am cis and I'm not 100% on everything I'm saying. That said, I'll try my best to explain it.
As I know it, you have gender identity and you have biological sex. Gender identity is the gender you identify as- it can be male, female, non-binary, agender, etc. This forms the pronouns that you'd use- for example, I identify as a guy, so I go by he/him (though that's being questioned lately if I should try out he/they for a bit but that's a struggle for a different day). Gender identity is fluid and can change over time.
Then there's biological sex, which is the gender you are assigned at birth based upon your genitals. This is what is changed when people have "the operation"- they have the genitals and thus biological sex changed.
Regardless of this, if a woman is mtf trans she is a real woman and should be respected as such. If a man is ftm trans he is a real man and should be respected as such.
So, to answer your question, as far as I know they identify with what they either have- or would like to- transition into.
Again, though, I am cis and this is based upon my experience with transgender friends. If I have gotten something wrong, please feel free to correct me.
I'm gonna tag @MadLordJack here because she's trans (and I think she's okay with me mentioning it since she did last night) and can probably answer your questions better.
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Also wait a second.
Going to tag @GoodBoyKaru & @Mooks because they seem super supportive and gentle when it comes to people who don’t understand thing about the LGBTQIA+
This?? Me, supportive?? Have you seen the arguments I get into?! I think I might be the least gentle person I know lmao
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Despite not being tagged, here I am!
I can recommend you two YouTubers to check out that both are trans! Samantha Lux (mtf) and JammiDodger (ftm) (Jammi actually has a PHD in those kind topics and statistics, too, as he studied in them and other things!)! You should check both channels out, their videos are really good and they do go into some science stuff when they talk about the less nicer parts. There are quite a few studies that specifically touch on the subject of gender dysphoria, not gonna get into it too much, as I don't want some people to get possibly theirs triggered!
It's a bit of a complicated topic, but basically, trans men are real men and trans women are real women and they're all valid, including those who are nb/trans masc/femme c: It is not always necessary to transition either... it can be costly for some and in many countries it's very very tedious to do so, many restrictions, the wait times are insane in gender clinics... it's complex and I don't wanna get too much into it, as it can get lead to extensive discussions, but it can be hard. Not everyone also wants to transition and presents themselves in other ways, which is also perfectly fine and doesn't make them invalid! Everyone feels different, it's not a black and white thing actually either.
Identity is also a whole different boat, too! Be who are you most comfortable as... That's the best I can say, if you feel good with yourself, that's awesome, I'm glad! Showing interest is also good, it's always good to have an open mind and wanting to learn!
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I really can't have an opinion on this subject tbh, although I'm a bisexual I really do not have a lot of knowledge when it comes to gender identity
Your really not being fair to yourself dude, you are honestly pretty open - minded and calm, just because you stick up against dumb stuff doesn't mean you are not a gentle person.
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...am I allowed to disagree?
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I mean yea
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Hey @Mooks, no problem. Thank you honestly.
Despite you not being very well educated on this matter, I appreciate your effort in making an attempt to explain anyway. 🧚🏽♀️
but I know as far as biology goes that being transgender/being ‚stuck In the wrong body‘ is definitely a scientifically proven thing to exist and that you can have a biological female brain while being born with the male gender/XY chromosomes.
So there is an actual study about this?! I’d love to look into it deeper for sure. Do you happen to have any links/articles I can read/research?
aaand don’t be sorry, you show interest and an open mind on this topic and that should definitely be acknowledged. No one can expect from any of us to have all the information but you are asking for it in a respectful way, so there seems to be nothing ignorant about it.
And thank you 🥺
I’m always so scared to ask certain things about these kinds of subjects because it can be pretty touchy and a sensitive topic to elaborate on.
I also have a bit of fear when addressing/complimenting someone in person when it comes to pronouns. I feel some would take it offensively if I ask what they identify as and I never want it to seem like that.
You’re the best! Thank you. 💜
Hey Karu ^_^
Regardless of this, if a woman is mtf trans she is a real woman and should be respected as such. If a man is ftm trans he is a real man and should be respected as such.
I agree. I know people like to bring up the “she can’t have a baby, she doesn’t have a menstrual cycle and so on/so forth which is why I was always confused because, yes this is scientifically true, but from any other angle, does that actually matter?
I'm gonna tag @MadLordJack here because she's trans (and I think she's okay with me mentioning it since she did last night) and can probably answer your questions better.
Thank you for tagging her and informing me. I was unaware otherwise I would have tagged her too!! @MadLordJack please feel free to comment if you’d like. No pressure or anything 💜
This?? Me, supportive?? Have you seen the arguments I get into?! I think I might be the least gentle person I know lmao
I said what I said. And I completely agree with @JimboMason
You only ever seem to be sturn when it comes to outright hate and ignorance. That doesn’t render you a person who isn’t gentle and understanding when need be.
Don’t argue with me, I keel you. 💜
Thank you so much for commenting @Gay Myers (Luzi)! 💜
I’m sorry, I didn’t think to tag any others. I kinda stuck to who I saw around the forums discussing topics close to LGBTQIA+ when I am active. Now I know to tag you, if course this gives me the greenlight in future discussions? 🧚🏽♀️
Thank you so much for the recommendations!!! I will be diving into both of them tonight!
There are quite a few studies that specifically touch on the subject of gender dysphoria, not gonna get into it too much, as I don't want some people to get possibly theirs triggered!
Yes, I’ve also heard this term before as well (Gender Dysphoria). I completely forgot the name of it, thank you for reminding me.
I appreciate your post. It means a lot.
Thank you all for being so willing to inform me 🥺💜
I really do appreciate it so much 🏳️⚧️🧚🏽♀️
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I agree. I know people like to bring up the “she can’t have a baby, she doesn’t have a menstrual cycle and so on/so forth which is why I was always confused because, yes this is scientifically true, but from any other angle, does that actually matter?
that’s actually something I find really offensive to say as there are also many biologically born women that may not be able to have a baby or don’t have menstruation cycles because of medical reasons or whatever.
if a woman has a hysterectomy she doesn’t stop being a woman. You are not more woman if you have stronger menstrual pains than others.
So there is an actual study about this?! I’d love to look into it deeper for sure. Do you happen to have any links/articles I can read/research?
there definitely are scientifically papers and articles on this topic! But I am currently only on my phone and don’t have any links saved. I will see if I find something on this on the weekend though!
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that’s actually something I find really offensive to say as there are also many biologically born women that may not be able to have a baby or don’t have menstruation cycles because of medical reasons or whatever.
if a woman has a hysterectomy she doesn’t stop being a woman. You are not more woman if you have stronger menstrual pains than others.
Such a great point! I mean, my menstrual pains are more of a pain in the ass if anything. I don’t think that because I suffer in pain every single month makes me a woman. I’m a woman because I’m a woman and I say I am.
there definitely are scientifically papers and articles on this topic! But I am currently only on my phone and don’t have any links saved. I will see if I find something on this on the weekend though!
Thank you!! I’m looking forward to it ^_^ 💜
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Being trans is... Complicated. For the most part, we were just born or developed wrong, it's honestly a bit hard to tell which is which but they lead to the same conclusion: We aren't the gender we should be. Which comes with a lot of problems, depending on when you come out.
But, it's not really a matter of choosing, we just... Are. I pretended to be a guy for over a decade, and even though that was my biology it wasn't me. I actually never developed any ability to handle testosterone, so anger management was a pretty huge deal. The whole time I tried to suppress my transness and live normally, but I knew it was BS of the highest order, so I came out. And then we get to the tricky part of being biologically trans.
Short version? It's in the hormones, not the genetalia. Hormone Replacement Therapy is what changes your gender, not surgery. Many trans people need surgery to feel comfortable with themselves, but it's not what changes your biological gender. Most trans people seek to change their biological gender (body) to better match their identity, but the degree of change is entirely up to the person. I don't really have any plans myself, surgery is expensive and I'm not wealthy.
And something else I want to mention is the WHO making it insanely ######### hard for people to transition. I got lucky, my gp has a trans daughter and didn't put me through all of that horrible, awful psychological testing and the year-or-years-long waiting list just to be allowed to recieve HRT. But that's what happens to most trans people. They officially give up because they're treated so poorly by people that are supposed to help them.
I don't want to leave it like that, that's not a very happy note, so I'll say this: we are who we are, and we can't change that. But thankfully society is beginning to accept us, and even though some of us are really different it's becoming easier and easier to simply exist. Also, yay hormones. Being able to change your biological gender is the best.
Edit: Also, a lot of us tend to struggle with sexuality as well, especially those of us that choose to not get surgery. Thankfully, society is also becoming more accepting on that front, too.
Edit edit: also, I am super open and actually had to remove some details about my specific biology because I didn't want to upset anyone. You can totally ask anything, so long as you have an open mind.
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Why caring about other's opinions ? Just be who you want and love who you want
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@Venzhas This wasn’t a matter of caring about opinions. Its about educating myself.
@MadLordJack Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and defining what it means to be trans. I really appreciate and honor your journey although, with you permission and comfortability of course, I’d love to hear more about your journey.
I never knew it was more of a hormone thing than a genitalia thing. I know that some members of the trans community don’t mind it, while others do & thats what makes it such a hiccup for me.
I guess because I was uneducated and grew up during a generation where the world was so ignorant to what exactly trans women and men actually go through and weren’t willing to allow them to speak up for themselves, it kind of blinded me. I’m so happy this generation is so vocal and accepting. And despite what the LGBTQIA+ have gone through, its amazing how open and welcoming the community is to people. Again, thank you so much 💜 I really appreciate your post.
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Because as nice a sentiment as that is, those other people with opinions are often the ones in power.
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I'm actually from a rural town in a sparsely populated country that, despite a progressive government, doesn't have particularly progressive citizens outside of its biggest cities. I know exactly what it's like to not know. I actually had the opportunity to go on hormone blockers before puberty, but there was just no real education there and asking questions was... Ahem, "frowned upon".
Plus, I'm really lucky that I prefer girls, because queer woman are really accepting.
Although being trans comes with a lot of downsides, most of which other women will totally recognise and that have little to do with social acceptance. The most annoying things for me are having to shave every day with suddenly very sensitive skin, sudden (admittedly light) acne, requiring a bra, and remembering to wear seatbelts properly. Which as I have learnt, is very, very important. Like, that is so ######### important. I wish ladies talked about that more often because holy crap is that annoying. Also, like, just sensitive everything. My skin is so soft now.
Edit: any specific details you want to know? I can't speak for all trans people, or even for all trans women, but I can share my specific experiences.
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this study talks about transgender and gender-nonconforming people in different states of adolescence and focuses more on the psychology side.
This paper talks more about brain developement, genes and biology of ones gender.
I only read the abstracts as of now I have to admit though :)
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I actually had the opportunity to go on hormone blockers before puberty, but there was just no real education there and asking questions was... Ahem, "frowned upon".
That seems so frustrating and closed-off. To not be able to get information or ask the needed questions you want answers to, thats why I'm so happy this generations day & age everything is just soo involving and open. You can be whatever you want to be, get answers to anything that people may have found "weird/unacceptable" back in the day.
The most annoying things for me are having to shave every day with suddenly very sensitive skin, sudden (admittedly light) acne, requiring a bra, and remembering to wear seatbelts properly. Which as I have learnt, is very, very important. Like, that is so [BAD WORD] important. I wish ladies talked about that more often because holy crap is that annoying. Also, like, just sensitive everything.
Lol, seatbelts are a pain in the ass xD especially for women with large breasts. Also, yes shaving is so annoying to keep up with. I will say, you should try waxing, as it lasts longer and if you trim your hair before, its way less painful.
Thank you for sharing your experience! <3 I wish you nothing but happiness and prosperity on your journey! @MadLordJack
I saw this super late! D;
Thank you so much for this @Mooks <3
You're a darling.
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Cis really?
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What?
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I just wanted to throw in something else that I feel is very important but which doesn't seem to be said that often: being trans doesn't mean conforming to gender stereotypes. I know that everyone who's written in this thread understands that, but for the people that are just perusing and have gotten this far: Not all women wear skirts and makeup and act feminine. That doesn't change regardless of her birth gender.
Also, skirts and makeup rock.
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Generally, gentle implies you handle disagreement well without getting defensive, snarky or rude.
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Just as a friendly reminder that this is not true in America and any first world country. A look at social media proves how accepting it is... and how the admins immediately shut down anyone who might try to actually scrutinize things and not troll.
Third world countries like Iran (and China) though, yup.
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No, it isn't. Do you have any idea how much discrimination we face? How hard it suddenly becomes to simply get a job? How often you have pricks screaming slurs as they drive past? Do you have any idea how little people even understand? How many medical professionals ignore their colleagues on "moral grounds"? How much people invent preposterous nonsense about us?
No. You don't. Because you're one of them, as clearly evidenced by your above rant.
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Ah the indirect comments have made a return I see
Do I gotta start paying rent considering how much I live in your head or?
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English football fans have literally been beating up black people in the streets because someone missed a penalty but yeah everything is rainbows and acceptance for everyone everywhere
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Oh, I was talking to them on correcting their definitions. Not you.
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English? ... You mean, like... Britain?
Because if you meant America, I don't know why you said English like this.
Also not what I was saying, and 100% a goalpost move. The subject is LGBT people, not race.
I understand that you're seeing red and are extremely defensive to any opinion that isn't 110% in your favor, but try and remain sensible. You post smart takes in everything game related.
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Yes, I do mean Britain. Why would I mean America when England were the team playing in the Euro finals?
And you were talking about how first world countries are all acceptance. They definitely aren't. Just look at domestic abuse cases as soon as England lost, or street violence in London on that night.
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Like I said, indirects. Comments made towards someone without actually addressing them. As the king of passive aggressive behaviour you can't even attempt to bullshit your way through that because it's exactly what you did.
It's an obsession at this point honestly
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Alright then. Just checking.
I think I can also claim that you're... "playing semantics" at this moment. But sure. So, even if this happened, they're most likely a minority, and even if that's the majority (it isn't, given the Trump blimp and everything with that) that's still one country.
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I mean, if I addressed you and gave some very valid reasons to dislike you (Here's a friendly, non-hostile hint... I did basic research into what "flamboyant homosexual" means... you can piece together what I value now, right? And just in case... no, the answer is not "not being LGBT".)... plus making sure I shut down any "gentle" views that people have of you, it would be off-topic and count as derailment.
Like I said, it was not aimed at you at all, I was correcting them. I'm literally telling you the truth. Want me to cross my heart? (This is not sarcasm.)
EDIT: Also... just in case, remember the last topic? Remember the exact reason why it was shut down? What you're doing now is considered derailment, I would imagine. Again, it was not aimed at you, I was addressing their definitions.
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It's funny how much you claim I'm ignorant when I'm the openly trans woman and you're ignoring me.
Edit: and just because discrimination is illegal doesn't mean it isn't extremely widespread and often violent.
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I haven't ignored you at all. But you have sidestepped the majority of what I wrote. Just because you're LGBT does not make you immune to being scrutinized.
And just because someone doesn't agree with you, does not mean you're "being ignored". Please use proper definitions.
"Edit: and just because discrimination is illegal doesn't mean it isn't extremely widespread and often violent."
Alrighty then. Can you prove LGBT people are specifically tar- Actually... hmm, there ARE those studies that also have problems with them, you could easily pull out a source...
I will happily admit this is the case for Iran, where homosexuality is stoned, but you will need to prove this is "widespread and often violent" in first world countries. It sounds to me like you need to step outside, stop looking at the media magnifying isolated hate incidents, and look at the streets surrounding you, and see no LGBT people being attacked.
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There was literally law passed in America recently where doctors can legally refuse LGBT individuals health care in certain states.
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Its great you are looking into the stuff, we all start somewhere.
I recommend Philosophy Tube & Contrapoints on Youtube for some more insights.
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Im trans myself. Im not a super detailed talker, so i'll just keep it simple. Trans men and women, in every aspect, are the gender they transition to. "Biology" in the argumentative sense, is primarily used as a cruel zinger to spite trans folk and other people under that umbrella. Trans folk, nonbinary folk, etc etc very much want to be adressed as, and expect to be treated as the gender they identify as. Theres a lot of hubbub about it from cis people since they aren't in that space, and thusly are often pretty confused about what being trans entails. But basically the simplest way to go about it is just refer to them like you would any other man/woman. They'll appreciate it a ton!
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