Dead hard is the literal definition of a Crutch Perk
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What does that make Bamboozle and spirit fury?
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Perks are just crutches. Play every game perkless so you don't use a crutch.
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Bloodlust 1 start after 15s, I wouldn't call it a great chase if the killer get to BL 1. Now if he goes to BL 2 or 3 that's an other story.
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Dead Hard is for chads only
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In the hands of an optimal looper it can be infuriating but I don't think its OP.
Honestly, its hated because it isn't used for its purpsoe. Its clearly suppoed so be used to eat hits during chases and rescue attempts but 90% of players use it for a speed boost at loops. I wouldn't mind seeing a version with the speed boost removed honestly. Just a second or second and a half of invulnerability with a clear visual effect.
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Hyperbole does not strengthen your argument. EVERY survivor doesn't use it. I don't track perks used by other players when I solo survivor, but it is probably way closer to 40-50% in red ranks that use it. As a killer I would rather survivors use DH (Which I like to call fail hard) because they make way more mistakes with that then they do with SB or Lithe. I just find it funny that so many "killer mains" have issues with DH. I have played over 1800 hours as killer and it is my fav exhaustion perk to go against (aside from smash hit...which let's be real almost no one uses).
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15 seconds without taking a hit? Thats rare those days, you would be impressed
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Disagree with a perk being valued by what you have to do to earn it. Fire up, Bitter Murmur, Tinkerer, Rancor, Lethal Pursuer, Corrupt Intervention are all perks that value the killer with zero input or effort from the player aside from adding it to their build. Survivors have a ton of these perks also, but only DH is being talked about. On these forums the community is just steadily going after every useful perk on either side. It's ridiculous. This perk makes it harder for me to win? Nerf it.
Post edited by feechima on3 -
You literally just countered your own argument both instances you gave you would have downed the player if you would have just....... waited it out.
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If people are using it for distance then what if we take away the dash and simply gives you endurance status for like 3 seconds?
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"Doesn't degrade the theory behind the perk and how it can be used in some cases. If they made it not a dash but just I frames I would be fine, as then it can be baited."
So without the .5 immunity frame you can bait it but with the immunity frame you can't? That's dishonest at best.
You know what's the counter to DH? Don't lunge the moment you know you can hit and wait like 1s. There, unless he's right by a pallet or window you'll hit him regardless, heck if you play it well you might get a hit on the window vault animation or right as the survivor drop the pallet on your head.
A well placed Lithe, Balance Landing or Sprint Burst can extend the chase by the same amount of time if not more. The only difference is it's not right in your face. The fact DH is right in your face is what make it feel worst.
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These survivor mains saying “just bait it out” really make me laugh. I’m sorry to say but Dead Hard is a skill-less crutch that gives you a free health state. I know it hurts to hear but it’s just facts.
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totems.
now you: what do i, as the Killer, have to deal with someone using Dead Hard to extend their loops?
And i am not referring to someone using DH do dodge a hit in a dead zone or anything like that, i mean someone looping me until they get greedy / fall for one of my mindgames and then pressing E to quickly get back to safety immediately.
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Someone who have Lithe will just vault a pallet or window and go vroum vroum, what's the difference with DH? Also depending on who you play you can mitigate DH way more than any of the other exhaustion perk.
Take cow tree on Rotten Fields. It's in a corner and if you force the survivor in the right direction with or without DH he won't make it to an other loop. Same can be said about other loops.
Bubba doesn't struggle vs DH, Bamboozle a nearby window force a really fast pallet drop and voila you got a free down. With Clown, Bamboozle, force the pallet, speed boost on you, slow bottle on the survivor and he doesn't make it to an other loop. With Demo you can bait it but if you play it well you can Shred the pallet as soon as the survivor DH and drop it, so again it's a none issue with him. Deathsligner and other range killer doesn't struggle vs DH except maybe Huntress in some situation.
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I think that Smash-Hit should give you a 2 second speed boost for throwing a pallet and 4 for stunning a killer.
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I know, it's crazy. Different perks do different things! Nerf them all.
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That would be even worse hell no...
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Ruin and Pop rely on the killer doing well, can also be countered.
Tinkerer can be countered.
NOED can be countered.
Dead hard is a free second chance without counter in Loops.
I also do not like Noed, but please stop the sluzzy like baiting. Its embaressing.
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Tinkerer cannot be countered, it actives at 70% no matter what, period. Also, dead hard isn’t going to do much if the survivor is injured two seconds into the chase. Most survivors use dead hard proactively, not reactively, extending loops, as using it for avoiding hits often ends up in being exhausted on the ground. I’m not even a dead hard user, but it sounds like you’re the one baiting.
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I don't think i-frames should exist in this game.
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Well said.
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If you think any killer except maybe bubba can "counter" dead hard, you are playing a whole different game. You can use dh safely to reach a window or a pallet OR try to dodge a hit. Hitting a survivor 10 seconds after they used dh is not a "counter". Any player with decent skill will not deadhard into a deadzone.
I think Sprint burst is the best exhaustion perk but dh is just the definition of crutch.
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"It can't be countered" isn't an argument. How do you counter Open Handed, Lithe, Balanced Landing, Plunders Instinct, Tinkerer, etc etc. Perks are meant to help a player, they don't exist so they can be countered?
Also, how is Dead Hard a free second chance. You don't get an entire health state just because the killer missed you with an attack, lol. Also, it's not free, you have to spend endurance.
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"Help you" can mean a lot of things.
Smash Hit gives you a lot of extra value if you make an outplay.
Bond lets you make informed decisions and avoid certain mistakes.
Unbreakable lets you recover from a guaranteed loss if and only if the killer steps into its trap.
Then there's Dead Hard.
- Fuck up distance judgements in a loop?
- ######### up distance judgements transitioning between tiles?
- Get straight up outplayed at a tile?
- Run into a dead end tile with multiple bear traps?
Oh well. Press E. Despite how the chase should have ended right there, it now gets to go on for an extra 30-40 seconds because you were able to make it to that long wall jungle gym, cow tree, or other tile.
Yes, you can bait it out, but that only works if the survivor is straight up using the perk wrong. If they're relying on being able to dead hard in the open, they're being stupid. You use this perk to guarantee you make it to a pallet/window when you shouldn't, and when used in this way it is a third health state that the killer can't do anything about.
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Where's your data showing Dead Hard is extending chase times more than other exhaustion perks?
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Do you have any idea how often Dead Hard just does not work? Seriously? If BBQ just flat out didn't work as often as DH fails survivors, killers mains would be rioting. It makes me laugh every time someone has a tantrum over DH when it works maybe 50% of the time if you're lucky.
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Just because someone disagrees with that opinion doesn’t mean they are a survivor main.
I play killer 50% of my time on DBD, mostly 90% these days and you do learn to bait it out. Do you do that in every chase? No, of course not. But when you do bait it out, which means you didn’t swing and they thought you were going to, thus didn’t gain the initial distance they thought they were going to. That’s what baiting it out means, and it is a strat against it.
The perk does what it’s suppose to do if the survivor has timed it well. I say that because many times survivors underestimate their distance and end up too far from a pallet or run into a wall.
This has been my personal experience in red ranked trials. Quite frankly I would rather a thousand times face survivors with DH than a different perk like SB. A perk that has killed my pressure many times, due to its extremely safe design. Nothing better than having an injured survivor pop a gen in your face the middle of nowhere, while you have a stack of Pop that you can no longer use.
In the appropriate scenarios many perks can become obnoxious.
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My god, there's an actual well reasoned person on these forums. You must have taken a wrong turn somewhere in the badlands!
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it's worse with ranged killers.
because I try to mind game them by pretending to shoot with deathslinger so I bait out their dead hard THEN shoot and I trigger an I frame.
so they didn't dodge my attack, the attack physically touched them but they get to walk away because of an iframe.
So which is it a dodge button or invincible button? It shouldn't be both.
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Just someone with way too many hours into this game. XD
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I don't get this whole "no counterplay" thing. Perks are not supposed to have counterplay lol. How do you counter Fire Up? Just don't do gens?
Dead Hard is supposed to give extra time in chase at the cost of a perk slot. Just like Ruin, Pop, Surge, Corrupt, etc are supposed to give free extra time for map pressure.
I main killer and I never got frustrated against DH. I'd rather have 4 DHs than 4 SBs. Funny how this perk exists since 2017 but only now I see people complaining about it. DH used to be way stronger when maps actually had more safe loops.
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How do you counter Tinkerer?
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No problem :)
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I was watching an OTZ game where at least 3 of them had it and literally escaped as a result of it. But I genuinely feel those situations are rare and I would rather play against that than DS. Deadhard is well designed in my opinion and killers are designed to catch survivors, so often they need to use it not because they made a mistake, but to delay the inevitable. DS requires you to be useless for a minute and the people who run it have no issue figuring that out, rofl.
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You and I are on the same page. I cannot stress enough how annoying SB is to go against. You can’t work on a gen in the killer’s face with DH, as efficiently as if you had SB because you are one sprint burst safe to get away.
The fact that you have to be injured to be able to use DH vs being able to use SB healthy or injured pretty much seals the deal for me as to how powerful SB is.
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Then propose something instead of just wanting the perk to be removed..
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If you swing and miss on a dead hard then you've been baited. If the survivor make it to a pallet but you break it immediately he didn't gain much distance (eg, Bubba, Blight, Demo etc.)and in those instance any other exhaustion perk would have buy the survivor the same time if not more.
Bubba completely bypass DH with his chainsaw and you can insta down on T&L with him. Deathsligner can easily bait the dead hard, not even hard. Demo with Shred, if you aim properly, will hit the survivor regardless. Good luck using Dead Hard vs a Spirit. Nurse can bait it too and at worst it take you two more blink. Nemesis & Executioner could care less that you make it to a window or pallet. A good Clown isn't bothered much either. Trickster & Huntress doesn't give a ######### either about Dead Hard, the best you can do vs Huntress is using the immunity. Doctor can just shock you if he know you have DH.
Jesus it's almost as if the vast majority of the killer can deal with Dead Hard without much issue provided you know them a little bit.
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Did I say the others don't do that?
No.
They all do it, but Dead Hard does it in a terrible, terrible way.
Head On, Smash Hit, and Adrenaline are balanced because you have to earn their effects (through a successful locker juke, a pallet outplay, or by winning outright with three perks).
Sprint Burst is problematic because it counters stealth killers too hard and all but negates initial positioning as a relevant factor. That said, it's so easy to bait out that it's not necessarily the end of the world for a lot of killers (Pig is gonna have an aneurism, but Blight scoffs at it).
Lithe and Balanced Landing give similar raw distance to SB, but don't provide benefits right from the start, so it's fine. Problematic, yes, but less so, and if the "hold W meta" is ever addressed these perks would indirectly be made 100% fine.
Dead Hard cannot be forcibly burned (you need to commit to a chase through its natural lifetime to get that far), doesn't require good positioning (just face a pallet/window and you're good), and isn't something you really need to earn. You get into a situation where you should go down, and then you just don't.
Aside from bugs, user error, and some dubious builds (anybody gonna run Mindbreaker to sometimes kinda counter a perk that some survivors might be running?) it has no weaknesses. Low risk, and the highest reward out of any perk in the game, effectively giving you a bonus health state. Now remember you can use this 3+ times a match and everyone can run it.
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I dont see a suggestion to fix it at all, just a complaint. Like 97% of all threads complaining, its either just crying about something or theres a suggestion so lazy it qualifies for welfare.
What do you want to do about it? you change DH, you have to change No Mither. Because then trying to get David's adept would be just a trash achievement. I firmly believe you guys are complaining over the latest stats. Where was all this complaining when DS had a target on its back for the last 3 years, more than half the game's lifespan?
People call anything that they think is an unfair advantage, cheating. The forum is filled with this type of thread. Maybe partake in some critical thinking and hash out a suggestion that balances it. Because while I do NOT use exhaustion perks(unless it calls for it in a rift challenge), I fully see the use and point of Dead Hard. Granted, when I started you could actually use the perk properly and not just sit on the floor exhausted like a Labrador after playing in the park :\
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The majority of the killer cast has some way to counter DH. Deathslinger can shoot you faster than you can react. Pyramid Head's shockwave is way longer than a DH. Demogorgon's shred is wayyyyy longer than a DH. Doctor can shut down any pallet/window you DH to. If there are multiple Hag traps around DH will do nothing. I can go on and on about how DH can easily be made useless.
And then there are the perks/specific add-ons that completely counter it. Huntress's add-on, Blood Echo, and Mindbreaker.
I listed all of these ways you can counter Dead Hard (and there's a lot more I didn't list) but it just seems like you don't want to do any of those and just ignore them. You want to get every free hit on someone with DH without actually doing any work.
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But Dead Hard is the same, ffs. Go use Dead Hard in the middle of nowhere and see where that lead you. One add some time to a loop in particular, the other allow you to bring the killer 1 or 2 tiles away. Lithe require a window or dropped pallet nearby to be effective. Dead Hard require a window or pallet nearby while injured to be effective. How is that different?
When used properly Lithe, Sprint Burst & Balance Landing allow you get away from the killer without the need of a pallet, Dead Hard extend the usefulness of a loop. Dead Hard might force you a mind game on the killer's side but that's about it.
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Dead Hard is important for a couple reasons other than just, extending chase or making the next loop.
It's one of the only ways to possibly escape the basement.
It allows players to make risky plays while injured with a chance to escape. For example, playing a Sabotage / Breakout build or generally trying to make save plays, flashlights, ect. Often times the "saves" don't pan out, bad timing or, the Killer is running carry perks and Breakout never pays off. So all you've really done is given the Killer another free chase after he just downed someone and, plays like this can throw the game. Without Dead Hard risky plastyles would be very punishing and they would be attempted even less. Driving the game into an even more Meta state as everyone switches to using Sprint Burst and we all just hold W.
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i mean sure, as long as they fix the map designs
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Make it deactivate after certain amount of uses. 2 maybe 3 times
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Bruh not getting downed is literally like a 3rd health state or at the very least like styptic agent... what do you even mean.
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Just because you lack the creativity of playing around tinkerer it does not mean there is nothing you can do. Knowing the Killer has tinkerer opens up MANY possibilities. For example: If you know the killer is a frequent checker after Tinkerer triggers, just leave the gen at 70-75% and hide. You will make the killer waste so much time, especially if he interrupted a chase because of it. You can also block the gen with repressed alliance to counter a tinkerer into pop. I'll admit its not a direct counter as in you can do something that the perks does nothing, but you can for sure turn it against the killer. If you are in a SWF you can also exactly know if you could just finish the gen or not.
There is literally NOTHING you can do against dead hard. No mindgames, no killer power can stop you from using it to be safe. There is no interactivity whatsoever, its just you knowing you will loose 20-30 seconds more (if you are lucky) of time. And this happens every time. Lets be nice and say DH extends a chase for 20 seconds on average in perfect use. Lets also even be nicer and say this happens maybe 2 or 3 times in a game, because maybe not all Survivors have it or just not many more situations happen were DH is useful like that. Thats at the very least 40-60 seconds of more chase time. There are 3 other survivors meaning you get 120-180 seconds of gen time for completely free and just because of one perk. Thats 2 gens done for free and i am not even beeing overly drastic with these numbers. Most killer perks are not even close to giving you that much time. No regression perk is even close to beeing that strong on average when in comes to time gain. Ruin beeing up the whole game on a killer with great pressure MIGHT be able to, but ruin beeing up the whole game is rare. Its not extreme rare but it is rare. Survivors extending chases with DH is not. Its extremely common.
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You mean that perk that can be removed before it ever procs? With now like 3 different perks, as well as maps, to assist with it's removal?
But hey, why run one of those perks when you could just run Dead Hard, right?
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I mean quite frankly, I don’t care about DH. I almost always use balanced. I just think it’s ludicrous that a perk that leaves you exhausted on the floor 30% of the time can never be truly the strongest in the game.
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Dead Hard is fine. It's a fair perk, that gains distance much like other exhaustion perks. It's just as situational as the rest EXCEPT for Sprint Burst, which can be used whenever if you know how to use it properly. Yes, there are more situations where DH can be used, but there's plenty of situations where DH won't buy nearly as much time as a decent Lithe or Balanced Landing. That's ignoring the times you end up exhausted on the ground. People always say it's skill-less, but a well timed dead hard is far more useful than a poorly timed one. Just see all the times people say "nice dead hard" sarcastically. DH won't do nearly as much damage in a dead zone as... you guessed it, Sprint Burst, which doesn't care about your dead zone.
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Dead Hard - an exhaustion perk that gives you free distance and iframes for...what? What did you do to earn it exactly? Literally nothing. In fact, you might even call it a reward for failure.
Ruin and Tinkerer? Fair enough, which is why I don't use the two together (I actually never use ruin or any hex perk, not a fan of them), but even THOSE have to have their value earned from them more than dead hard does.
Pop? You quite literally have to earn even the chance to use it. By hitting a survivor twice and hooking them. No comparison here.
NOED? You could make an argument for this, but NOED is a second chance. Killers don't have a lot of unearned second chances. NOED might be the only one. The entire survivor meta is unearned second chances aside from things like Smash Hit and Deliverance. NOED has a huge downside in that it can disappear before it ever gets any use, though.
If we're going to start comparing perks on either side, it's not going to go well for you.
At the end of the day, it may be an inconvenient truth, and survivors fear of not actually being as good as they think they are plays a huge rule here, but things like Dead Hard, and most exhaustion perks in general, are unhealthy for the game in the same way Bloodlust is (which needs to go as well, btw). Exhaustion perks are quite literally survivor slowdowns. But with even less earning requirement.
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