why do survivor mains complain so much about tunnleing
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I'm sorry, but did you just complain about Urban Evasion and Iron Will? UE is useless against killers other than Hag, Huntress, Trickster, and Deathslinger.
IW I can kind of understand but it is by no means an unfair perk, there are still plenty of ways to track an injured survivor outside of grunts of pain.
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Also DS only takes effect if you're actually tunnelling now, if you don't like dealing with it, you might want to consider not tunnelling.
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when i complain a UE i mean the people who sit a the back of the map only coming out to do a gen also for IW i use hearing a lot in gameplay personally and playind spirit when they have IW is impossable
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Just because it's annoying doesnt mean it stops you from playing the game, which is exactly what tunneling does since you die really quick with no BP and depip.
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how many ######### times have i heard this argument ds slows the pace of the game down way to much and can win a game sometimes
otz made a vid on it i fully agree with him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzGqGjhZd1s
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Same reason killer mains complain so much about looping. They are bad at countering it.
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Because finishing a round with not even 2000 bp and not standing a chance is irritating. Plus I don't think anyone likes feeling like someone is out to get them. Yeah it's just a video game, but it's still a crappy feeling when I just want to play to have fun and don't like treating killers or other players poorly. Like don't target me, I don't wish you any harm, you know?
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so does gen rushing which i gave as context to excuce tunneling
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If you think playing against IW as Spirit is impossible then you mustn't play her very much, even a half decent Spirit knows how to listen for audio cues other than grunts of pain.
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Like I said, have their cake and eat it too. They don't want to be chased, they want to be chased when it suits them, and for the killer to leave them alone when it doesn't. The killer as an opposing player with their own agency, goals, and strategies, this game being PvP, none of that matters. Things can only happen to them if and when they say so, and only if they end in a way that is advantageous to them. Everything else be damned.
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i will give u that i dont play her much but that is a core machanic of her that can be completly rid of
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And a half decent Spirit can still perform well even when that mechanic is removed.
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so i have to be god teir with her to counter 1 perk fair
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Yes, survivor want to be chased when it suits them. Of course.
It is a game, they want to have fun, and so does the killer.
Some here defend this "strategy" because of genrush. It is simply a form of whataboutism. Genrush might be a problem and so is tunneling. Arguing that the one thing is fine for the game because the other thin excists is a very short sided thought.
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I just went against a rank 1 tunneling ttv blight lol, this is pretty much dbd now and you rarely get an enjoyable match anymore. I remember back in 2019 where most matches were fun and the odd bad one, but now it's the complete opposite.
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Well, yeah, different context can make enjoyable things less enjoyable. I find getting a massage from a trained professional fun, less so if it’s a stranger on the bus. Getting chased is fun when the experience is engaging and feels “fair”, that’s why survivors enjoy not being chased immediately off the hook and why killers enjoy not chasing through a mass of ultra safe pallets and windows. This doesn’t make someone a hypocrite, it’s extremely normal and logical to feel that way.
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Play survivor, you might see just why.
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Tunneling isn't hard to do. If the killer wants you out of the game they can do it with ease, which sucks because hitting skill checks on the hook isn't what anybody considers fun. Don't know what brainless killers people run into if they find you off the hook and you're running them for over 30 seconds they're bad. And no survivors don't just appear at generators and start working on them.
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I don’t mean this in a rude way but this discussion seems kind of pointless to me. Personally I think tunneling is completely valid and can make a huge difference in a match. But the simple fact is that in this situation you’re killing 1 person as fast as possible. Expecting people not to get annoyed by being quickly removed from a game that they typically have to wait a long time for is kind of ridiculous.
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i have never heard/complained about looping ever it is a part of the game
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Killers have always been able to win dbd matches without tunneling, survivors literally cannot win without doing gens unless a key is involved and even then gens are still required depending on how far into the match this are.
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False equivalency.
Killers win by KILLING. Of which tunneling helps.
Just like Survivors win by doing gens, of which going back to an 80% gen helps.
But if we use your logic; Survivors can win by doing every 0% gen when chased off an 80% gen. Instead of tunneling that 80% gen.
Survivors onto using fallacies to push that 'don't tunnel' propaganda.
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I see what you're saying, but killers can regress gens, there have been perks to do that for years, you can't regain hooks there is a massive difference because an 80% gen may not be 80% when you go back to it, however you can't get a hook back, ever.
The point still stands.
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And that means...what, exactly? That Killers should spread the hooks around and play less optimally because Survivors can't undo hook states?
I mean, you're right; Killers CAN win without tunneling. They can also win without perks, if the player is skilled enough.
But as long as my opponents (Survivors) are going to play with effective strats and perks; so am I. That includes tunneling the weakest link so I slow down gen speeds.🤷♂️
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Play as you want, the point stands, killers can and always have been able to win without tunneling, you are free to do so, survivors don't have the choice whether they do gens or not, they kind of have to.
Tunneling to win is a choice that you are free to make, survivors don't really have a choice whether they do gens or not to win, they're kinda required apart from niche key situations or last man getting hatch.
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No survivor likes to be tunneled, because they end up dying faster and getting less points. Also, it's not fun, for the survivor, of course.
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It sucks that the game is designed in such a way that removing a player from the match as fast as possible is the best way to slow down gens. That's bad game design. It's not fun, and the game should be designed in such a way as to ensure its players get to participate and have fun. Instead, the game puts it on the players to be inefficient to get more points and help create a fun experience. That's ridiculous, you can't have it so that efficiently achieving your win condition earns fewer points, you can't expect players to care about their opposition's fun.
Tunneling a survivor out as fast as possible can be an efficient way to slow down gen progress even when the team's not gen rushing. Right now, I play survivor, my teammates don't actually seem to understand what gens are, but I get tunneled out so quick I earn fewer than 5k points and there's like at most one gen done. I wouldn't mind so much if cakes had a condition on them, like if the person who burned them earns fewer than 15k Bloodpoints then no one gets the multiplier and the cake is returned to inventory. But no, instead I'm waiting in the long killer queues and I'm going to trash my survivors' cakes when I prestige, because screw it, I've been convinced to add to the killer queues and make them even longer.
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You can't equate tunneling to doing gens. Tunneling is not the Killer's win state; Killing is.
Tunneling is a TACTIC towards winning. Same as Survivors going for a half-completed gen. I mean, the Killer does not really have a choice either; he has to kill to win.
And again; everyone will try their best to win. This 'don't tunnel' malarky is just one side imposing restrictions on their opponent using pretty much every excuse they can think of. It's just 'Stop trying so hard.' with guilt trips 'Survivors feel bad when you Kill them'.
Which is what ticks me off; I'm tired of being demonized by people who can't take a loss. I'm tired of those here who insult the other side for using <Killer/perk/tactic> because they don't like it, or think they deserve wins. Or, most under-handedly of all, just want to force their opponent to play badly for easier matches.
Until Survivors look at a half-completed gen and say 'Nah. I'm going to give the Killer more time; I'm doing a new gen'; they can honestly shut up about 'tunneling'. It's just the Killer's version of doing an already worked on gen.
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doing gens isn't the survivors win state, completing them is.
What exactly is your point here besides trying to twist everything, play how you want buddy, you're arguing with someone who doesn't give a toss about how people but can understand the frustration with tunneling but don't understand how killers can complain about survivors doing their only objective like it's a negative thing lmao.
Keep going brother, your paragraphs justifying tunneling is fine, I just don't want to read it because i don't care.
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It is a paradox
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My point is that neither should be complained about, because both are just the opposing team playing efficiently.
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Nah, their win state is escaping. Ask them if they feel like winners after I 4k off a NOED/Blood Warden snowball. Rofl.
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I'll rephrase, their win state relies on them completing gens, but weird flex I guess lmao.
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Tunneling is inefficient. Your argument is that doing a generator that's 80% is more efficient than doing a generator that's at 0%, which is not always true. If the killer is fiercely defending that gen, you have little chance of completing it, so starting the 0% gen is more efficient.
Tunneling, on the other hand, is almost always inefficient. You have four survivors. Three of which are healthy with zero hooks, one of which is injured and has been hooked once. Tunneling the injured survivor into their second hook is a waste of time since you're not putting any pressure on the other three survivors.
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Tunneling=Gen Rushing both focus on finishing the objective as quick as possible and have enough counters.
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But you're removing one Survivor from the game, thus slowing Survivor's overall ability to do gens, and lowering them from being in 4 place at once to 3 places.
Which means chasing 2 Survivors is no longer 1/2 the team but 2/3rds the team. They go from having 2 being chased and 2 on gens to 2 being chased and 1 on gens.
I mean, if I let the hooked Survivor live, I'm still putting pressure on ONE new Survivor, without the ability to quickly eliminate them if/when I catch them.
Sorry but no matter how you try to paint it; removing someone from the game is the most efficient way to play it. It reduces everything Survivors can do, from gens to healing. Which puts massive pressure on Survivors.
Or are you seriously going to argue that spreading out the hooks is somehow better than removing a body from the board ASAP?
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I'm arguing that if the survivor can run you long enough, your strategy isn't efficient anymore; it's a waste of time.
If they get you down to 2 gens because you've wasted all your time tunneling one person out of the game, there's a good chance the 3 remaining survivors are going to escape. If you're lucky, you walk away with 2 kills. If you're unlucky, you walk away with 1 kill.
It doesn't matter if you've reduced the overall team efficiency if they're quick to smash out gens. Ergo, tunneling is extremely inefficient and relies on short chases to be anywhere near efficient.
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There was a match in Wreck shop vs Huntress, after seeing a Clau down right after her first hook, I rush Gen real hard (ignore totem,chest, wandering around afraided of Terror radius because I know Huntress will not chase me if we see each other). That explains why the Gen push extreme fast if Killer tunnels.
After Clau got unhooked from 2nd hook, other guys keep pushing Gen and leave Clau being chased by Huntress again (1 Gen left). I threw myself while Clau being carried on death hook, I success. I got my 1st hook, all Gen done. Other 2 open Gate and we escape, Clau still die though
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See but in that game everyone agrees to play for fun, where as in DBD the survivors say the killer should play for fun while they play to win.
Until survivors decide "nah I'm not gonna pop this gen since its unfun. I'm gonna work on another gen" they should stop asking killers to not tunnel. That's the killer working to finish one of their already progressed kill the same way survivors work to finish their already progressed gen.
Both sides could play for fun, but survivors don't want to. Its not only the killers decision its on the survivors too.
It is absolutely a design flaw in DBD.
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Ok. That does not make the tactic inefficient for everyone, every time.
You're taking one example, which is not guaranteed to happen every time, and saying 'If this can happen once, the tactic is always bad'.
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It's far from being a one-off. It can and will happen fairly consistently against any survivor that's halfway decent at looping.
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Then it's up to the Killer to use his brain and decide if chasing the wounded person is worth it.
But you cannot say 'This happens sometimes, so the tactic is always bad'. You're really trying hard to convince Killers to stop tunneling with a bad faith argument.
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Are you sure no survivors likes it? Because many say being chased is the only fun part of surviving. Also some brings OoO and starts t-bagging simply because they want to get chased/tunneled so the rest can be left alone doing gens.
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for the same reason that killer mains complain so much about gen rushing
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Tunnelling is an effective and efficient strategy, and while I usually try not to tunnel as killer because I have no problem being successful without it, I have no issue with it as survivor in and of itself. As has been pointed out in this thread, the tunnelled survivor still gets the same amount of chases that they otherwise would have gotten, in which they can use their skills to try and outplay the killer and possibly survive, or at least help their team survive. Chases are the most fun and engaging part of the game, being engaged constantly by the killer in chase play is great.
There are some undesirable things that correlate with tunnelling, and while some of them should be remedied by BHVR, others can be remedied by players themselves:
- The survivors that are not being tunnelled don't get engaged in chase play until that survivor is out of the round. - While generally true, other survivors can and in fact often should try to bodyblock for the tunnelled survivor, even risk their own lives to protect them. Players should consider their health and hook states as resources to be used in a round; giving a hook life or two in order to keep another survivor in the round that is on death hook is a tactical play. So if someone is being tunnelled, try whether you can't intervene, taking hits to help the tunnelled survivor in their chases or potentially even making the killer chase and/or hook you instead. And there's of course other stuff you can do to try and help too, such as attempt flashlight, pallet, bodyblock and sabo saves, For The People, Styptic, Syringe, Head On plays, and more.
- The survivor that is being tunnelled does not get a lot of Bloodpoints. - True and definitely something undesirable. I think BHVR should uncap point categories such that players can reach the 32k BP cap even by mostly only scoring in one category, such as the Boldness category.
- The survivor that is being tunnelled has less health states. - Technically true. Since a survivor is still injured after being unhooked, they only get 4 health states total (2 in the first chase, 1 in the two consecutive chases respectively), rather than the potential 6 health states a survivor can have if they get healed after being unhooked. I think it would be a healthy change for the game if survivors were healthy after being unhooked, not least because that way tunnelling automatically becomes less of an obviously optimal thing to do. That said, the game in its current state is not really balanced for most killer characters to chase every survivor for 6 health states. So this change would have to go along with other killer buffs.
- The survivor that is being tunnelled does not actually get into a fair chase. - This is my only real issue with tunnelling, personally. It is possible for the killer to down a survivor after the unhook before that survivor even has the chance to physically make it anywhere. That is an anti-gameplay element of tunnelling that I think should be remedied. There are perks that address the issue (Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike), but I think there should rather be base-game remedies. Such as increasing the duration of the invincibility window that already exists upon being unhooked. However, this goes more into the direction of remedies against camping, and in that regard I actually do think BHVR should do a lot more to combat camping and instead buff killers in other areas.
Another issue with tunnelling that can't however be balanced for or remedied in a real way is the fact that bad survivor players can get tunnelled out very quickly, and that bad survivors even help the killer do so by going for bad unhooks, running into the killer, not using good perks or not making good use of the perks, not taking hits for other survivors, etc. But you cannot balance for people's lack of skills and smarts, and so while it is definitely unfortunate that killer players can abuse weak links and bad plays by tunnelling someone out within a minute or two, this is part of the game and can only be addressed by a better matchmaking system that does not put blatant weak links into matches with killers that have no qualms abusing them.
Post edited by zarr on0
