A killer main's thoughts on the state of solo-que survivor, game balance and the health of the game.

Johnagon_Infinity
Johnagon_Infinity Member Posts: 178
edited August 2021 in General Discussions

Hey, Dead by Daylight. So, a little about me, I'm a rank 1 killer/survivor. I have a little over 2k hours in this game and I'm currently at about devotion rank 7, almost 8. I would consider myself a killer main, with most of those 2k hours, 80% have been killer. I currently have only 2 killers left to P3.

I'd like to consider myself to be a decent, fair killer -- with the amount of hours I've played, I should hope, at least. I have quite a few mind-games up my sleeve, I know my main killer's capabilities well, and I know their weaknesses even better. I can identify good survivors quickly, identify strong areas of the map quickly, figure which chases are worth it, and when I need to break-away to focus on the more important objective. I don't camp or tunnel unless the survivor positively deserves it.

My rules are: if you've been hooked I will not touch you again unless you've been fully healed or you get back on a generator. If you make distance to heal up and get back in the game, I respect it. If you do any objective based/altruistic action, you're back in the game. I'll usually give hatch to the last player if they played well and I accept losses when I play poorly. I don't tunnel or camp to make-up for the fact that I got looped for 3 gens because I wasn't good enough. I don't use Ruin or Devour Hope because I feel like they're overkill on your average solo-que game.

I decided to get the rank 1 survivor achievement solo, because I'd been told all this time how hard being a killer was, and how easy being a survivor is. The game is survivor sided after all, right? Wrong. I don't feel that way anymore. After having achieved rank 1 survivor solo-que, I have to say: the game is hopelessly imbalanced when it comes to solo-que survivor.

To start, let's address the biggest issue: Tunneling and camping are over-powered. Tunneling and camping are over-powered and there is little counter to them. This is especially true for solo-que. When you camp someone to death, you are denying their chance to counter-play any of your mind-games. You are denying them any chance to get better at the game, and you're denying them any possible pips/points they might've otherwise earned. You are taking the least skillful route to win the game. You can be a new, unskilled Nurse who only lands maybe 1/3rd of her blink attacks, yet if you tunnel and camp -- especially against solo-que -- you can win easily. There's a streamer with 760+ win streak where all he does is tunnel and camp. I did have it linked, but it was removed. Sorry.

Yep, you heard that right. 760+ wins in a row because he chooses to abuse this massive unfair doctrine. Some of them aren't even very good killers. If you watch them play, they don't pull off any skillful plays that make me think "Wow, that mind-game was brilliant." or "They really outplayed and correctly predicted the survivor's movements even before the survivor knew their own movements." Whereas, if you watch someone like Otzdarva who will usually not camp or tunnel, you can learn a lot and are dazzled by his skill. That really is what it comes down to: skill.

I was playing against a famous streamer a little while ago. When I played against him, I was face-camped to death on my first hook, while two of my teammates tried to save me. No, they didn't try and loop the killer around me, he camped and they both came to get the save because it's solo-que, and there's poor coordination. It sucked, and when I went into his stream, no one cared that he tunneled when there were 4-gens up because he just said "They're a SWF, I can tell." Even though there were 2 console players in the group.

Immediately after that game, I got put into a match with a Huntress that positively annihilated me. He landed some absurd, across the map shots, hit me through the gap on the magic bus window, and didn't need to camp or tunnel to 4k. I felt like watermelon full of hamburger meat in a lion enclosure. The guy was seriously good. I even stuck around after the match to compliment his skill. Objectively speaking, I got even fewer points that game than I did in my game against the streamer. So, why was that? Why was it that when I was out-classed beyond belief, I had more fun getting annihilated than when someone used a cheap mechanic to win?

Imagine that you're playing Chess. And your opponent predicts one of your early-game movements and he takes out an important piece of your Chess roster. He takes out a piece that you hadn't intended to lose yet. Good job, your opponent bested your early game. But that's okay, because you still have your eye on the mid-to-late game. Before you can hit the game-clock to start your next move, your opponent is already declared to be the winner and the game is over. You get no more moves. And to add insult to injury, he smacks the gameboard off the table and the judges think this is acceptable behavior. That's essentially what tunneling is, and it's why survivors get so immeasurably angry with the game and the killer. Being tunneled unfairly punishes victim and rewards the perpetrator.

Or look at someone who is just amazingly skillful at one given killer, like CoconutRTS or SupaAlf. When you watch them play, you're just blown away by their predictions. The guy in the linked stream just flat-out sucks. He can down one survivor, and then he uses that snowball the entire game by tunneling them. Wow, good job. Who can't do that?

Just bring decisive strike*.* You stunned the killer for 5 seconds, and during that time you made it to your next safe-pallet. Yay. The killer is going to break that pallet, you'll get a little more distance, maybe vault a window, or, if you're not a very skillful survivor, you're dead. And then the killer only has to deal with 3 survivors, which is infinitely more easy to juggle than 4. Not only that, but the chance is, no one else on your team is running DS anymore because it was nerfed significantly. So, the killer can now tunnel you and then tunnel his next hook and then he's basically won the game. Even the greatest survivors are only as good as their nearest pallet or window. GG EZ.

There is a counter to being tunneled/camped, just have your teammates slam out gens so the killer throw the game chasing one person. More often than not, especially in solo-que, this DOESN'T work. Why? A number of reasons, first of all. You have to convey to your solo-que teammates, without Kindred, that you're being camped/tunneled, and that they need to spread out on generators. So, basically, that's impossible. Not only that, but each one of your 3 remaining teammates needs to find 3 different generators and complete them all without being pressured off by the killer.

If the killer has Ruin, and he is able to pressure someone off a generator near his hook, this plan is foiled. If the killer tunnels his first hook that he gets while there are still 5 generators up, this plan is foiled. Just bring BT! If the killer can count to 12, this plan is foiled. If the survivors are not all coordinated, this plan is foiled.

Like it or not, the camping and tunneling are meta. It is so widespread, and killers keep getting buffed while survivors hardly get any buffs, that it's clear that camping/tunneling are to be expected. The power creep on killers has been pernicious, and there are a number of meta-perks that are not balanced for your average red-rank solo-que game. So if camping and tunneling are part of the meta, and we can't prevent them, how can it be made more bearable?

I mean, I expect camping/tunneling so much, that if the killer hooks someone and immediately leaves, he likely has Hex: Devour Hope, and I'm usually right. This brings me to my next point: the power creep on killer has made the current state of the game unhealthy. Yep, a killer main just told you that he thinks killers have an unfair advantage against solo-que.

They keep buffing killers while solo-que remains stagnant, and introducing new, powerful meta perks that can just further be abused. The amount of games I have lost to Ruin and Devour Hope against a mediocre killer is absurd. You should lose because you've been bested, not because you out-perked the other team.

My average solo-que game looks like this: spawn in, tap a gen. Killer has ruin. Spend 2-3 minutes trying to find ruin. Find ruin, destroy ruin, killer probably has 2-3 hooks by this point. Maybe I get a generator done, maybe the killer is mad that I broke his ruin and he tunnels me. If I don't get tunneled, I'll usually get rescued off the hook, and I use my Inner Strength to heal myself -- because getting healed in solo-que is impossible without a self-heal. If we manage to get 3 generators done, usually the playable map will now be so small, that none of my other teammates are doing generators. They're off looting chests, or skulking around, and doing anything other than a generator. The killer is able to pressure enough survivors at once, that nothing productive gets done and by this point usually has someone dead and then the game falls apart. People give up and the game ends. Loading into a match, I never expect to win and if I do, I oftentimes feel like the killer wasn't very good and didn't belong in the red ranks.

Now, with all of that being said, survivors, there is the survivor version of "tunneling". Which is to say there is an abusable mechanic that the survivors can engage in that leaves the killer no other real alternative than to tunnel. And that is "gen-rushing." Now, I hear this term thrown around a lot with no real clear definition. Gen rushing is when survivors spread out on generators, 1 person per-gen, and before the killer has his first down 3 generators are close to being complete/already done. In this scenario, the killer's only recourse is to either lose the game, or tunnel and camp his first kill. Maybe he's somehow able to recover the game if the survivors make some huge blunder, but more often than not, that's not the case. More often than not, the survivors will crank the last 2 generators out, and they'll get a 3-4 man escape and then t-bag the killer and chide him in the post-game chat. I know this, because I've been there. And in that scenario, I will camp and tunnel every time. I don't want to play that way, but there are few other likely scenarios in which I will win.

But we're just playing the objective efficiently. So am I when I tunnel and camp. See my point? What happens between the last 3 generators is when the game is truly played. If you strip the killer of that, you've given him little other options to salvage the game.

But the game spawned all 4 survivors separated and on different gens. Yep, sometimes that happens. The game has so much RNG that it's absurd. Spawns need a thorough revamp, and part of the requirements is that, more often than not, you should spawn with someone else, always. If you choose to spread out on generators after you spawn in, that's on you.

As a killer, losing sucks. Far worse than losing as a survivor. If you lose as a killer all the mistakes are squarely on your shoulders. Yes, you get compensated with good BP, but you still feel demoralized. This is exponentially worse when the survivors decide to be toxic and t-bag as well as chide and deride you in the post-game chat. The amount of times I've been told to kill myself over this one game is far too great. I’ve had to turn off comments on my steam profile because of this community. The chat filter helped, but not a lot. T-bagging is still humiliating, and it's a universal sign of arrogance that makes everyone feel bad. And if you are one of the survivors that t-bags every killer, just be aware that you're conditioning a killer who is now going to stack the most meta-builds he possibly can, while camping and tunneling everyone, because losing is such a toxic environment.

The amount of times I've seen people t-bag someone who is truly trying to learn a new killer is disheartening. I'll usually try and offer myself up as free kill to the killer if this happens because I've been there so much. Engaging in that toxic gameplay is just going to breed a killer who doesn't play any other killer other than his main, uses the most potent perk mixture he can (Ruin, NOED, Devour Hope etc.) and will play ruthlessly, all the time. Because that's a better alternative than being humiliated. If the killer doesn't camp or tunnel, plays fairly and loses, be kind to him.

So, please, survivors, stop doing this. I've made a point to thank all killers who don't camp or tunnel and play a fair game. That's it. If they 4k, but do it well, I thank them. I suggest you do the same.

Okay, I'm not just going to complain without offering a solution. If we're going to balance the game around killers camping and tunneling, which is inherently not fun, then we need to change the pip system to reflect that. In it's current state, when/if you get tunneled, you'll likely leave the match with 5-6k points if you're lucky, and then you'll de-pip. Basically, you can wait 4-5 minutes in que, only to get tunneled out instantly and then sent right back to the front of the que. That is not fun, and it makes people stop playing this game dead in their tracks.

If we're going to allow camping/tunneling to be part of the core spirit of the game, then the rewards for being tunneled need to reflect that. In the same way that killers get basekit addons as a buff, Kindred should be basekit for all survivors. The cap for chase points should include time spent on hook. Time spent on hook, struggling and being within the killer's terror radius should also be accelerated when on hook. If you spend most of your time hooked, in the killer's terror radius, and your first hook is your last hook, or you get unhooked, then downed immediately again, and put back on the hook, then the blood-point reward should, bare minimum be 15k blood-points and you shouldn't lose or gain any pips. Why that 15k blood-points? That's the average number you can expect to earn if you were to complete about a generator and a half, get chased 3 times and hooked 3 times. That is, of course, if we accept the narrative that camping and tunneling are an expected, maybe even encouraged part of the gameplay.

Post edited by Johnagon_Infinity on
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Comments

  • Sherry
    Sherry Member Posts: 227

    Interesting observations. I agree with most of your point of view. That's kind of how I feel about camping, tunneling and slugging. I just want to be able to play the game and when killers do that, it's really frustrating.

  • Carth
    Carth Member Posts: 1,182

    I do agree with some of your points but disagree with your solution as well as some of the other points you make.

    You say getting run for 3 gens on the first chase means you're bad but acknowledge further down that good survivors who maximize gen efficiency(lets be real, this doesnt even require swf/comms to do) will always get 3 gens done before the first hook or be extremely close to 3 gens popping. Which is it?

    As far as camping and tunneling being unfun I agree. I don't think extra BP nor pips changes this though, it's a very weak consolation prize that does nothing to alleviate how ######### the experience is. Same thing as a killer getting gen rushed by swf, you could give me 1 million blood points for that game it still doesn't change the fact that it was terrible, same thing with getting camped/tunneled.

    Then lastly, you propose a solution for auto balancing this out with killers but for survivors it's just 'pls dont do that'?

  • konchok
    konchok Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 1,719

    I'm a killer main with 75 percent of my time playing killer.

    I agree with you The only place where survivors and killers are matched (This is only with the 3 strongest killers) is in comp and comp is it's own culture of BS, for example it's common for those individuals to cheat as both killers and survivors by changing their color values and having vertically stretched resolutions. This completely changes what works and doesn't work. For example, mind-games will not work on most loops because they can see over the loops. However, during regular ranked game-play Killers are at a massive advantage.

    I disagree that camping is OP because there are quite a few counters to camping, but I do feel that tunneling is over-powered. If a killer can remove a survivor from the game while 2 gens are remaining, that game is lost for survivors. And it's a bit BS when that survivor killed at 2 gens is the only survivor that's been hooked.

    I would like to see this game mature into something where skill is rewarded as both killer and survivor. And to me that means removing some of the cheesier strategies. I really do feel that tunneling one survivor should cost you the game.


    An idea that I had would be a mechanic where survivors can repair generators faster if they've been unhooked and are healthy. Once hooked they lose the bonus. Generator times, may need slight tweaks. But the idea is simple, if you only go after a single survivor, then the remaining survivors will have enough momentum to win the game even without that survivor. But if the killer spreads damage and hooks that bonus is quickly removed.

  • Troman
    Troman Member Posts: 264
    edited August 2021

    Good points. Tunneling and camping is really unhealthy for the game. It's not Killers' fault, it's BHVR that must address these issues.

    One thing I don't agree with is that gen rush is the same as tunneling/camping. It is your choice as a killer if you camp and tunnel, yes, it's allowed and it's a "valid" strategy. As a survivor you don't have an option to gen rush or not. You just spawn, find a gen and start repairing it, you have no other choice. It would be dumb to come to a gen and then wait 30 seconds doing nothing to make sure you are not "gen rushing". Survivors have no control over "gen rush", especially in solo que, since solo survivors can't communicate and decide to gen rush, they are just doing there objective the ONLY possible way. If it is an SWF and they bring several BNPs then yes, you can call it gen rush.

    Still, I think DEVs should revive sabotage, not in the form it used to be after release of DBD, it shouldn't be possible to sabotage that many hooks. 1-2 hooks per survivor should be ok, hooks should stay broken for longer, it should take more time to sabotage a hook and should give more BP to survivors. That would prolong the games and we would see less "gen rushing".

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    Survivor strength is at a peak right now, failure is a result of mistakes and little else.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    Nope been playing for a long time. Solo has only gotten easier for me and haven't been easier than this outside of bugs, pallet vacuums, infinites, and insta-blinds.

    If you think Survivors are weak, something must be up with how you approach the variety of killers.

  • AnnaEliza365
    AnnaEliza365 Member Posts: 141

    I agree with all of these. Part of the problem is anybody who says something like "wow, that match was so unfun" is considered salty. I have never lost a few games a killer, and then wanted to go solo-que as survivor. I have, however, lost some games as survivor and went to play killer instead.

  • ukenicky
    ukenicky Member Posts: 1,352

    Love your post! It gives me hope, I'm currently trying to reach rank 1 as killer without utilizing camping and tunneling. Only time I really slug is on Plague but we won't talk about that LOL

    But yeah I pretty much agree on all the points you hit. Survivor spawns desperately need looked at. I run Corrupt Intervention to bypass this problem and it works splendidly but dedicating an entire perk slot to alleviate said issue is.. Meh

  • WaveyTrey
    WaveyTrey Member Posts: 650
    edited August 2021

    The thing is as killer you’re the β€œDungeon Master” so you play by your own rules. There’s no wrong/right way to play, and people making imaginary rules kills the game. That’s why the devs take their time fixing actual problems.

    I stopped caring about all of that and started playing more for sheer fun. Even if I lose more often sometimes (I know losing can be frustrating sometimes). For instance my new Trickster has Rancor, No Way Out, Remember Me, and Whispers. I’ll tunnel/camp (Typically whoever’s the obsession) to lure all other survivors into getting hooked in the bullied victims place so that I always get the 4 tokens for No Way Out. As some survivors are just really good. They won’t get caught fast enough, or when you need to be hooked. By end game I try to ensure that there are 3 players left, 1 being the obsession. Then I seek to kill the obsession via Rancor when No Way Out triggers. After that it takes all day to open the door because of Remember Me. Whispers tells me that you’re around somewhere, and Trickster can pelt survivors with his knives before they can ever open the door because if Remember Me. Dirty? Yes. Fun? YES!!

    Trickster is hated so much imo because he’s a killer that’s closer to that of a survivor. As seen my his many aesthetics. Some killers are meant to be played for just fun. Not for winning. That’s why β€œtiers” are a thing. If you want to win soooo badly use Spirit, Freddy, or something. πŸ‘€

  • Zozzy
    Zozzy Member Posts: 4,759

    This entire post skips over something that was added late and then ignored ever since. SWF on discord.

    As for solo q being weak.. Depends what time of day and where in the world you live. If i play in the early hours when survivor queue is instant then more often then not the team is a pack of spuds that can't run the killer for 10 seconds. If i play in the afternoon when survivor has a 5 minute wait time then the teams are usually better and people know how to hold M1 on a generator.

    Everyone says location doesn't matter, but i can't believe that after watching what rank 1 survivors do against one killer streamer vs what they do against another from a different part of the world.

  • Alphasoul05
    Alphasoul05 Member Posts: 601
    edited August 2021

    That's a lot of words just to say camping and tunneling sucks. Why are all of your points survivor points, if I might ask? Do you believe that killers have no problems, and survivors are fine? I guess the best question I could ask to make what you're saying relevant is do you disagree that second chance perks are bad for the game as a whole, regardless of the skill of the people using them?

    I don't think a solution exists for camping and tunneling, and I think they're things that if punished incorrectly, will simply remove something you should be able to do. You're effectively giving the survivors a power creep in the form of greed. If someone wants to camp or tunnel, even if they get derank (favors them) or less BP, they're going to do it, because they're bad or because the survivors are very efficient and you need one out of the game.

    Do you really believe some of the best killers don't often say things like "I need to get someone out of the game quick" or that they don't potentially eat a DS to get someone out? They do, it's just rare because good survivors are rare.

  • OrionQc24
    OrionQc24 Member Posts: 283

    I think his point was that it’s op for the person being tunneled and camp. Bc like he said there’s nothing much you can do. Even DS and BT aren’t designed to go through heavy tunneling.

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,245

    Dont acknowledge swf plus comms as the normal state of the game.

    Solo isnt weak. Having a predetermined team changes your approach to the game (swf) ... and comms just outright break the intended (commless) balance.

  • EntitySpawn
    EntitySpawn Member Posts: 4,233

    Because alot of people lie about the roles they play. OP might not be but you cant tell. Too often I see "killer mains" go on about how you dont need to do X etc. But in reality the game isn't balanced for higher rank, camping and tunneling can be a strat, I dont care as survivor (I use DS and can loop) so if I get tunneled the killer loses. Then again everyone's experience is different, I dont verse solos often as killer I tend to run into very serious players to the point they still DC to give their friend hatch lol. But to your original point people lie on forums to try get their point across more

  • unluckycombo
    unluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    ...Genuine question, but like... do you play Solo Survivor?? Or at the very least duo queues?

    Because I play a lot of Survivor, and I promise you that it's so, so weak that it's not even funny.

    Giving survivors base kit Kindred would merely allow for more coordination when (and only when) Survivors are hooked. In a same way that totem counter base kit would buff Solo Survivors, they still wouldn't be as strong as a SWF because they're still missing a lot of information. For instance, you might see people on gens with Kindred- but you don't know their progress, nor do you know their perks. Just like how a base totem counter wouldn't let you know what totems have been done or by who.

    It literally just gives Survivors an actual chance to be coordinated, and they would still have plenty of opportunities to get outplayed. This is a discussion for basekit Kindred afterall, not old Exhaustion coming back.

  • rha
    rha Member Posts: 419

    I found a simple solution for myself. I just don't run all that "cheap OP survivor second chance meta perks" (killer view) that are "basically required to get to play the game against red rank killers" (my survivor view) anymore. Whenever a killer plays in a way that I can't counter without these perks, I'm just throwing the game and let the killer kill me without resistance because why would I waste 5 more minutes of my time if I can just lose, particularly in solo queue where nobody does gens when killer facecamps. They want to tunnel me out of the game? Fine, do it and let me go into the next one.

    Those games are so frequent against red rank killers (at least for my system, my region and the time I play) that I easily depip to rank 9. There I stop playing survivor until next rank reset and I'm back at 13, and then I start running the builds I want to - like Head On, Q&Q, Deception, Blast Mine - and have a ton of fun playing survivor, because I can actually play the bloody game without using the same build every time. I can make safe hook saves without BT because killers below red ranks actually leave the hook when no other survivor is obviously around, I am only very rarely getting tunnelled out of the game, and I don't need Kindred because the killers aren't so oppressively strong that it doesn't matter if the group is a bit uncoordinated. Matches there are somewhat more balanced, it's usually 2-3 survivors dead in the end and games are thrilling because both sides still have a chance of winning for a long time, while red rank solo queue often enough means one dead and two dead on hook by the time one gen is done (typically 100% by myself).

  • Kalinikta
    Kalinikta Member Posts: 709
    edited August 2021

    Congratulations mister 2k killer main, that you are experienced enough to avoid the scenario on which you can not tunnel and camp. I play at red ranks and have 350 hours when I play killer usually the first 2 matches I give survivors some slack and play "nice" and you know what the result is? Gens fly! You claim tunneling and camping are Over Powered, while they are simply included in the way to play at high ranks if you aren't at a different level than the majority of your opponents. You cannot do it mindlessly either, it is timing, situational and not always the right call... just the same as slugging.

    Then when I solo queue as guess what I do that as well, it is simply a RNG aspect on your team. Many don't use simple logic in their decision making, most of the tunneling situations are created by survivors and just because you ignore them when you play killer that is the reality.

    Skill matters, but you cannot look at x K hour mains and go like, see them... they are what killers should be else they should be crushed! Most survivors aren't held to those standards, you need to be an Aryun quality survivor?

    Should kindred be base kit, maybe... because it closes the gap between solo and SWF a bit, which would make balancing the game easier. Yet most games even what is considered solo has a duo or even a trio in the mix. Solo queue is not just 4 solos, you have them mixed with SWF teams! Killers face the majority of the time some form of teamwork.

    Killers cannot assume they are against 4 solos, they have to assume SWF teamplay or have a 5 min match. Just like survivors need to assume that killers will try and kill them as quickly as possible when given the chance. That is the life at red ranks.

  • Adeloo
    Adeloo Member Posts: 1,448

    Wow that is a long thread but a very interesting one.

    I agree that Kindred should be basekit, at least for solo queue survivors. It's simple but it would make a huge difference.

    ----

    As for the "gen rushing" forcing to camp/tunnel i also agree, that seeing gens fly because 3 survivors worked on 3 generators is frustrating, and camping/tunneling feels like the only solution to build a bit of pressure at this state of the game. I recently suggested that :

    • Ruin no longer have a 200% decay repair speed but the normal 0.25 charge/s and KICKING/Surge/Oppression get the 200%
    • Doing the 1st gen takes 25% longer, the 2nd one 15% longer, the 3rd one 5%, the 4th doesn't change and the 5th one is 5% faster

    That would give killer move time to build pressure in the early game, and would reward survivor for getting those first 3 gens. It would make camping/tunneling less of a last resort strategy.

    ----

    For the camping, we agreed on Kindred being basekit. Something could also be done to the perk Camaraderie to actually also work for yourself, so if you are coming close to a hooked survivor, the timer pauses.

    For the tunneling, we agree that DS is no longer good enough against "true" tunneling, and should at least get 2 uses (1 after each unhook)

    ----

    Being camped/tunneled isn't fun, like you said, it usually comes with a small amount of BP and no pip. What could be done is while being chased, the survivor would still get 50% of the BP earnt by his mates from repairing generators (named "Keeping the killer busy") + like you said, having the killer in close proximity on hook could be a new action in the Altruistic category, as you are (not by choice but still) give your mates enough time to repair gens and escape, could be named "Anything for the team"

  • DuneT
    DuneT Member Posts: 88

    In theory yes. In practice Kindred only works its magic, so to speak, if these other 3 Muppets you get randomly assigned as fellow survivors look at the auras shown and notice what is going on. And act accordingly.


    Experience shows the majority in (my) solo-queue don't.

  • ich_hΓ€ng_mal_rum
    ich_hΓ€ng_mal_rum Member Posts: 435

    @Johnagon_Infinity

    I think you make some good points in your post. Most interesting to me is the spawn issue, which I also think should be urgently revised. It's a bit weird that for example the offerings weren't swapped, since it's not desirable for a killer to start all survivors separately from each other, just as vice versa that survivors shouldn't start all together.

    The t-bagging I personally find uninteresting, as well as click click with flashlights or the like. The fact is that these survivors do nothing, have no real impact on the game and thus actually support the killer.

    The only thing I really see different is your "solution" for tunneling and camping. The one who had virtually no chance to simply give some kind of pain compensation in the form of bloodpoints, I think is the wrong way, because it changes neither the game mechanics nor the fun factor. It would simply be a kind of pain money.

    I'm in favor of an approach that gives the survivors realistic counters that give them an opportunity in such cases and really bring something. For example, why not increase the ds stun so the survivor can get away and maybe hide?

    Overall, I think it's time to review various game mechanics and change them if necessary. And preferably in open exchange with the community.

  • Axx
    Axx Member Posts: 392

    Solo queue is mostly bad due to survivors and not the killer. If you are a capable survivor player you will notice this easily. Every survivor player has the opportunity to play well, they just have to try to learn and improve. If more people played better, solo queue would be much better. Just because people can't use the survivor role's potential, doesn't mean the game is killer sided. If the game was killer sided, I and other people would have no issue on any killer vs competent survivors, but that is not the case. Try to go vs a 4 stack of good players as Clown, or Pig. You will struggle and lose badly because those players are able to play the survivor role to its full potential.

  • Johnagon_Infinity
    Johnagon_Infinity Member Posts: 178

    If the offerings were swapped, where killers could spawn survivors together, and survivors could choose to spawn apart, that could very, very easily be abused by both sides. It would absolutely suck. To be honest, I think the offerings should just be removed all together. Otherwise, we'd see a lot of Lethal Pursuer Nurses/Bubbas who get 4k's in about 1 minute 30 seconds flat.

  • Johnagon_Infinity
    Johnagon_Infinity Member Posts: 178

    I do agree that, back when infinites existed that was a real problem. And any killer that has sub 200 hours is probably going to get bullied unless they're packing the most meta-perk build available. The game has a steep, steep learning curve and a very generous time commitment to understand the nuances. However, there's essentially 3 levels of asymmetricity we're addressing now. Killer, solo and SWF. That's where my point lies. Solo Que survivors need more information; the pip system should be adjusted. The game has evolved.

  • Razorbeam
    Razorbeam Member Posts: 594

    I'm surprised you thought the game was harder for killer than solo que survivor, it's pretty well known difficulty goes swf > killer > solo q survivor.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,667
    edited August 2021

    Yeah I did not understand the post. The post complains about Hex:Ruin and Hex:Devour hope? Like what, devour hope hasn't change in years ever since it came out and Hex:Ruin has been same for long time. Both of the perks are hex perks which can be removed and taken away from the killer.

    "killers keep getting buffed while survivors hardly get any buffs"

    "The power creep on killers has been pernicious"

    For which killers? Freddy changes? Billy changes? the Stridor nerf directed at Spirit? The trickster changes in which they state they want improve him than end up making the killer worse? The clown changes that effectively are same as old clown.

    The only killer that improved significantly were Wraith and Leatherface. Technically Doctor but he got reworked. More killers are becoming worse than becoming better.

    Tunneling is countered by being good at the chase as survivor. face camping is countered by being efficicient on generators as the killer is not applying any kill pressure on other survivors and instead afk at the hook.

  • madradfox
    madradfox Member Posts: 190

    Tunneling is countered by being good at the chase as survivor.

    No. Being good at chase revolves around knowing the mechanics and taking advantage of each other's relative positioning. You don't win chases by waiting for the killer to be right on top of you and then actively trying to outrun them. You win chases by making sure that positional gap between you and the killer never gets small enough that your every maneuver will effectively put you inside of their striking distance. Best loopers always know where they currently are in terms of map positioning, as well as the next safe spot to go to after their current tile gets used up.


    On the other hand, tunneling immediately forces the unhooked survivor to already be in the weakest relative position at the start of the chase. When you are getting tunneled, the killer already knows exactly where you are, you are already injured, bleeding and making extra noise. If you happen to already be zoned out and you have no Endurance there won't be anything you can do, as you obviously won't be able to afford to take a hit to gain speed and distance. Even if you do get Endurance and are great at looping, at least one of your routes away the hook will already be strewn with pallets you happened to drop earlier.


    At that point, all veteran survivors know that their only way to escape the trial is to extend this chase - and the next one that will be in store after their next unhook - long enough for their teammates to finish the remaining gens. If there are still 3-4 gens left, and you are getting tunneled by a reasonably competent killer, there is practically nothing that can be done to ensure your survival. Having other survivors take hits for you will force them away from doing gens, force them to heal before trying to rescue later on, and in general will just help the killer apply more passive pressure in chases.

  • HaunterofShadows
    HaunterofShadows Member Posts: 4,092
    edited August 2021

    Ok here's my 2 cents. I do agree with the smaller pictures in this post like kindred being basekit and ds having 2 uses. But when it comes to the big picture of killers are op, unfair, easy wins and they're being catered to is where I have problems and must disagree. They are not any of those things.

  • Johnagon_Infinity
    Johnagon_Infinity Member Posts: 178

    And there is nothing more to say because what was said was true. Articulate and well put. If you watch any of Zubatlel's streams, he's a wonderful survivor, perhaps among the best. Yet, if he's being tunneled straight-off hook, it's game over 10 out of 10 times.

  • Apexgnifrums
    Apexgnifrums Member Posts: 335

    lmao those people need to be put into DbD 1.0.0 and say that again. The amount of (justified) nerfs survivors got is beyond comprehension. Pages long list of nerfs for survivors and buffs for killers. It was never easier than today playing and winning as Killer.

  • Apexgnifrums
    Apexgnifrums Member Posts: 335

    you are full of bs mate. Your Killer bias is coming out.

  • HaunterofShadows
    HaunterofShadows Member Posts: 4,092

    Easy winning for killer. Anybody who thinks either role is easy does not play enough of that role. Plus you forgot to mention all the killer nerfs that happened

  • stikyard
    stikyard Member Posts: 526

    Balance cannot be achieved. Just look at how much tournament competitive matches need to control the situational aspects of the game to try make a fair competition.

    Play for fun and try not to be a jerk is about all you can do. I know that's asking a lot.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    You can call it whatever you want. I've been playing a long time and past two years I have been primarily a solo Survivor main.

    Strong/skilled Survivors know how to handle killers even to the point of being comfortable with in the face bully tactics. If players feel Survivors are weak, I'd suggest; take a step back and analysis to whom your consistently dying, how personal mistakes gave them the advantage, and if your load outs are addressing the shortcomings of your play style.

    Yeah I enjoy killer now and again, but I'm not looking to play for anything other than enjoyment. Most enjoyable aspect right now for me is being the pain putting pressure on the killer.

  • DarKaron
    DarKaron Member Posts: 615

    So here's the thing I've noticed:

    You say how Solos suffer against Killers, and I'm pretty sure every Killer main with more than 200 hours by now knows this as fact. Solo sucks. Period.

    But the thing is, the food chain essentially goes SWF>Killer>Solo Queue.

    A good SWF will absolutely stomp any Killer through efficiency alone, and any Killer can rip through most Solos.

  • JohnnyB87
    JohnnyB87 Member Posts: 96

    Most of the tourneys I've seen or heard of extremely nerf the survivors. There all killer sided tourneys.

  • Apexgnifrums
    Apexgnifrums Member Posts: 335

    playsing since 2016, 5k hours played 50/50 and never struggled much as killer

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    Ahhh, I see I was mistaken. Here I thought you might engage in actual discussion, but alas your only interested in expressing your dissatisfaction with other people's opinions based on your feelings. I was hopeful you might provide some insight to the contrary rather than blanket accusations.

    But that second "full of BS" πŸ‘..πŸ‘..πŸ‘, cut me to the core that did, don't know how I will ever recover πŸ˜†

  • The_Daydreamer
    The_Daydreamer Member Posts: 744

    I agree with this. Survivors / Maps had to be changed / nerfed. And it is not like they just received nerfs. It is just the overwhelming experience with nerfs for Survivors and buffs for certain killers which felt unbalanced. Right now I agree that survivors are at the weakest, but that does not mean that they are weak.

    I mainly play Solo Q and I can only recommend playing with Kindred. I know it does not solve the main issue, but this way you give your whole team so much information. As a veteran player I can really just recommend going for Information / Knowledge. Information is key! Knowing where your mates are, where the killer is, where totems are, where paletts are, which windows are open, where the exit gates have spawned is so cruel in this game. It won't help you to get tunneled. But it will help your teammates / yourself to take right option or simply to see which options are avaible for you.

    At the end I really hope that many people are gonna start to think both ways and stop taking only one side. We have so many only Killer / Survivor Mains especially Streamers that are constantly bashing the other side and don't give them credit nor realize which problems the other ones have to face. Feels so sad. Especially with certain people discredit your statement / opinion with just "Tell me you are a [Survivor Main] / [Killer Main] without telling me..".

  • Johnagon_Infinity
    Johnagon_Infinity Member Posts: 178

    The end point I hope people pull away from my post is that survivors shouldn't lose pips for being camped and tunneled, and Kindred should be basekit. Also, if they rewarded the survivor for being tunneled, because, well tunneling is meta, then it would make the game feel a lot better.

  • PyramidFootLicker
    PyramidFootLicker Member Posts: 106

    I've been wanting to post something like this for a long time, although not with the suggestions but just about the solo que experience in general which is why I've stopped playing survivor unless I pretty much start playing with friends. Even with friends theres not much to do about camping/tunneling.