Hey. Bhvr. What did you do to Dead Dawg Saloon?
Um. Yeah I'm just gonna say it.
In a heavily time managed role, breaking all the walls seems pretty... how you say... extremely awful? Especially with the new 2/2 system.
Seriously. So, for those who don't know, they changed the fun stupid pointless bedroom in Dead Dowg's saloon and created an infinite.
Yeah.
Okay, I thought the goal was to originally diverge away from infinites, because of how heavily unbalanced they were, however they're making a come back.
Why on God's green shattering earth are they making a comeback? I thought we learned our lessons about infinites.
But, you can counter this infinite by breaking walls, every wall in the saloon, the one at the killer shack and some other closer walls to avoid making the infinite.
So in other words, like 75% of walls on that map. It's a pretty big amount. In fact. A huge chunk of time wasted by breaking all the walls on that saloon. There's like 8 walls in that general vicinity, each one takes about 2.6 seconds with a normal kick. So that's 8 × 2.6, which is about 20.8 seconds. And that's without calculating how many seconds it takes our happy asses to get around to each wall and then eventually the gen. This is pretty bad decision.
So we lost a gen already, since it takes 80 seconds to complete by YOURSELF without any modifiers. Now you add those modifiers and see how many they can complete fast.
Or
We purposely lose that chase in particular, to chase someone else who could also potentially use that.
I don't think m1 killers should suffer for this, m1 killers whom can't slowdown a chase.
Look.. I know this seems like a lot of "whataboutism" but, I'm a believer of Murphy's Law.
"If something can go wrong. It will go wrong."
And this change seems like something that's pretty wrong.
I know I'm bitching a lot. But. Wouldn't it be better to.. I don't know... NOT make an infinite and instead focuse on reworking the map for the better on both sides instead of needing a decent perk to help get through an already bad situation? Like, a perk to deal with no decent loops, or perks to stop too many GOOD loops?
Examples being: Sacrificial Pit and Coldwind
Doesn't that at least make more sense than forcing either side to make awful plays to at least have a chance to deal with either side?
This feels like a one step forward two step back situation.
Maybe I'm wrong, who knows. Tell me in the comments, I've had a few people skim a post and just say whatever so I kind of expect it to happen again.
Here's a youtube link with a friend of mine. Apologies for my awful sounding voice, I've been getting more and more sick recently and I have no clue why.
Comments
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100%
Tested that loop today in a KYF. If you land fast vaults, it's a literal god loop in a main building that was already stupid strong.
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does that mean I can't keep sending myself to dead dawg to get killer rift challenges done in dbd? #########
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Not the complaints about dead dawg being survivor sided when it’s the most killer sided map in the game… lol.
Any good windows on the map make up for the fact that the pallets are absolute trash.
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What? Why would they change that?
Instead of making more good loops for survivors near those gallows they went and made an already strong building even stronger? Now there's even less reason for killers to go inside the saloon, everyone will now just 3 gen those gallows...
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Can we get some screenshots?
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Going by speculation out of my #########, knowing bhvr's propensity to rely on stats and using lazy fixes, I suppose the map has a high kill rate. Simply opening walls/windows to re-create a strong loop that the killer can remove via breaking walls was their idea of quick fix.
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Good loops a perfectly fine, even a few great loops.
But an infinite? That's too much. I play both sides and I loathe that ideal thinking. I just wish things were more balanced.
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Wait, they opened up the Dead Dawg infinite? Why?
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If you're willing to wait a bit. I can get you some.
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It’s not an infinite if there’s a breakable wall.
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Killer sided how?.. Dead dawg saloon is amazing for survivors. We constantly play map offerings for it in my group.
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Yeah I would like to see what everyone is talking about as well. What did they do?
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I think strong windows with walls are good.
This gives survivors good windows, just like good pallets, that can be broken/cut down and not used all game
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It’s a free win for a killer against solo survivors, I’m not sure if I’ve ever lost on dead dawg.
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this is an incredibly rough video hastily put together, so you can see that some of my info is wrong, except for the windows
Apologies for my naisaly voice, I'm feeling rather ill at the moment
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Do you expect BHVR to understand why some loops are strong.
They should have just removed the window it seemed like a no brainer.
Literally the first thing I notice on new maps is if there are two windows next to each other. Almost anytime there is a second window by another it becomes an extremely strong loop. This was an issue with Red Forest for a while on The Huntress' map.
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Yeah I know.
I guess I'm just more flustered at some of these decisions.
It feels genuinely upsetting. I don't know why I bother half the time
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It's a infinite
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That is statistically untrue from what the devs have released with Hawkins being the most dangerous and the saloon wasn't even on the list for killer sided maps if I am remembering correctly.
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They should know by now but this just shows who ever does internal testing doesn't actually know what they're doing if they even have Q&A. It's like they don't test these simple changes before they go live. If I was changing a map ESPECIALLY if it was a permanent fixture on the map instead of a random tile the first things I would check.
- Are there multiple windows nearby that can cause an infinite?
- Are the pallets on that tile fair for both sides?
- Are there any vault locations that cause infinites?
- How are the totem spots?
Literally first thing that comes to mind with this game. It's actually frustrating.
Also "Break The Wall" is a garbage suggestion. You either waste time at the start of the game breaking these or you have to willingly lose a chase to break these to not further screw yourself later. There might as well be a pallet there so it leaves room for error on the survivors part.
Not saying you're saying break the wall either I just know someone is going to say that. Breakable walls were a cool idea but their implementation feels like ######### most of the time.
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While I do think this change is unhealthy, the map as a whole is still quite Killer sided. You can just let the Survivors do the Saloon gen and then you never have to chase there anyway. It's incredibly easy to 3-gen on that map and avoid the Saloon almost entirely. Not to mention there are big dead zones and the pallet loops are practically useless.
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So instead of having to break only 1 wall to avoid a near-infinite, you gotta break a second one. They should really just change keys into things that open/close breakable walls for a duration, that way survivors have to actually interact with the walls to create a stronger loop that can still be broken again.
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Yeah I'm not sure where this idea that Dead Dawg is killer sided came from. Saloon is a strong building that can easily drain a killer's time and several of the buildings in front the saloon can easily be chained together. The only thing that helps killers on Dead Dawg is that it's a smaller map so it's easier to get around, but that doesn't really matter when the saloon is a guaranteed free gen and the map often spawns a gen on the balconies of one of the other buildings. Even the gallows is a kind of free gen, but is at least a bit easier for killers to defend since it's a more center gen.
If survivors don't know how to prioritize gens by doing the saloon, gallows, or balcony gens first, then yeah it can be very easy for the killer to defend the remaining gens.
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I think the map is pretty balence honestly you have a strong building that if the killer chase you there this can be a game winning chase if you are good enough. A lot of loop were the survivor and killer need to mind game each other. A lot of bush for the survivor who like to hide and the map is small enough for the killer to be able to interact with the survivor almost at any moment.
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Wack if they wanted to prevent it being a hostage room they could've done the one by the window
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Probably could have gotten a hit way earlier if you actually took the loop tighter
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Maybe? I dunno. I've had weird window hit boxes in the past, I MAY have not even gotten that hit. But I can see why you'd say that
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Hell. Yeah. Make it more engaging that I guess it wouldn't be as bad
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Yeah, I agree with you Dustin, I feel like this is the wrong way to make a map balanced
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Yeah, but you see what I mean? It feels awful.
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So, you are telling me that the worst map in the game is now even worse?
Nice.
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Yeah. There's a video in the bottom of the post if wanna see it, it's ten minutes long
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Thanks, but I would prefer to never see Dead Dawg Saloon again.
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Not even to see the bad window design?
Yeah that's fair haha
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Nope. See how much I hate that map?
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I mean, I like a western cowboy map. But it certainly needs to be better
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I never liked it. I still remember Deathslinger's PTB: half an hour waiting for a match, only to end on the most atrocious map I had ever seen.
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The biggest problem for me with a change like this isn't even whether it creates an infinite, makes the map worse or better, etc. It's literally a perfect example of how BHVR seems to sink time into things that NO ONE is asking for over the numerous things that large numbers of people DO want to see addressed.
I reminds me of the aura change they made (and rolled back) some time ago. No one was asking for that, but they utilized some form of staff hours by someone to change something (and in that case, made it into something no one wanted, ironically).
The "death room" was only a problem for the one-in-a-million game that a killer tried to troll someone by going AFK then trapping everyone inside (which usually happened only when survivors tried to troll the killer themselves, as is seen in a couple of the videos out there on YT). Anyone with any common sense knew not to enter the room in a situation like that -- my friend and I had it happen once, we did the gens ASAP, and got out just as fast (and the killer was running NOED, Bamboozle, and BW as expected, and got no points or kills because no one in the match was brain-dead).
Other than those extremely rare cases, the room was a dead area of the map, but the fact that someone -- or several someones -- took actual time to rework the map (even if it took literally only 5 minutes to do by removing that one wall) is time (yep, even if it was only 5 minutes, it's still time) that they could have worked on something that would be far better to invest work time into. Like rebalancing Spirit. Or fixing the "silent on the ground" bug. Or updating one of the hundreds of useless perks on both sides. Or reworking a busted add-on like Clown's Pinky Finger. Or balancing solo survivor and finding an answer to the thorny issue of that experience vs. SWF. Or addressing actual problem maps like RPD or Haddonfield. Or literally ANYTHING else. But no -- some of their time and effort is sunk into a change like this.
The inability to make simple prioritizing decisions like this just boggle my mind with this company. As someone who used to sell real estate, they're like the clients looking at a house who are worried about what wall they could put a flat screen on -- while ignoring the fact that termites are completely eating away at the structure around them. 🤦♂️
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I forgot what was the aura change?
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Without any warning, they rolled out an update last year where aura of everything -- generators, survivors on hooks, survivors and killers when someone had an aura reading perk of some type -- looked more "realistic", but everything was MUCH harder to see. I had games as a survivor where I could barely see a teammate hooked across the map, and BBQ was a great example of a perk affected, as survivors across the map blended into their surroundings. It was almost universally panned by players, and BHVR rolled it back to what it was and is now shortly afterwards. No one had asked for auras to be changed -- but yet, they did, and made a non-problem into one.
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Welp goes to show that you shouldn't try to make everything look realistic in a game
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it was somethink like that. there is a hook behind a rock and tree
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Did a quick Google search and found this:
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one more. there is bear trap on this stairs
a little bit further away. can you see it?
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I guess i'm in the minority, I liked playing dead dawg saloon as killer and survivor lol. I guess not anymore if this is happening.
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How come you dislike it? I think it'd be neat to have a western map. But yeah, this map sucks
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dead dawg is the most "killer sided" map in dbd, even shack can be basically worthless cause of that dang wall... and super easy to 3 gen on that map
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We may disagree on ALL KILL but we agree on this. Worst map ever bro
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General data for all maps is completely irrelevant, only data on red ranks matters for discussion on here as I’m assuming 95% of us are red rank players.
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If it’s balanced why does Otz recommend it as the best map for most killers to do adept on?
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