The Amanda's Letter add-on for The Pig has been Kill Switched due to an issue with incorrect RBT count.
http://dbd.game/killswitch
SBMM invisibility is counterproductive
Can someone tell me why the sbmm being invisible is a good idea, I can't think of any reason other then I guess toxicity but even then who tf cares what score you have, all it being invisible does is to hide how mismatched the new matchmaking will be.
EDIT-Since some people have gotten confused what I'm saying is the SBMM score being invisible is counterproductive NOT the RANKS being invisible I know that under the new system ranks would be irrelevant that's not at all what I'm talking about.
Comments
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I think you answered why with your last statement.
Having it invisible is an awful idea in my opinion cause even if it works great you will have a lot of people saying it isn't without a way to verify.
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That's why I'm asking if anyone has a legit reason for it to be invisible because I can't think of one.
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Well if I'm not mistaken the devs said something like:
We wish to hide the mmr so players play how they would normally play and be match within the right ranking instead of people knowing how the ranks are determined and change how they play etc. To get higher.
Basically they want you to play how you normally would without ranking changing your play style
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Okay but then wouldn't there be a problem of peoples playstyles being unfairly belittled by the matchmaking without their knowledge, I dont see how it's a bad thing to at least roughly know what the system sees as good or bad. How can we give feedback on the system when we know nothing about it.
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Well the idea is not to focus on the rank, if you want feedback then focus on how the match went and not if you're ranking up. When you know the ranking it's quite easy to abuse it so I dont blame them, everyone should play for fun not to hit a high rank sorta thing.
Then again I feel like I'm the only one who wants MMR lol
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It's because people were basing their opinions on SBMM on the old ranks which are completely separate and not related at all. People were basically saying "I'm a green rank killer, why am I getting purple/red ranks survivors" when purple/red ranks survivors didn't even exist.
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Okay but if you knew what your sbmm rank was and you got ranked with someone way higher or lower and the game went well then you'd know the system obviously isn't working very well. People are gonna go for escapes or kills regardless and I dont see how a well made system is "abusable". A good matchmaking system should reward skill regardless of playstyle. So it being invisible just feels like a cope out so this system doesn't get the same criticisms that rainbow lobbies get.
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Okay then it being invisible only means you can't see when you are getting matched up with people way better or worse and just have to assume. If it was matching you up with people your score and the matches went well then it being visible would only be a good thing since they'd be able to show how well their system works. It being invisible only tells me they have no confidence in their own product.
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Because if it were visible, it would be too obvious to see it doesn't work.
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All it tells me is they have no faith in their own product.
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Or people would see someone with a score that's 100 higher than their own and claim it's unbalanced, when, in fact, that difference might be essentially irrelevant in the algorithm they devised.
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No... The point of SBMM is that the old color system is bad and doesn't actually represent skill. It doesn't matter if a purple or green gets matched with a red rank because it means that they are similar in skill. The old color system is really bad, I remember the first test I was matching with brown rank survivors who were somehow amazing at the game.
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Then they should tell us what it means so we know. Having a system that's easily misunderstood is not a good thing either. Like all you have to say is your score is basically between 100 and 1000 with 100 being the lowest and 1000 being the highest so obviously if your a 200 and your matched with a 900 you should know, because regardless of how the match went its a failure of the system and people should know that. It very clearly shows they have no faith in their own ability to make a proper system
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Even if they said anything, people would still complain, because they don't read. This is one of the few games I've seen where the in-game news appear as an unskippable, impossible-to-disable pop-up, and yet people still don't read the patch notes.
Besides, they don't want people to affect their MMR.
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Yes I know the current system is bad but that has nothing to do with this new system. If its accurate thats all the more reason it should be shown so you know if you are actually getting paired with people your level. Imagine if in csgo a silver was placed with a global elite.
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Dude you are not understanding what I'm saying. If you say the old system is bad then why are you still using it to judge matchmaking? You just said the old system was bad but you want them to show the old color ranks to judge how well SBMM is working? They are completely separate things, the old ranks literally mean nothing, that's why they hid them.
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Then they can be corrected when they complain and the situation is resolved. Easy as that and a proper well made mmr system shouldn't be easily abusable even with knowledge of how the system works. People being willfully ignorant is not a good excuse to not inform your playerbase of what they should know.
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What? No I'm saying your SBMM score should be visible so you were the one who was not understanding.
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Oh you mean they should show the SBMM rank? Yeah I agree with that, it's stupid they aren't. I thought you were talking about how they hid the old ranks because that went invisible today.
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Yes I'm talking about how I can't think of a single good reason to hide someone's sbmm score.
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I was fine with it but it's driving me nuts I can't see to conclude my theories that people / swfs are purposefully pulling the rank 3, rank , 20, rank 16, rank 9 card right now.
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Yeah people will still have swfs with mixed matchmaking but now you won't be able to see it and won't know why you did so horribly that round and will just be left to assume, its dumb imo.
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Someone already told you that the devs don't want people exploiting the algorithm.
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A well made algorithm wouldn't be so easily exploitable, so I dont see that as a good reason at all.
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The thing is, if i end up in several games where only one other survivor is doing gens, and the other 2 just run around, why did i end up there?
I prefer to play stealthy, but i usually end up with the highest points (including killer) because i just do it all, gens, hook saves, totems, but chases only if the killer finds me (depending on the teammates i might also take over if one is in trouble).
But if i end up with people that don´t play constructive, there might be an unhealty focus on chases. I know for a part of the playerbase that is what the game revolves around, but thats is not true for all of us.
That being said, this reflects a previous experience and just shows why a little insight in how things work might help balancing different aspects of the game.
The last games i played were fine.
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How does that make sense? An algorithm is an algorithm. Unless the devs add RNG to it, the results are 100% predictable.
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Exactly you won't know if your playstyle is possibly being under or over valued by the system and a well made system would reward general skill the most whether it be running the killer for 5 gens or being a good gen jockeys that never misses a skillcheck and knows how to do specific gens so as not to 3 gen or even a survivor thats good at hiding and wasting the killers time. All it being invisible does is make us assume whether the system is working well or not based on a game that has fairly extreme rng in their map design.
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Yes and if they make the right things rewarding then how would it be exploitable?
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Also dbd already has a massive amount of rng baked into it to begin with.
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If you understand how the algorithm works, it's always going to be exploitable because everything is.
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How so? How would dbds matchmaking be more exploitable then any other games mmr?
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How so?
Because an algorithm is 100% deterministic. Hell, even RNG is deterministic, it's just made to appear random, from an end-user PoV and a statistical PoV.
How would dbds matchmaking be more exploitable then any other games mmr?
It wouldn't, it'd be just as exploitable as those games. However, those games don't have a portion of the playerbase actively trying to get those games killed.
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So why should people hating the game matter, its obviously not very large since the game is still growing so again I do think see how thats a good reason at all the worst thing a person can do to this game is just not play it, or I guess like hack the servers like what happened to titanfall 2 but thats not relevant to matchmaking. Also again how would it be legitimately exploitable, you can't answer that because we don't know how it works and if its not anymore exploitable then any other game why is not an issue for those games?. League has a far more toxic fan base then dbds and they show your rank.
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Yes but taking chases is important and certainly shows the most skill and that's why its important not only to take hook stages for your team but also to show you're good at chases.
To be high rank you should be doing everything in a trial, from chases, gems, totems, saves etc.
Biggest issue is alot of players dont do gens or chases which are by far the most important 2, so play how you enjoy playing and the game will adjust you to killers and survivors that match
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Not too mention that if this matchmaking is actually good and working properly and you're getting placed with people like that then well im sorry to say but that means your the same "skill level" as them so....
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It serves absolutely no purpose. Yoi can still ask the ranks on end game chat.
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...Which are irrelevant. It'd be like me asking what language you speak to understand why you don't like solar eclipses. The two are not related at all.
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Then why having ranks in the first place ?
Irrelevant or not, people want to know this information. I want to know if I play with/against players that play a lot their role.
Seems like a reasonable request to me. Hiding it or showing it makes no difference, so Id prefer it being shown.
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Then why having ranks in the first place ?
Because when SBMM is permanently enabled, they'll be used for rank reset rewards.
Irrelevant or not, people want to know this information. I want to know if I play with/against players that play a lot their role.
Rank will only tell you if they played it a lot after the last rank reset, nothing more.
Seems like a reasonable request to me. Hiding it or showing it makes no difference, so Id prefer it being shown.
If it makes no difference, you shouldn't have a preference. However, the fact is that it does make a difference, since people kept complaining about "rainbow matches" during MMR tests, even though those ranks were 100% irrelevant.
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The ranks are hidden during this SBMM Test, because people used to complain about the ranks they were matched against. Despite the fact that the devs said ranks don´t matter.
Also ranks as we know them, will be completely removed (once the SBMM goes live) and replaced by a system that resets your "rank" each month to 20 and awards you for the "rank" that you reached that month. Ranks will simply be a measure of how much you played each month. Therefore there is no point in showing them.
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"Rank will only tell you if they played it a lot after the last rank reset, nothing more."
Exactly and I claimed it on my previous message, I want to know this information. To me, its important, even if in its core, it doesnt make a difference, I want to know which kind of player Im facing / teaming with.
Its cool that you're aligned with bhvr's vision, but I'm not. Rainbow color is not an argument since it's always been like that. The only reason its hidden is because Bhvr think rainbow color would discredit the MM system. Which leads me to think they're not confident about it. But who knows, nobody know what we're talking about :)
"When there's a doubt, there's no doubt".
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One issue with it is it hides whether or not the matchmaking is truly working as intended or not. You have balanced matches, then you have the odd match where you go up against people that are quite a bit better than you. So the game knows you aren't ready for that MMR and you get a more balanced match the next game.
Okay, fine. Except that's easy to see and determine yourself if you're capable of seeing your MMR, or your MMR relative to the killer/average of all 4 survivors. But because you can't see your MMR or theirs and do this, that means that if the game is failing to use MMR correctly, it won't really matter because if MMR is hidden, you'll never know if the game had terrible/unfair matchmaking or a game you were going to have a lot of trouble to win.
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not in the slightest. As previously explained in this thread ranks are hidden purely to get feedback on what's actually happening in a match.
Rightly or wrongly people perceive ranks as an indication of skill in DbD, but it's really a very minor thing - Rank is mostly to do with time invested which doesn't correlate with skill. So in order to get feedback and not have "SBMM doesn't work because my match was full of rainbow ranks", the ranks have been hidden for the test.
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Exactly and I claimed it on my previous message, I want to know this information. To me, its important, even if in its core, it doesnt make a difference, I want to know which kind of player Im facing / teaming with.
You'll find out during the trial. Is that not enough?
The only reason its hidden is because Bhvr think rainbow color would discredit the MM system.
No, it's because people kept focusing on that instead of the information the devs actually needed: how the trial went. It's like if I asked you how your drive went, you said you drove a red car. You didn't answer the question.
"When there's a doubt, there's no doubt".
You can cast doubt on anything, if you're acting in bad faith. This is meaningless.
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I don't get it. If that's only to NOT get rainbow kind of feedback, it's weird. Since player cannot give any feedback about their games anyway ? Except for the "did you have fun" rating, I dont know what type of feedback you're waiting for. Polls ? Maybe find a way to know how many hours are played by the person answering it.
I agree that rank =/= skill, and so do experienced players. These players won't give negative feedback since they understand this reasoning.
People that will bring the Rainbow arguments are NOT new players either, since I guess a *majority* of them play casually / dont go over the forums, and are not experienced enough to understand how ranking system work.
So who are the players complaining about rainbow ranks. Non experienced players that dont get it? Trolls ? People that follow someone else's opinion because they want to be negative toward Bhvr ? Probably. Also maybe because the Ranking system has always been blurry and Bhvr have never set rules with the game. What is a win ? I dont know.
Then, overall, why does this rainbow argument matters ? What does it change that people complain about it ?
That's what I dont understand. Why give importance to these people and this rainbow argument to the point you have to hide ranks, if you're confident enough in your system ?! If you know it works, it works. Nothing is perfect, and people will always complain about anything anyway.
Once again @Orion , I want to know ranks cause I have no way to know if someone is a casual or a hardcore player. Skill cannot reveal that. You really underestimate the value of this information.
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Im not talking about ranks I'm talking about the SBMM score, which from what I've gathered from what the devs have said, they plan to keep as a secret score that will determine your skill and you will have absolutely no way of checking this score
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Im not talking about the color ranks I'm talking about the SBMM score
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Oh.. Yeah, who knows mate.
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The thread is supposed to be about the SBMM scores which I believe the devs plan to keep secret, or at least that was my original intention.
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What would you want to do with that? It´s probably some kind of abstract score that only the algorythm understands.
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