Does this constitute as targeted harassment?
Basically this nurse hard tunneled first the dwight and then me out of the game and when I asked them why, they answered with "the dwight cuz he is gay". The dwight had "gay" in thier name and wore the gay charm.
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Since they admitted it freely in chat, yes, I think that would count. I'm not sure though, you'd have to ask one of the mods.
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Yes, because they targeted someone for their sexuality and admitted it in chat.
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given they were dumb enough to openly admit to it in chat, yes.
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You can at least report them for communication abuse for insults, its a open and shut case on that one, not qualified enough to know if that constitutes harassment
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yes
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Depends on if he meant Dwight the made up character on a computer game or the human player actually using Dwight.
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The Dwight comment may have merit as far as harassment. The DS comment not really.
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Honestly i think this guy is teying to see how much time for him the get a ban i think he could play 15 game a day say that all the time and he wont get ban for that. I have no trust in the dev or mod or i dont know who check those log XD
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I actually do understand that they have tunneled me after I ds'ed them. They have already taken the stun so might as well keep focusing me since that stun danger is now gone, but them tunneling dwight first cause "dwight gay" is... well...
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Yes, it is. I hope you reported them.
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Openly gay male, here. No, that's not targeted harassment. That word has multiple meanings, and one of them is synonymous with "annoying."
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I did so not to worry about that
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The word "gay" doesn't actually ever mean "annoying," and using it to mean "annoying" would be another example of homophobia. So, no, we don't give someone a pass because they meant it in a negative way, but not a super literal negative way.
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Not to take away form your post but it's a Pride Charm* Not Gay charm. Some people may take offense to it being called that.
But to answer your question it could be reported but beyond that not much else you can do. I mean I hope that player hits his head on a door though tonight for saying that.
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Not to take away form your post but it's a Pride Charm* Not Gay charm. Some people may take offense to it being called that.
Thanks for the correction. I don't take offense to it, but it is very annoying when people reduce LGBT to just gay men.
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Oh it's my pleasure 😃. I identify in this group so I understand. It's not super offensive but I know there are those out there who would be offended and rightfully so. Yes it is annoying indeed because It's usually just people who are misinformed or don't understand or care to understand. I don't think @About8Genjis meant any harm wording it this way but it is incorrect to say so.
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I dont really understand why so many here seem to think that this is harrasment and something you can report them for.....
I mean sure saying in the chat that you dislike someone because they are "gay" making it seem like being gay is a bad thing, that is not allowed, but tunneling is perfectly allowed, the devs have said so many times.
How can you claim harassments or targeting when they do something that is just gameplay in the dev's eyes.
I mean at this point you are basically saying that playing the game any way you want is fine unless you have a reason for it that you admit to.....which is just weird.
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The devs also said that targeting someone (for being LGBT, playing a black character, whatever) is bannable, and this killer literally admitted to targeting someone for being gay.
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yeah but "targeting" just meant tunneling which is allowed and seen as normal gameplay
Imagine playing against 2 Claudettes and Tapp and Adam and then saying in the end chat you say you....played the game and fullfilled your role because...they were black...
And then getting banned for just playing the game.
its just such a weird thing when you do the exact same thing you otherwise would do except you admit/claim its for a reason, then suddenly you get banned.
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Motive matters. Always has. It's the difference between a so-called "crime of passion" and premeditated murder, for instance. It's the difference between a hate crime and a crime whose victim happened to be a minority.
This isn't weird, it's the way it works in the vast majority of countries on Earth (including yours, I'd bet).
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I mean... There's nothing wrong with tunneling. And it seem like there's some missing parts of the conversation but that is besides the point. The point is the killer admitted he tunneled the Dwight because he is gay is down right offensive. This is not a conversation about tunneling its a conversation about offensive word usage to justify their tunneling.
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ermm not really, murder is murder because it is premeditated, a crime of passion is something that happens in the heat of the moment and emotions run to high, those are just different things.
I get that motives matter but the outcome of games is not something you can really show, the only proof is just (like I said) them claiming it is for a reason, even though without that reason the game could/would have ended just the same way.
Tunneling and camping is completely fine....unless you say its for a certain reason, that is just a tad weird to me, its all the same thing, the outcome would have been totally fine were it not for that bit of extra information.
I can tunnel whoever I want and let everyone else live who dont meet my criteria and it would be totally fine unless I happen to disclose my motives....
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The difference would be if the killer said "I tunneled Claudette because she's black". Deliberately being a dick and a bigot is what gets you the ban.
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Fun fact: if you constantly tunnel and camp the same survivor over and over (i.e.: target them), that is also bannable.
Another fun fact: the vast majority of homophobes and other such hateful individuals are too hopped up on their hate to not go full Plague in the end-game chat and explicitly say why they did it.
If you're worried about getting banned because you killed this or that character, don't be. This has been discussed at length.
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Motives do matter. Especially if this murder was in court it could constitute as a hate crime as opposed to man slaughter or other various reasons. I think this discussion got derailed lol xD. Long story short what the killer said was offensive and his account should be suspended or how ever BHVR see fit for punishment. No one is saying he is wrong for tunneling he was wrong to say what he said in justifying his reasons behind it.
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what if they said it was because Dwight is homosexual? or because he was wearing a yellow sweater? or because he was running a certain perk? its all the same action and its all fine and allowed.....except when you say its for a certain reason....
Well listen, I agree with you but im looking at this from the devs perspective, they claim tunneling and camping is fine and allowed and part of the game, their words so you cannot say that a killer is "being a dick" for doing that as its just part of the gameplay.
And yeah they are atleast acting like they are a bigot but again, my point is that it just led to normal gameplay.
What if the killer let the dwight go as the only one "because he was gay"?
What if the killer specifically did not use their powers and only used m1 on the dwight "because he was gay"
What if the killer specifically ONLY used their power on the dwight "because he was gay"
What if the killer always did a little spin before hitting the dwight "because he was gay"
Do you see the problem here? non of these things would be even worth mentioning, its because WE see tunneling and camping as unfun or unfair but its the DEVS that said its perfectly fine and allowed and part of the gameplay.......so I ask again, what can you really report that player for? mentioning that they think dwight is homosexual?
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If he said because he was homosexual that's just as bad... I think you're missing the point of this discussion BioX What are you not understanding? It doesn't matter that he was tunneled or let go. The context and wording behind his reason was offensive and unwarranted. No one is saying tunneling is bad in this discussion. The face that the killer supported his reason for tunneling the way he did is the problem and the point of the discussion.
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I think you're missing the part where the killer admitted that Dwight DESERVED to be hard tunneled because he's gay. Doing a little spin doesn't hurt the game. Only letting Dwight go because they think he's gay is favoritism, which killers do all the time (many killers admit to often letting certain characters go). Only focusing on one character because you're a bigot and have a trait you don't like (in this case, being gay) is where the harassment part comes in.
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The devs already said this is bannable, so I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by claiming otherwise.
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I think its only if its done multiple times and admitted it. But I could be wrong.
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Well considering im the one who started this specific part of the discussion (actually the entire discussion because there seemed to be a consensus so far), I highly doubt that.
But pls read the rest of what I wrote and not just that first part and then add to your reaction
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Well did you read what I typed? is everything I said as examples bannable then? doing anything at all, walking, m1ing, looking around, literally anything at all and then, when asked, claiming it was because someone was homosexual or black or what have you would lead to a ban?
Completely regardless of whatever that action might have been?
What have the devs exactly said, I mean I said in my initial post that I would love for a dev to jump in on this because them saying "Targetting is bannable" is laughably incomplete.
(EDIT, oh I actually did not say that in my initial post but it still stands, I would love for a dev to come in here and set some parameters for this rule)
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If you don't know the difference between harassing someone because they're gay, black, whatever, and normal gameplay, I can't help you there. I'm not sure if you're asking these things in bad faith, but your questions and attitude are remarkably similar to people who do act in bad faith when any sort of minority protection is mentioned, so I'll leave it at that.
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Okay than going back to your original comment... You don't understand why this would be reportable? It's not reportable for the tunneling it's reportable for the offensive words used to justify the reason.
@BioX "How can you claim harassments or targeting when they do something that is just gameplay in the dev's eyes?"
Again no one is saying anything about the act of tunneling... It harassment and discrimination period! Had he not said anything about Dwight being Gay this discussion would literally not be here. There are other players complaining about tunneling in other threads that's not related to gay shamming...
Considering you started a specific part of the discussion that is completely irrelevant to this conversation.
@BioX ....Notice that this discussion post says nothing about the act of tunneling being the issue. The issue is again... the words used to justify the means...
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Right so anything I mentioned, no matter what action is, if anyone asks a killer in the endgame chat: "why did you do X" and the killer answers "because they are gay (or black or so) then thats just a ban.
its not about what the killer actually does, its about the claimed reasoning behind it, and that can lead to a ban.
and it would also still be a problem if they said "because they were wearing a yellow sweater" as that would also constitute some sort of pre-determined targeting.
But then we come back to where its established that according to the devs (and those are the ones that ban people), tunneling and camping is perfectly fine and part of the game.
So just like doing a little spin, it does not hurt the game, again im talking from the devs perspective, ours does not matter, to the devs hard tunneling is just as allowed and fine as doing a little spin.
thats been my problem from the start, yeah they admit to have done so based on certain reasons, but the gameplay is not different from any other game where the killer has other motivations for doing the exact same thing.
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Yes you're finally catching on. That's literally the argument point I was trying to explain to you.
You are right when you say,
"Right so anything I mentioned, no matter what action is, if anyone asks a killer in the endgame chat: "why did you do X" and the killer answers "because they are gay (or black or so) then thats just a ban."But if you think a yellow sweater and being gay are comparable you're unbearably naïve.
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I'm just another voice in the mob, but yes.
Tunneling/camping/slugging/etc. are all considered 'ok' (in a sense that you can't get banned for it; the debate over 'toxic or not' is something else entirely), but targeting somebody for their character (or their own) skin color/ethnicity or gender/sexual orientation (among several other things) is not ok, and is worth a report and/or ban.
I'm just surprised they were stupid enough to flat-out admit it. :/
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Im not sure what you mean exactly by "acting in bad faith".
Let me be clear her and say that im not a factor in this discussion, I think everyone is equal and am in full support of LGBT etc.
Im merely questioning where the line lies and how those rules are formulated.
I really cannot think of how to condense it down any further then I already have, tunneling and camping is something players like myself see as unfun and unfair but its the devs that said its fine, its also the devs that ban for harassment.
But what was the harassment? well ultimately its only the claim in the endgame chat, thats the only harassment here, were the claim not made then it would have been just like any other match, just the knowledge that maybe you were treated exactly the same way you were always treated but this time not because the killer simply wanted you dead but because "you were gay" suddenly makes it all very different.
Again even though its the exact same perfectly fine and allowed gameplay AND is the killer even allowed to admit to any form of reasoning why they wanted a specific player dead? flashlight, yellow sweater, playing dwight, playing Ash, just anything at all or is that all seen has harassment? and if not then what exactly is, what is the definition? only minorities? what if you kill claudettes because they have glasses? can you be banned for harassment for that?
But yeah its a rather pointless discussion, I would really need a person who is actually responsible for maintaining the rules to give a defined reasoning.
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I'm just surprised they were stupid enough to flat-out admit it. :/
You're expecting too much from someone who thinks sexual orientation is so important that it should define whether or not someone "deserves" to be harassed.
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Fair enough.
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Im not, im making silly examples as reasons, as I just mentioned I need a definition, I want a dev to tell me what counts as harassment and what doesnt, this is good though, we are making progress, we have already established that the killer can do whatever they want, including tunneling certain players because "they are gay", they just cant admit to it, that would be bannable, now moving on:
saying you did what you did because someone is gay is not allowed and is harassment.
saying you did what you did because someone is wearing glasses is? not allowed? harassment?
saying you did what you did because someone is a woman? harassment?
saying you did what you did because someone brought a flashlight? harassment?
(oh and dont be so condescending, I was trying to get through to (all of) you what the problem is and have been going over the same material time and time again responding to (all of) you so you would get it, so dont start with that "finally your catching on" I had the parameters of my question set from the first post I made)
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I will assume you're mature enough and knowledgeable enough to know the difference here. You're either trolling or just naïve and should think before you speak. Beyond that I have nothing else more to say to you.
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It is 100% harassment for his gay comment... Wearing glasses is not a protected group so no... Someone who is a woman would be harassment, someone who brought a flashlight... the fact you are comparing protected groups to clothing and objects is just insulting now. If you honestly can't answer these for yourself you should go talk to someone.
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Well thats another debate, just because they said that....do you have to take that seriously?
Like who says they are not just trying to get a rise out of the other person? could have just said "cuz your mom hates you" for example and then it suddenly would not be a problem.
I mean I get it and all, but still, I think you would have to set a lot more very defined rules as BHVR if you want people to adhere to them...if that makes any sense, that or just do away with the entire chat.
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Preach it!
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Wittingly or not, your behavior is remarkably similar (read: identical) to "sealioning".
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Again with the condescending tone....come on man.
I have thought about this and the fact that you now refuse to answer says to me that you yourself are now in a bit of a bind as to how to proceed.
No this is not baiting you, its just more of an affirmation that you cant just make these blank statements and we do need some defined rules about what is and isnt harassment, which has been my request from the start.
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I am talking to someone, I am talking to you.
The discussion is about a player admitting to certain actions based on certain traits of the other players.
The question is when you can report someone for harassment to a point that it has merit.
You have now added some of your own personal boundaries to this rule.
You say that I can freely go ahead and tunnel and camp everyone who is playing a character who is wearing glasses (because I hate people who dont have perfect eyesight and see them as inferior beings or something) and can admit to that fact in the post game chat every time and the devs would not ban me for it because as per your rules that is not harassment.
Again I would like to point out im not trying to drive you into a corner here, im merely trying to make a point about this not being as straight forward as you seemingly like to believe it is.
"doing something because someone is gay? clearly that is a problem, doing something because someone wears glasses? well thats just silly....in my point of view"
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Great, another term I need to look up....man-splaining, gas-lighting and now this...... alright here goes:
Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.
Ok gotta admit you are losing me with that one, I can tell you Im not trolling and harassment? I mean you are willingly part of this debate, you can dip out anytime you want..... persistent requests for evidence...ermmm not really, I may have asked for the devs definition of harassment in this game but thats just asking for a little back up for claims made so that should not be a problem.
Repeated questions....well yeah, heck i even mention that im repeating myself over and over again because I want to get to the bottom of this but also im trying to make clear its not all that easy (again I would love to continue this with a dev who is actually responsible for taking action on these sorta things, right now we are all basically armchair lawyers).
A pretense of civility and sincerity, heck with an assumption like that I might as well claim that you are the one sealioning.
Honestly so far this discussion has been civil all around right? well until mike started being rather condescending for no reason I can tell but their inability to make themselves more clear so they resort to stuff like "its obvious" and "if you dont see that then you need help" etc.
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Going to budge in here, @BioX I'd consider these would fall under bannable for harassment, based on things relating to illegal reasons to be fired from a workplace in the country where I live. Might not be the best comparison but it gives you a general idea.
- Gender
- Age
- Physicial and/or Mental Disability
- Religious belief
- Race
- Sexual orientation
If it ain't any of them, then more likely than not it's not harassment, but there most likely are some outliers (like tunneling the same player multiple times in a row would he problematic).
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