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No One Wants Free Wins
We want actual viable killers, and changes based around players who actually know how to use a killer properly. When the entire community says a character is awful to play against, and as, maybe it's time to step back and look at them to see why. I see this argument brought up so much and it's infuriating, because I know many killers and survivors. They all generally agree Nurse/Billy need adjustment. If anyone wants a killer that level it's because they're the only ones that can really stand up to a coordinated team. Even non-swf can ruin killers and just burn through gens.
There are many issues that make this a problem. Namely map design, hitboxes, and gen speeds in general. As well as dumping all of killer's power into addons. Why do we have to play the game, to get points, to waste on addons, to play effectively? I'm a purist, I don't like using addons. I don't feel a killer should be based around addons either. All we want is a fun killer for both sides, that can be effective.
Yea we're gonna go for the 4k, and we're gonna try our damndest, but the worse you make a killer the more likely they are to play like a dick and tunnel/camp. Look at Legion, that's all he's good for since his power doesn't do anything. The proposed buff won't change much either. 3 hits to down when injured? That's still ample time to waste. Don't even get me started on that god awful achievement he has. It should just be down 50 people with Deep Wounds. Back to Legion.
Easy fix is build in Frank's Mix Tape. Make it base. 3 hits to down, maybe even 2 hits to down if you're injured. Boom, solves both problems. Maybe even toss in Cold Dirt base to let him really keep up in a chase. He's supposed to be rushing you down. Frank's let's him do that, and makes him a solid mid-tier killer. Before anyone cries there's no counter, bait pallets, stealth, slam a pallet on them. You can avoid a Legion it just takes some thought and some effort.
No one likes how Deep Wounds work. It's not fun to break the chase, and then just bleed out. I'd rather rush someone down and end a chase quickly than moonwalk and watch them drop. He should be an always active killer. Which is what those addons do. Once again we have a killer who's power was just dumpstered into purple addons. Adding it to Injured survs isn't gonna fix anything.
Games are done so fast, faster chases won't really stop survivors from surviving. In fact I'm pretty sure BHVR has stated in multiple streams that chases should be over fast, and fun. Right now a 2-3 gen chase isn't uncommon. Even faster ones. Legion especially suffers due to the 110. I don't want to just make them 115, but they cannot travel the map at all. Only change I can think of for map pressure is no frenzy drain until in a chase, or faster MS while out of a chase, or something. Anything to make him fun for both sides, and viable to play. A solid mid-tier killer is totally fine. He doesn't have to be Billy or Nurse, or Hag. Just playable.
Note: PLEASE CHANGE THAT GOD AWFUL ACHIEVEMENT!
Other Note: 80% of his addons are trash, and one of the iris is a worse version of All-Seeing Blood. Why?
Comments
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My thoughts exactly Caretaker. I don't want easy wins at all; the game wouldn't be a challenge to me anymore and I wouldn't get any fun out of it. I just want to be able to play any killer I want and at least have the OPPORTUNITY to mess around and have fun. If I don't play Nurse or Hillbilly, I have to sweat my ass of as killer to have a match longer than 4 minutes. I want to have diversity in what I can play.1
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I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
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I think that would be the point. 12 seconds is still quite some time to be able to rush down a single survivor, but you still don't have any more snowball power.ScottJund said:I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
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@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
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@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
ScottJund said:I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I think that would be the point. 12 seconds is still quite some time to be able to rush down a single survivor, but you still don't have any more snowball power.
I'm sorry that would be horrible for the game. It would be the dumbest ######### on the planet to play against. You might as well just stand still at that point if you ever get hit by a feral hit.
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@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
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Or be able to lose the killer or be stealthyScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
Y'kno, no scratchmarks either0 -
Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches.
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Yeah I definitely do not play around with any Legion killer they are bi-polar lol. You never know if they going to use frenzy or just reg hit. If you see they are not using their power the best way to dodge is vaulting windows/pallets since they are slow but then ofc they use their power. So you just have to play stealthy which I find fun.Malakir said:
Or be able to lose the killer or be stealthyScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
Y'kno, no scratchmarks either
Legion: Let’s play hide and go seek
Survivors: ehhh okay
Legion: 10,9,8...3,2,1 come out come out wherever you are3 -
@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches.
Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
After he hits you his frenzy is over and he just follows your scratches? Do you know how he works?
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I do and I outrun him quite a lot with lithe that even with frenzy he don't hit me and if he does I have time to hide and mend thanks to the sb after the hit and the scratches not being visible for quite some time after his frenzy goes offScottJund said:@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches.
Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
After he hits you his frenzy is over and he just follows your scratches? Do you know how he works?
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@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches.
Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
Dude, frenzy over=scratchmarks again, also you can use bloodhound and NEVER lose a survivor unless he's no mither.
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Not in the same Sprint plus before you find me with that I already mendedMhhBurgers said:@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches.
Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
Dude, frenzy over=scratchmarks again, also you can use bloodhound and NEVER lose a survivor unless he's no mither.
Idk why all these theory crafting when it doesn't happen in a real scenario where you can Sprint away, get a safe spot and mend
Even when not mending completely just force to chase running in his face for a split second and the bar won't go down. I did this many times, idk why you don't do that too0 -
@Caretaker said:
We want actual viable killers, and changes based around players who actually know how to use a killer properly. When the entire community says a character is awful to play against, and as, maybe it's time to step back and look at them to see why. I see this argument brought up so much and it's infuriating, because I know many killers and survivors. They all generally agree Nurse/Billy need adjustment. If anyone wants a killer that level it's because they're the only ones that can really stand up to a coordinated team. Even non-swf can ruin killers and just burn through gens.There are many issues that make this a problem. Namely map design, hitboxes, and gen speeds in general. As well as dumping all of killer's power into addons. Why do we have to play the game, to get points, to waste on addons, to play effectively? I'm a purist, I don't like using addons. I don't feel a killer should be based around addons either. All we want is a fun killer for both sides, that can be effective.
Yea we're gonna go for the 4k, and we're gonna try our damndest, but the worse you make a killer the more likely they are to play like a dick and tunnel/camp. Look at Legion, that's all he's good for since his power doesn't do anything.
You're completely right, we want viable killers, and viable killers doesn't mean stronger than Nurse or Hillbilly, in fact a lot of players have expressed they want Nurse and Hillbilly to be slightly less powerful than what they are now. I think every killer should equally strong and viable when compared to each other, not stronger than, but equal to, or least as close to as possible.
The addons shouldn't make a killer more effective, if anything they should change some mechanics to make them work slightly different, both to better fit ones playstyle, but also to be able to fluff if up a bit, so it actually adds diversity to the killers.
Personally I think it's a bit stupid that we have to keep grinding to get points to so we can waste more time going through the bloodweb, to be able to get those addons we want to play with.
You're quite right, we'll be doing our best to get everyone killed, and the less viable the killer is ie. the weaker the killer is, the more we're going to be resorting to EFFICIENT strategies, which for most people for both sides isn't going to be fun. Another reason why killers need to be viable is simply because if no new viable killer who's equally strong when compared to all the other killers, then the it's going to be the same killers we keep seeing at the high ranks, namely Nurse and Billy. It also means that people are forced to play Nurse or Billy if they want to play a killer who's viable for competitive play at high ranks, and it absolutely sucks not being able to play your favorite killer at high ranks simply because it's not designed to be competitively viable at high ranks.
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@Malakir said:
MhhBurgers said:@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:
Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches. Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
Dude, frenzy over=scratchmarks again, also you can use bloodhound and NEVER lose a survivor unless he's no mither.
Not in the same Sprint plus before you find me with that I already mended
Idk why all these theory crafting when it doesn't happen in a real scenario where you can Sprint away, get a safe spot and mend
Even when not mending completely just force to chase running in his face for a split second and the bar won't go down. I did this many times, idk why you don't do that too
How would I not find you with big bright red blood dots just to follow, dafuck? I use sloppy butcher too since I play w/o sound so there's no way to lose me.
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I said "before you find me", you might I'm not saying you totally won't but even if so I had time to totally mend or close to if you play well the map layoutMhhBurgers said:@Malakir said:
MhhBurgers said:@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:
Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches. Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks?
Dude, frenzy over=scratchmarks again, also you can use bloodhound and NEVER lose a survivor unless he's no mither.
Not in the same Sprint plus before you find me with that I already mended
Idk why all these theory crafting when it doesn't happen in a real scenario where you can Sprint away, get a safe spot and mend
Even when not mending completely just force to chase running in his face for a split second and the bar won't go down. I did this many times, idk why you don't do that too
How would I not find you with big bright red blood dots just to follow, dafuck? I use sloppy butcher too since I play w/o sound so there's no way to lose me.
I even mentioned getting to a safe spot to force the chase again. Read the whole thing, I get it what you mean but I can play around it too, it's not impossible to counter that efficiently0 -
@Malakir said:
MhhBurgers said:@Malakir said:
MhhBurgers said:
@Malakir said: ScottJund said:
Why would he ever use Feral frenzy unless he saw you? Who cares about scratches. Dude, after he hits you I mean..
Do you even know how legion works? Or scratch marks? Dude, frenzy over=scratchmarks again, also you can use bloodhound and NEVER lose a survivor unless he's no mither. Not in the same Sprint plus before you find me with that I already mended Idk why all these theory crafting when it doesn't happen in a real scenario where you can Sprint away, get a safe spot and mend
Even when not mending completely just force to chase running in his face for a split second and the bar won't go down. I did this many times, idk why you don't do that too
How would I not find you with big bright red blood dots just to follow, dafuck? I use sloppy butcher too since I play w/o sound so there's no way to lose me.
I said "before you find me", you might I'm not saying you totally won't but even if so I had time to totally mend or close to if you play well the map layout
I even mentioned getting to a safe spot to force the chase again. Read the whole thing, I get it what you mean but I can play around it too, it's not impossible to counter that efficiently
all it takes for me is to break the chase for around 10 secs and the next hit will down you, looking on the ground is only neccesary if the survivor didn't gain much distance after the hit. If I so much as break a pallet after the hit or stand still for a few secs to let you gain some distance I will have my power up again once I reach you.
Mending takes more than 10 secs dude, either that or you didn't get much distance and will get hit.
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Just had a guy which I could not hit since I didn't use duration addons and no powerful addons, this killer is a joke. He goes from broken to ######### depending on what you're bringing. The game is already WAY more grindy that friggin warthunder and esp as a killer close to unplayable unless you put in thousands of hours, using sprint seems to be worthless when they just loop you around pallets instead of using windows, you have to stop at the pallet and that split second basically is enough for your power to run out unless you caught up to them in the first place which means this guy is loopable even tho he can jump windows/pallets if he uses no addons. gg devs.
I'm at a point where I'd probably pay an additional 20 bucks to unlock all perks on a killer just to be ######### done with the ######### grind.
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Screw easy games, there's a reason they are rated E. Fun is all fine and well, but it is also linked to a players performance. In a game where the only option is 1v4, competitive viability is a big deal. No we don't need top tier every release, but a character that can perform at any rank is far more enjoyable and worth the purchase.4
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New pallets? You mean the ones that no longer teleport you or grant invincibility? They still stun fine for me if you time it right. Yes, he has little counterplay in a chase, but ONLY in a chase. A chase that still takes just about half a minute to complete. Outside of that, he has almost nothing BUT counterplay.ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
Besides, when we consider changing things to ensure survivors have fun, we get Freddy, and Trapper and Leatherface and Clown. Huntress, Hillbilly and Hag have counterplay, yet they are among the strongest killers in the game. How could that be? Because they didn't wrap the survivors in bubble wrap with reflective tape before sending them out against that killer.2 -
@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
New pallets? You mean the ones that no longer teleport you or grant invincibility? They still stun fine for me if you time it right. Yes, he has little counterplay in a chase, but ONLY in a chase. A chase that still takes just about half a minute to complete. Outside of that, he has almost nothing BUT counterplay.
Besides, when we consider changing things to ensure survivors have fun, we get Freddy, and Trapper and Leatherface and Clown. Huntress, Hillbilly and Hag have counterplay, yet they are among the strongest killers in the game. How could that be? Because they didn't wrap the survivors in bubble wrap with reflective tape before sending them out against that killer.
My point is it does not take half a minute to complete with Frank's Mixtape, which people are saying should be default. It takes literally one recharge of your power which is like 10-15 seconds.
Again none of this counters my point about the extreme lack of fun. You even said it yourself, no real counterplay in a chase, which is the only part the involves the other survivors. So you're saying every single time a survivor is in a chase, he pretty much has no options, which is awful game design.
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@Malakir said:
ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
Or be able to lose the killer or be stealthy
Y'kno, no scratchmarks either
People seem to forget that. They claim Spirit's ability is weaker because Spirit can't see survivors, but she can see scratch marks. Lose sight of a survivor while frenzied and if they have half a brain they can get away.
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Legion not seeing scratches has been my greatest advantage against them. A legion that doesn't tightly check their corners is foolishly easy to lose. Tall grass & obstacles make legion post-frenzy look like its an Easter egg hunt.1
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Yes, it would take 15 seconds with Franks as base, instead of twice that without it, which would be 30 seconds or half a minute. I did not mention Franks when I said half a minute.ScottJund said:@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
New pallets? You mean the ones that no longer teleport you or grant invincibility? They still stun fine for me if you time it right. Yes, he has little counterplay in a chase, but ONLY in a chase. A chase that still takes just about half a minute to complete. Outside of that, he has almost nothing BUT counterplay.
Besides, when we consider changing things to ensure survivors have fun, we get Freddy, and Trapper and Leatherface and Clown. Huntress, Hillbilly and Hag have counterplay, yet they are among the strongest killers in the game. How could that be? Because they didn't wrap the survivors in bubble wrap with reflective tape before sending them out against that killer.
My point is it does not take half a minute to complete with Frank's Mixtape, which people are saying should be default. It takes literally one recharge of your power which is like 10-15 seconds.
Again none of this counters my point about the extreme lack of fun. You even said it yourself, no real counterplay in a chase, which is the only part the involves the other survivors. So you're saying every single time a survivor is in a chase, he pretty much has no options, which is awful game design.
I get that he is unfun to play against, but that shouldn't be the only point to focus on when designing a killer. Again, when we do that, we get killers like Trapper and Leatherface, who were designed to have lots of counterplay with survivor fun as the focus. However, by doing this, you make a killer that no one enjoys playing, so survivors have to keep facing Nurse or Hillbilly 50% of the time. In turn, that reduces survivor fun.
Your point stands, but it is a poor point to judge an extreme amount of decisions off of. There is a lot of things that need to be considered for this killer.0 -
If you go and read all them crying threads (not only legion specific ones) you will see how wrong you are with that title.
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Read what? The threads on here? I wouldn't call this forum an accurate representation of the most knowledged players. As in, players who know the most about the game.BigBubs said:If you go and read all them crying threads (not only legion specific ones) you will see how wrong you are with that title.
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So many people will say "killah wntz fr3e 4kahs!"
They don't understand that we just want to be able to have a chance to win. I wouldn't mind looping so much if genrush were to get nerfed.0 -
@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
BigBubs said:If you go and read all them crying threads (not only legion specific ones) you will see how wrong you are with that title.
Read what? The threads on here? I wouldn't call this forum an accurate representation of the most knowledged players. As in, players who know the most about the game.
Enough crybabies who want their easy wins would cry about anything.
I started playing this game a week after release , and believe me I've seen enough killer and survivor crying threads.
I mean , look at all the "new killer is XXXX" on day one...All I'm saying is - saying that no one wants free wins is very inaccurate.
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@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
So many people will say "killah wntz fr3e 4kahs!"They don't understand that we just want to be able to have a chance to win. I wouldn't mind looping so much if genrush were to get nerfed.
And yet so many come and complain about not getting their 4k every game and whine about hatch escape.
3 kills is not a win , right? xD1 -
"All killer want is a chance to wiiiin!!!!"
Yet... the data released recently shows the killers have a ~60% kill rate.... Ummm. how much more of a chance are you asking for here?
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@Hex_A_Decimal said:
"All killer want is a chance to wiiiin!!!!"Yet... the data released recently shows the killers have a ~60% kill rate.... Ummm. how much more of a chance are you asking for here?
That data is borked. Disconnects, suicides, and event related deaths throw it off. We don't have untainted data that I know of, and disconnects, suicides, and death farming don't really count as killers generally like them less.
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@Rebel_Raven said:
@Hex_A_Decimal said:
"All killer want is a chance to wiiiin!!!!"Yet... the data released recently shows the killers have a ~60% kill rate.... Ummm. how much more of a chance are you asking for here?
That data is borked. Disconnects, suicides, and event related deaths throw it off. We don't have untainted data that I know of, and disconnects, suicides, and death farming don't really count as killers generally like them less.
Here's some data excluding a lot of what you probably don't want included:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8901x5/monday_dev_qa_thread_april_02_2018/dwqw9pa/I'll try to find information around the other graphic I've seen
OH, NOTE: And that's only Rank 1 through 5.... where the top-tier meta-build toxic survivors like to flourish... not including lower ranks where killers have an intrinsic advantage against survivors who haven't learned how to troll.
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@Hex_A_Decimal said:
@Rebel_Raven said:
@Hex_A_Decimal said:
"All killer want is a chance to wiiiin!!!!"Yet... the data released recently shows the killers have a ~60% kill rate.... Ummm. how much more of a chance are you asking for here?
That data is borked. Disconnects, suicides, and event related deaths throw it off. We don't have untainted data that I know of, and disconnects, suicides, and death farming don't really count as killers generally like them less.
Here's some data excluding a lot of what you probably don't want included:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8901x5/monday_dev_qa_thread_april_02_2018/dwqw9pa/I'll try to find information around the other graphic I've seen
OH, NOTE: And that's only Rank 1 through 5.... where the top-tier meta-build toxic survivors like to flourish... not including lower ranks where killers have an intrinsic advantage against survivors who haven't learned how to troll.
Well, that data is 8 months old. It doesn't even have Spirit. Legion, I'd forgive, but Spirit? Nope.
Moreover it still seems fuzzy about if disconnects were factored in or not.
Also suicides are an issue, still. If a killer kills 3 people before 2 gens are done, and the 4th gives up, is that really a kill? If there's an unexpectedly bad connection, and the survivor gives up, or botches is that a kill?
It's also where omega blink nurses thrive, too, I'm sure. The game is different in upper ranks.
And like you said, it entirely discounts 3/4 of the ranks where odds are most people play for assorted reasons.
That data is basically useless. Outdated. Tainted. Incomplete.
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lmfao
So... you think that not including another killer (one who's widely considered to be one of the most formidable, comparing her to Nurse & Billy) would actually skew the data AWAY from Killers having a 60% win rate?
Please tell me you're trolling or that you just didn't think that through?
Also, the question was asked so as not to include DCs.. I don't call that fuzzy.
Next, unless you literally feel there's just an epidemic of suicides on hooks (which even 2-figure hours into the game, you would see isn't really a widespread issue), that doesn't factor in to any substantial degree.
Also, having spent a season in rank 1 - I don't feel the nurses are any better there than rank 10. Once you can hit a blink, you can hit a blink. A blink is a blink is a blink. lol
I'm sort of thinking you're just arguing for the sake of trying to argue just to avoid acknowledging that released metrics show the killers don't have it as rough as they claim to.
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Have you ever seen me on here begging for 4k's?BigBubs said:@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
So many people will say "killah wntz fr3e 4kahs!"They don't understand that we just want to be able to have a chance to win. I wouldn't mind looping so much if genrush were to get nerfed.
And yet so many come and complain about not getting their 4k every game and whine about hatch escape.
3 kills is not a win , right? xD0 -
*looks at forums, sees all the Survivor complaining about Killers being OP, unfair, bad sports*BigBubs said:@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
So many people will say "killah wntz fr3e 4kahs!"They don't understand that we just want to be able to have a chance to win. I wouldn't mind looping so much if genrush were to get nerfed.
And yet so many come and complain about not getting their 4k every game and whine about hatch escape.
3 kills is not a win , right? xD
*looks at forums again, sees Killers asking for some tweaks/small buffs for Legion and a few Perks looked at*
Yeah, sorry you're not even close to the mark. The real story is people playing Survivor want the Killer to their rules/way and blame Killers when they capitalize on bad plays/potato'ing. While Killers want certain Killers and Perks to be looked at and something done about SWF situations...not even once about demanding 4ks all the time...4 -
I'm thinking you're arguing just to argue as well.Hex_A_Decimal said:lmfao
So... you think that not including another killer (one who's widely considered to be one of the most formidable, comparing her to Nurse & Billy) would actually skew the data AWAY from Killers having a 60% win rate?
Please tell me you're trolling or that you just didn't think that through?
Also, the question was asked so as not to include DCs.. I don't call that fuzzy.
Next, unless you literally feel there's just an epidemic of suicides on hooks (which even 2-figure hours into the game, you would see isn't really a widespread issue), that doesn't factor in to any substantial degree.
Also, having spent a season in rank 1 - I don't feel the nurses are any better there than rank 10. Once you can hit a blink, you can hit a blink. A blink is a blink is a blink. lol
I'm sort of thinking you're just arguing for the sake of trying to argue just to avoid acknowledging that released metrics show the killers don't have it as rough as they claim to.
A lot can change in this game in 8 months. Especially in terms of balance.
I cannot believe you're putting in so much stock in outdated, incomplete, and skewed data that you want to take it as gospel, and expect others to.
I thought you loved data? Surely you'd want it to be more recent with all the changes that happened.
Individual killers can get their rates adjusted over the span of 8 months. Players get smarter, learn how to counter. If there are more long term players than newbies now than layer then more people playing would know how to counter which can drop a killers kill rate.
I.e. people becoming more used to hag, or trapper traps and thus hurting the odds of being caught.
The question was asked, but did the data get updated as to notninclude DCs? They asked that very question in the thread. No definitive answer was given.
Uhm, yes, lets consider suicides? Suicides on hook happened a lot in the halloween event, and I imagine most events where a survivor did not have to stay the entire match length.
Then there are thosed faced with bad connections, trolling, rage quits, etc.
Account for those. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Your opinion on nurse doesn't mean much to the data. Opinions need to be excluded to prevent bias.
And lastly you overlooked the huge fault in the data. It's arguably less than 1/4 the players in the game as survivors and killers are known to depip on purpose to have more fun in lower ranks.
Why else would there be so many anecdotes of people doing this, and people complaining about higher wait times at high ranks?
And you're asking me to take this as representing the entire game? Lol
Regardless, you can't defend the data from me. My stance remains. Get fresher, more complete data, and you have my attention.2 -
Guys no fighting the game needs both survivors and killers so I don't want to hear any salt or trolling on the other side. Those are problems that the devs are trying to fix. Just say what needs to be fixed in a calm manner because the devs are less likely to take you seriously if you're shouting over one another.0
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Just work on gens sure it's hard not possible I should know as I've been in that situation as the only one to load in and I managed to have a decent game with the killer hitting multiple gens and stuffRebel_Raven said:@Hex_A_Decimal said:
@Rebel_Raven said:
@Hex_A_Decimal said:
"All killer want is a chance to wiiiin!!!!"Yet... the data released recently shows the killers have a ~60% kill rate.... Ummm. how much more of a chance are you asking for here?
That data is borked. Disconnects, suicides, and event related deaths throw it off. We don't have untainted data that I know of, and disconnects, suicides, and death farming don't really count as killers generally like them less.
Here's some data excluding a lot of what you probably don't want included:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8901x5/monday_dev_qa_thread_april_02_2018/dwqw9pa/I'll try to find information around the other graphic I've seen
OH, NOTE: And that's only Rank 1 through 5.... where the top-tier meta-build toxic survivors like to flourish... not including lower ranks where killers have an intrinsic advantage against survivors who haven't learned how to troll.
Well, that data is 8 months old. It doesn't even have Spirit. Legion, I'd forgive, but Spirit? Nope.
Moreover it still seems fuzzy about if disconnects were factored in or not.
Also suicides are an issue, still. If a killer kills 3 people before 2 gens are done, and the 4th gives up, is that really a kill? If there's an unexpectedly bad connection, and the survivor gives up, or botches is that a kill?
It's also where omega blink nurses thrive, too, I'm sure. The game is different in upper ranks.
And like you said, it entirely discounts 3/4 of the ranks where odds are most people play for assorted reasons.
That data is basically useless. Outdated. Tainted. Incomplete.
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Its funny how a 40% escape rate is quickly falsely translated into a 60% killrate
Those 60% are disconnects, left the game, not loaded survivors, legitimate kills and hook suicides of survivors who gave up or simply raged on their first hook its a pity you cannot even tell how many sacrifices are intentional suicides.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Its funny how a 40% escape rate is quickly falsely translated into a 60% killrateThose 60% are disconnects, left the game, not loaded survivors, legitimate kills and hook suicides of survivors who gave up or simply raged on their first hook its a pity you cannot even tell how many sacrifices are intentional suicides.
The question which the devs responded to included the following criteria:
- High Rank (Ranks 1-5)
- Excludes games that have less than 4 survivors spawn.
- Only counts sacrifices as kills; meaning it excludes DC's and Mori's from adding to the kill list.
- Specifically excludes games where NOED is used.
The fact is, this is the most currently released data, with the most specifics requests for excluded data that has been released, and is generally consistent overall with the information released last month...
Sources:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407401461014593567/512705687101636623/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407401461014593567/512705903301099520/unknown.png
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/89qgtj/r1r5_killer_stats_without_dcs_moris_and_noed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8901x5/monday_dev_qa_thread_april_02_2018/1 -
@ScottJund said:
@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
what part of his power would have too hit you two more times still did you forget?
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@ScottJund said:
@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
New pallets? You mean the ones that no longer teleport you or grant invincibility? They still stun fine for me if you time it right. Yes, he has little counterplay in a chase, but ONLY in a chase. A chase that still takes just about half a minute to complete. Outside of that, he has almost nothing BUT counterplay.
Besides, when we consider changing things to ensure survivors have fun, we get Freddy, and Trapper and Leatherface and Clown. Huntress, Hillbilly and Hag have counterplay, yet they are among the strongest killers in the game. How could that be? Because they didn't wrap the survivors in bubble wrap with reflective tape before sending them out against that killer.
My point is it does not take half a minute to complete with Frank's Mixtape, which people are saying should be default. It takes literally one recharge of your power which is like 10-15 seconds.
Again none of this counters my point about the extreme lack of fun. You even said it yourself, no real counterplay in a chase, which is the only part the involves the other survivors. So you're saying every single time a survivor is in a chase, he pretty much has no options, which is awful game design.
God forbid the fact every other killer can down you in two hits so why should'nt legion be able too as well right?
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I must have missed the part where other killers can vault windows and pallets as fast as survivors.AlexAnarchy said:@ScottJund said:
@Yaboi_Gengarboi said:
ScottJund said:@Caretaker said:
@ScottJund said:
I'm sorry but have you ever played Survivor against Frank's mixtape? It is literally the most non-interactive boring ######### in this entire game. You get hit by an unavoidable frenzy hit, they wait 12 seconds for cooldown, then hit you again with an unavoidable frenzy hit and you go down.
You have to be crazy to think that has to be baseline.
I forgot you can't bait pallets or stun them. Rip my idea. I guess only Nurse or Billy is allowed to do it.
Okay so you wait at a pallet. He runs near it, then runs back. You waste the pallet, he vaults it, and you die.
You wait at a pallet. He just lunges through it and you die.
You wait a pallet. You drop it, he swings through, and with new pallets he downs you anyway and gets stunned.
You wait at a pallet. You drop it and actually stun him.
You win 25% of these scenarios.
This is assuming you even have a pallet in 12 seconds.
New pallets? You mean the ones that no longer teleport you or grant invincibility? They still stun fine for me if you time it right. Yes, he has little counterplay in a chase, but ONLY in a chase. A chase that still takes just about half a minute to complete. Outside of that, he has almost nothing BUT counterplay.
Besides, when we consider changing things to ensure survivors have fun, we get Freddy, and Trapper and Leatherface and Clown. Huntress, Hillbilly and Hag have counterplay, yet they are among the strongest killers in the game. How could that be? Because they didn't wrap the survivors in bubble wrap with reflective tape before sending them out against that killer.
My point is it does not take half a minute to complete with Frank's Mixtape, which people are saying should be default. It takes literally one recharge of your power which is like 10-15 seconds.
Again none of this counters my point about the extreme lack of fun. You even said it yourself, no real counterplay in a chase, which is the only part the involves the other survivors. So you're saying every single time a survivor is in a chase, he pretty much has no options, which is awful game design.
God forbid the fact every other killer can down you in two hits so why should'nt legion be able too as well right?
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I've been asking everyone I know that's dealt with Frank's Mix Tape how they fared. Pretty much every single one escaped. Maybe 1, possibly 2 deaths, especially if they camped, but they had no issues. Just said it was an intense game sorta like going against Nurse. Just gotta play differently, stealth, etc. A lot better than Legion's just cheesing the bleedout which Frank's would encourage them not to do. Considering that's the main thing people don't like I don't see the problem.
All he has is chase, and weak stall. That's it. Why can't he just excel at chases? He can't track, he loses tracking when Frenzying. You can still multi-hit. God forbid people stealth, or try to bait pallets, or try something new. You get 6 hits, 9 with Franks, and 3 hooks each. That's plenty of time to do gens and escape. Sure someone might die, maybe two, but isn't that the point? Isn't that the balance they want?
I also remember the devs stating they want chases to end quickly. They shouldn't be dragging out. Don't see why a killer who excels at chasing is such an issue when we bring up ending them quickly.
Edit: Make it so TR stops the bleedout timer to prevent people moonwalk cheesing.
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@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
BigBubs said:@Doc_W__HOLLIDAY said:
So many people will say "killah wntz fr3e 4kahs!"
They don't understand that we just want to be able to have a chance to win. I wouldn't mind looping so much if genrush were to get nerfed.
And yet so many come and complain about not getting their 4k every game and whine about hatch escape.
3 kills is not a win , right? xD
Have you ever seen me on here begging for 4k's?
And where have you seen me saying "you"?
Please read again what I've said.0 -
I agree with caretaker, a chase according to devs should last about 40 seconds MAX. Downing ppl with franklin's mixtape will take around 30 seconds, ofc you will get downed no matter what you do but on the other side you also cannot really ######### up against him and will not go down in for example 10 secs like against a myers or wraith who outmindgame you etc.
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