For how long we gonna have weak killers?
Since oni or maybe twins the killers suffered a huge downgrade in comparison to the top tier, like nemesis and trickester are the newest and the weakest of the game, and pinhead maybe is on this same way. For how long this will continue? Making weak killers just to not enrage the survivor entitled community. I am not a dev, but the lack of strong and creative powers will suddenly dawn this game.
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I agree, tho i play a LOT of Nemesis and he's pretty strong once you get the hang of his whippy.
Trickster is garbage and just needs a buff, an Actual buff
But someone who sees that a majority of the killer powers are weak.
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The new idea is to release a killer that's a bit weaker then work on tweaks after they can see how they perform. The next chapter has some Nemesis changes and I'm sure the midchapter will have more. Every update since released has had some trickster changes, he feels a bit better but for a ranged killer there's literally no topping Huntress so I don't know why they bother.
Hopefully Pinhead won't feel like trash upon release but we'll see.
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How do you compensate the distance of the first whipps? i trying to use him properly too
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The problem i see is that the concept of the power, the intent, are no match for a sweaty competitive match, mostly have more downsides then upsides.
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For the foreseeable future... sad to say
And it will take more time to make changes
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True enough, it's not a great system. I'd rather they release a killer with a higher skill floor that can do amazing with the effort like Nurse, Blight, and Oni not killers with high skill floors and low skill ceilings that can't do ######### like Depipster and Twins. When your killers power is splitting map pressure and the best use most players get out of them is to camp or mass slug they're a badly implemented killer. Or when they're a ranged killer that takes 4times as much to get a down with only downsides to using their power and a speed debuff because "reasons", they're not just badly implemented but badly designed.
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Nemesis is not weak but he is fair in an unfair game were being fair can get you punish hard. That the only reason you say he is weak honestly i think
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I'd be fine with the approach if they were quicker about it and didn't seem to completely rely on data to confirm obvious mechanical defects with the killers. Nobody in their right mind thought Trickster was ok on release for obvious reasons. Didn't need a month and a half to see that. Same thing with Nemesis. The midchapter is going to tweak his tier 3 but the elephant in the room is still 8 free health states he gives out. They'll probably arrive at the correct conclusion eventually, it just shouldn't take this long for devs to identify mechanical issues in a 5 year old game with an established meta.
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The majority of the weakest killers (Trapper, Pig, Myers) are pretty old. Yeah, Nemesis and Trickster are a bit on the weaker side, but Blight was a god tier killer and Twins was a solid high A. Deathslinger and Pyramid Head were also quite strong.
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Tbh I gave up on this game for making killer fun, their kits are so barebones and usually have to many downsides for petty reason. I know lots of online games with over 100s of unique characters and abilities compared to dbd. I like double jumping and wall climbing and one shot squishy characters with dragon blade.
I can’t ever a imagine a killer that can double jump or wall climb in this game, tracer and nurse both basically the same ability but you don’t see support main complain about getting gunned down by a tiny hard to hit woman the can chain 3 blinks (4 if you count her rewind)
dbd only saving grace is other famous licenses, just look at how famous smash bros is. Once other companies figured out that having famous mascots in your game is the real money maker dbd will crumble.
its sad to say but killers will probably be weak forever, heck people even complain about tombstone Myers the only killer that can actually feel strong and fun to play
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it does take that long because dev do not play their game. most of dev are rank 20. This is actually pretty normal in game development because creating content is an opportunity cost to developing/coding the game. Usually there is seperate department known as "Quality Assurance" and this department is responsible for playtesting the killer and giving feedback to the programmer/developer.
from looking at bvhr. I would say that bvhr either has no quality assurance or quality assurance is pretty bad. having bad quality assurance means that your new content becomes half-baked, so its pretty normal that most of the killers end up being pretty bad. on top of that, they don't take much community feedback so there is that.
for OP, It will probably continue for long time.
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Twins only power is to camp. That doesn't make them A tier. Unless you consider insidious basement bubba A tier.
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The issue is that the devs keep releasing killers with easy counters or downsides to using their power, and it's been this way since the beginning basically. Here's all the ones I can come up with:
Trapper: disarmable traps.
Wraith: lightburn.
Hillbilly: overheat.
Nurse: blink charge cooldown, fatigue after using power.
Hag: flashlights destroy traps, traps don't activate for crouched survivors.
Leatherface: overheat.
Freddy: clocks, missing skill checks, waking up normally, slows down when placing snares.
Pig: headtrap RNG.
Clown: yellow bottles can speed up THE SURVIVORS.
Spirit: can't see survivors in her ability.
Legion: fatigue after using power, power goes away after 1 miss.
Plague: cleansing fountains.
Ghost Face: can be revealed.
Demogorgon: portals can be destroyed.
Deathslinger: chain can be broken.
Pyramid Head: torment cured by uncaging someone, trail doesn't affect crouched survivors.
Blight: fatigue after using power.
Twins: Victor can be kicked or taken hostage.
Trickster: knives DECAY automatically.
Nemesis: T-virus cures, killable zombies, sprint burst just from infection.
(I'm gonna cheat here) Pinhead: chains can be broken instantly by the environment and HIMSELF, cooldown on power, puzzle box cures everyone, teleport only available AFTER puzzle box has already been solved.
Like, am I missing something here? Why are the devs playing so safe with the killers' designs? Why do most of these weaknesses and downsides even exist? You might be able to justify some of them MAYBE, but you can't justify the majority.
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Seeing how for 80% of the so called weak killers is more the community having unrealistic expectations probably never.
Not being tournament viable does not mean weak when the difference between normal matches and tournament matches are night and day.
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This game thrives on attracting new players by getting the rights to a licensed franchise. Then tricking them into thinking they are the power role by playing killer. Only to be thrown to the wolves the moment they leave rank 17 so cosmetic buying swfs(the devs true favored customers) can have someone to bully. I honestly think the creation of strong killers was a fluke. When Spirit and Blight were on the ptb, I didn't think they would be strong. I thought they would be weak. I highly doubt the devs anticipated this either.
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It all depends on if they want to take the balance more seriously at higher levels. Mmr suggests they do. But we would need to wait for that to become permanent and settle as maybe the developers genuinely believe what some of the people here do. Rofl. You never know.
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this is called balance, but go off.
People, stop asking for iWin buttons.
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I agree on Trickster.
For Nemesis & Pinhead, they may weak in chase but they have free pressure from Zombies & Chains. Even though Zombies arent consistent and holding the box should also come with incapacitated along with oblivious so they just not holding the box for nothing.
I hope there are more Killers like this in the future.
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The thing is that, with license characters they are quite limited in what they can do whit them (powerwise).
I played pinhead like 3 times during the ptb (mostly due to the long queues to find a match). Animation wise is great, but in terms of power he is really weak, but as i say it was the ptb so it could change.
On the other hand, with original killers i think the problem is thay the actual "meta" is very gen control based, so any idea of a killer that dosn't revolve about having map pressure and control will suck.
And if the killer has it most likely it will be kind of a nurse 2, spirit 2, etc in terms of gameplay, wich will be also boring at the end.
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thats so true .. nemesis is so strong and fast .. after 300 hours playing.. we lose 4 k every time we go against him .. well .. rearly he got 3 k
he so fast !! .. kinda no way u win the chase .. he down u so fast
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Their power is to camp while also pressuring gens, unlike Insidious Bubba. Twins are a Hag on steroids because Victor is way better at chases.
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You get a feel for it. Try and hit them from close range in tight corridors or corners, since survivors move in predictable lines that makes it easier to hit them with the whip. In most loops you always have about a 4-5m distance between you and the survivor so you should always be able to hit them if they commit to an animation. Just keep whipping and you'll build a muscle memory for the distances.
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Nemesis is not weak, you just need to get to level 2 whip ASAP. That means you need to whip two survivors, and don't really chase them until that happens.
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Nothing wrong with having weak killers really. I’d rather have a weak unique killer than” Mr hits you over pallet and window” number 74
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Whilst there are definitely more viable killers than others, I'd hasten to add a killer is only as weak as you play it. Trapper is easily the most restrictive of killers, and yet under the right playstyle and technique he is extremely deadly. It depends on how far a player wishes to challenge themself to learn a killer and become brilliant, or whether they'd prefer a killer which has a better chance at winning from the get go.
Eitherway, the game is there to cater for both those and anyone inbetween.
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Until they get good I guess
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Then why are there no Twins around? They must have the lowest pick rate right now.
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By your logic Legion and Trapper are very strong killers because you see them all the time. Pick rates don't relate to how strong a killer is.
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Forever and always. Devs balance killer either too slow or in wrong way.
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Pinhead is in such a much better state than Nemesis and Trickster because the concept for Pinhead is so much better.
Nemesis was a poor pick, if it was a pick, and extremely poorly designed.
Trickster needs to be 115%, there's no reason he can't be 115% or a reason why he should be 110%. He needs multiple hits not 1 one there's no reason to think he is strong in chases or can snipe people from far away, he isn't a precision killer yet BHVR makes him slow fire rate, high recoil, he's supposed to be spamming not precisioning 6 blades, how is this hard to understand. Tricksters main strength is punishing altruism, when the survivors are grouped up that's when Trickster can do damage but BHVR nerfed that with the 30 hit requirement of Main Event... Anyone who says Trickster has been getting buffs is dead wrong. Main Event is more useless and even harder to get and looping/chasing is so in survivors advantage because he is a 110% killer. hitting 8 or 6 Blades is the same difficulty when you factor in move speed, throw rate, recoil, extra slowdwn when aiming. Trickster needs some serious tweaks. With real tweaks he'd be a much better killer but for now he only has potential, same as Ghostface, Myers, Legion, huge potential but too manny weaknesses that need to be adressed.
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So Twins are super strong, but no one wants to play them.
Makes sense
/not
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In General killer is never advantageous to play over Survivor.
Chasing keeps getting worse and worse, the Maps are garbage in terms of size, in terms of loops and then the added RNG, then there's gaps and delays and faster decay on scratch marks, there's lack of direction on scratch marks, Iron Will removes sounds, footsteps either have sound or no sound, chase music hinders killers ability to hear IF and WHEN there is any sound to track, Loud Noise Bubble notifications are above every other sound. Chasing for killers is not good, it's still the only fun aspect of the game for killers but it's definetly not advantageous to killer.
The fact is Shift W or Looping is always advantageous to survivors. They can loop more efficiently, they decide when they throw the pallet, they can even sacrifice 1 health state in an unsafe loop just to get the speed boost and make it to a safer loop. Meanwhile the killer is on cooldown and slowdown from hitting the Survivor and has to chase them on a harder loop... how is this fair for any killer? Yes i know you survivors are gonna cry Nurse this Nurse that but she's the only one that can and she's the hardest to play, you're not facing that manny Nurses anymore. Oh but then you complain about Spirit...
Let me tell you about Spirit, Spirit can't chase, she's not a chaser, staying in a loop is not how you play against her. But guess what, Shift W is powerful. She can't see scratch marks without add-ons, her audio is " Bugged", it's BS it isn't Bugged, if it was bugged BHVR would have fixed it by now, it's intended since Survivors were crying over Spirit. The Stridor Nerf wasn't enough because only Spirit used Stridor but if that was the case then why Nerf a Perk nobody uses? Now IW is uncounterable. What is Spirit tracking then? Movement on Grass? Yeah good luck getting a hit when a Survivor can change direction faster than you, when they can stop moving and leave you clueless. When they can crouch walk.
You think Spirit standstill mindgames aren't fun but you Survivors stand still on corners and wait for killer to pick a side so you can go the other way. How is that not the same? What Mindgames do Long Walls have? NONE. Nothing a killer can do on a Long Wall.
Point is chasing is never advantageous to killers. Hit & Run is never advantageous to killer, if they know you're gonna run away then they don't need to feel fear, they know they are safe after you hit them. You'll never win a game by Hit & Run, they can stay injured power through the gens and you lose. I've played High MMR Wraith in the MMR test, it doesn't work, i got destroyed every game, in 1 hour i deranked twice.
Killers can only compete against the average Survivor because the average Survivor is bad and since there's a huge difference in player ratio it's much more likely you'll face the average survivor thus you can get some kills. It's not because you're doing well, it's not because the game was Balanced it's because you faced bad players. Cause better players would have exploited everything to make you lose and it's not hard at all for killers to lose...
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There's nothing wrong with having weak killers. In fact, I think that makes the game unique. Plus when MMR gets activated permanently, weak killers will always go against survivors on their level.
You just can't make a Killer like Trapper ever be as effective as a Killer like Nurse. All you do is change Trapper into Nurse and he would loose his uniqueness.
I main Trapper and I don't want Trapper to be Nurse, I want Trapper to be Trapper. He could have the trapper bag added as default add on to his kit as a buff, but I don't expect him to perform like Nurse unless you drastically rework him and then he would loose his uniqueness.
MMR will fix these issues.
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Twins were the perfect opportunity to introduce a coop mode for killers. I mean, everything is there. They just would need to pull a lever.
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I´ve only faced very very few Twins. All did the same basement camp tactic. Thats why i really don´t see their strength.
Maybe if i´d see more of them, i would change my mind. But so far, it has been only this.
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The most fun about the game is the chase (though Im not talking about chasing a survivor just freshly off hook and put them on hook again). Killer's power should not have strong chase power, but have passive pressure to other survivors, so a long chase will not punish them.
With Nemesis come with Pinhead, I feel like they're on the right path on designing Killers. Cant wait what they have next.
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I think Nemesis and Pinhead are anything BUT weak in chase, I mean nemesis can just smash through any dropped pallets and keep walking right through them in T2 and Pinhead has an unlimited built in slow from his summons of pain albeit that's a tad harder to land than a Nemesis Tentacle.
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It's like a chess game with the Twins. You position Charlotte or Victor so you have map control and use the other to down a survivor. Now Hag is the basement queen.
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Nothing has come close to nurse apart from Blight. For me there are more weaker killers than stronger ones but at mid ranks it balances out as all killers are a threat in solo que apart from low level addon less trappers, Billy's and Tricksters.
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I dont think they'll do that for a while. Imo they're tok scare to add strong killers. That's why every killer has alot of counters these days
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The fear of loose survivor playerbase is the problem that afects killer playerbase, that have no choice but to play the same top tier killers or play another one and loose badly.
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It makes way more sense than your flawed logic of thinking pick rate has anything to do with how strong a killer is.
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Probably because their playstyle is so different from most normal killers. Just like hag who is very strong but quite rare to encounter.
People tend to gravitate to as simple as possible killers who are also as strong as possible. Thus the usual outcry over relative simple strong killers = wraith, freddy, spirit etc
As twins, you have to constantly manage two characters and know when and how to use them properly, make constant decision on when it's good time to slug and do it without beiing slow or missing too, you have to utilise camping well which people dislike on both sides otherwise you'll get more inefficent with your time management and probably one of the biggest contributor imo to low twins pick rate, missing as victor and getting crushed feels so incredibly bad. Killers hate when survivors bully them and baby victor (pun intended) is very easy to bully as new victors will miss and get crushed thus gen rushed all the time.
But then when you see twins mains (as rare as they are) or very experienced players who know how to play twins and how they operate, rating twins, they always rare them quite high, usually A tier or very high B tier.
Considering all that, I don't think it's weird that people wouldn't play twins very much even when they're strong. Just like nurse who used to be much easier to play but then dropped a lot in popularity because devs made her more punishing when you make a mistake.
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The first whip is the distance of a normal attack with Lunge.
Honestly the best playstyle I find for him is to run Corrupt Intervention. Go to the survivors, push one into locking themselves in an animation (Pallet or Window), or in a corridor. Whip, then immediately drop chase to go after another survivor the same way. When you whip 2 healthy survivors into infected (even without add-ons) you get Level 2, and can break pallets. When you get used to it, normally this only takes half the time of Corrupt so you can still get a down and hook off the second survivor you chase before running out of Corrupt.
Ideally every game by the end of corrupt you want level 2 and a hooked survivor. That's a lot of pressure with your 2 zombies walking around being butts to floating survivors.
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That logic isn´t flawed. People usually prefer to play the strong, power role. A strong killer is more appealing than a weak one. Original Freddy was extremely weak and not many people played him. Especially not on red ranks. I mained him back then, and some people were happy to see something else than Nurse.
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Ok, i´ll give you the benefit of the doubt and will spend some considerable time playing them. Maybe i´m totally wrong and Twins aren´t as weak as i think.
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I hope you'll have fun.
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I think Nemesis is pretty good once you get the hang of him same as trickster if you're accurate with the daggers he's quiet intimidating and Pinhead well I can't really say much as I didn't do to much with him in the PTB so I guess I'll decide when he comes out
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But Trapper is the most picked...that explains why escape RNG got a nerf.
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Lets move over the last 10 "weak" killers
- Ghostface,not amazing but definitly solid
- Demogorgon, good killer, definitly not the best but far from weak.
- Oni, arguable one of the best killer in DbD
- Deathslinger, not bad at all.
- Blight, one of the strongest killer in the game
- Twins, by many rated as a good, for some even one of the best killers
- Trickster, well i think he is okay but you can make an argument
- Nemesis, one of the weakest killers? Right in the middle, not great but also not bad.
- Pinhead, well we have to see i guess
You do make a good point about killer powers, they are recently pretty much all the same and very boring, but definitly not weak.
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