How much does equipment carry you to high level?
Otzdarva said in his MMR-video that there will be lower skilled players on high level bc they bring always the strongest stuff.
Things like Mother Daughter Ring, Keys, BNP, Map offerings and even some perks.
But how much does this things really carry a player? Can a 5/10 player really get on the level of a 9/10? And is it bad if its only a fair matchup bc one side uses strong things? Is playing against this things unfun for you, even if they make the matchup fair?
I personally think everything what carries you too much, needs nerfed or other things buffed. Doesnt matter, if its iridescent.
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I’d say certain builds can definitely carry you. Blight’s who run the basic blight build often aren’t good with his power and use the perks to compensate
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I hoard items on survivor and addons on killer. Only use addons/items when I want to do a fun build (e.g. jumpscare Myers, crossmap Billy etc.).
If you play without addons for a long time you find out that you don't actually need them if you learn to use your power. My opinion is that they are there to change up the mechanics of your power and make the game feel different - not to make you stronger
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I don't understand why it is a problem.
There is no race to get the highest MMR... If you have higher MMR only because of better perk choice, stronger add-ons or items, so be it. That's your playstyle.
Let me know why you think it is a problem... even Otzdarva didn't really explain why it is a problem.
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IMO someone who decides to run Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer on Blight (+Alchemist Ring to be extra spicy) or MDR on Spirit basically every game should not complain when they get strong Survivors.
In the end, you prepare for strong Survivors by using Builds like this. SBMM should save the Casual Survivors from Builds which just go over the top, unlike currently where you can obliterate a Team with said Blight-Build, just because those are a very casual SWF or some Solos.
And yes, some things really carry players.
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I think its only a problem if this strong things create an unfun game. For example keys let you skip, in my opinion, the most fun part of the game. It would be still a 2k like against more experienced survivor, but the match without the key is more fun.
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I don't use addons on my mains, I also generally use off meta but decent perks so probably not a lot
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The peek was that Brown bag brought me to rank7 with Trapper
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And thats not even half of the questions.
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So no matter how good your equipment is, you can never reach high level? Or what do you want to say with that?
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well broadly for killer it depends heavily on the killer since some killers have absurdly strong addons like blight or spirit where as some killers like nemesis has fairly meh addons at best. For survivors it will depend on how many of them bring a strong item like a med kit or a key. Just one strong item isnt gonna vastly change the course of a game but 4 can absolutely massively change the outcome. So in the extremes of both cases then they can carry you pretty heavily.
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not that much. unless it's a key. keys are busted.
wether by skill or items, if you are playing at X level, you should play against people of X level.
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Arguably everything outside of base mechanics for both killer and survivor carry. 8 stacks of STBFL might mean the difference between a game wining vault or not. A toolbox with BNP can mean completing the last gen before the killer with pop active comes over and removes 25% of it. I guess it really boils down to would you consider things like the above in need of a nerf? What do you personally feel the strength level of addons and perks should be
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Survivors in particular can be carried by a number of things, items. Perks, team mates skill, killer skill even pure luck to an extent.
At some point though skill will almost always rise to the top.
I play all survivors using only their perks on a regular basis (no items) & have an escape rate of between 60 & 70% (elodie is currently winning that battle which was a big surprise to me personally.
I also play as a meg main running dark sense, kindred, spine chill & small game usually with a med kit & again have a similar escape rate i'll have a bad run every now and again or a really good one but my level is pretty consistent regardless of anything else & until I took a couple of months off & dropped down the rankings I was almost always red ranks.
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Thats why i brought up the example about the 5/10 player against the 9/10. And the question is specific about reaching high level bc i dont think noobstomping things are really important. (For example dont nerf doctor bc beginner are screwed without stealth)
So how much can the equipment help you to reach high level in your opinion? And is it a bad thing?
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I woulf be interested how do you manage this escape rate? Arent there unwinnable matches bc of your teammates? Do you play mainly swf or need to use the hatch often? Or what is your strategy with bad teammates? Taking aggro works only for me if the killer wants me to die and i dont want to bm to accomplish that.
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I think what Otz means by people being 'carried' is that they can make a decent amount of mistakes that without certain things (Perks and Items) would result in them losing but because they ran those things, they recovered
Take medkits for example:
If a survivor messes up and gets hit but then the killer decides to leave them and chase someone else, that survivor would theoretically stay injured until they find a teammate who would take 16 seconds to heal them
UNLESS they have a green medkit that heals them in 8, or even quicker.
As for Perks, here's another example:
Let's say the Killer's playing really well and the survivors make a few mistakes early on and somehow 3 people are on the floor and the final survivor is being chased. 1 unbreakable and boom that whole situation is basically instantly reversed. If EVERYONE has unbreakable then yeah you can imagine.
And for fairness sake, this doesn't just happen for survivor. A killer example would be the classic Blight player with Ruin Undying Pop Tinkerer
You take those perks away and suddenly that Blight isn't winning nowhere near as frequently as before
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People love dogging on keys, but Medkits are pretty strong and more often decide the outcome of a match. Imagine you’re playing Wraith hit and run… you smack a survivor then leave. They heal so whenever you find them again you still need 2 hits to down them. This also bypasses the need to find a survivor to heal you or waste a perk slot on Self Care - so you also contribute to gen pressure in a way.
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Well the problem is that survivors NEED to play meta at high rank or else they can't hold the killer in chases.
Also, Killers need to play some meta perks (corrupt intervention, BBQ) to be effective. Concerning killers too, some of them needs add-ons to be able to compete against good survivors (trapper for exemple)...
The game design is perfectible... To have a better balanced game, i think that all killers add-ons should be removed and receive a buff to compensate it.
Exemple : If a survivor disables a trapper's trap, the survivor is injured, vanilla built-in the trap.
All killers should be viable at any level without add-ons. Same for perks, i think some perks should be built-in the vanilla game (corrupt intervention, BBQ) but then, some perks should be removed from the game.
Perks should give the ability to slightly change the way you play. Atm, the gameplay revolve too much around perks while it should revolve around basic abilities more.
If a perk or add-on (for killer and survivors both) is a game changer THEN there is a huge problem in the base game design. And many perks are a game changer :
- BBQ
- Corrupt Intervention
- Sprint Burst
- Dead Hard
- DS
- Iron Will
- injure disable traps
- one shot traps
- auto activate traps
- Nurse's calling
- NOED
- We'll make it
- auto-healing
etc... there are way too many game changing perks and it's impossible to balance a game like this.
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Yes - Some killers are clearly held together with training wheels.
Yes it can be quite unfun to lose to a seemingly struggling killer because a build allowed them excessive time to complete their ridiculously bad chases.
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As a survivor I use items/offerings only for challenges and as killer I tend to use green/yellow addons. I also like to experiment with builds and perks and rarely stick with one for more than a couple days, so I'd say I'm pretty much non-reliant on equipment.
As per Otzdarva's worry, I get it. But who knows, maybe SBMM takes into consideration perks, items and addons.
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I also don't understand why this is a problem. If they really are being carried by addons or items, they'll eventually run out of their carry potential and fall off, right?
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I didn’t say keys are balanced, but I see medkits way more often and they’re huge in stopping killer pressure.
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The one perk that carries me is Infectious Fright on Plague. Not sure how I’ll be able to utilize her without it.
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Its rare for me to use addons and i maintain rank 2-1. When i do use them though it is like i am using a new killer.
Trickster with iri photo and Fizz-soda or caged shoes is pure evil.
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I almost never bring in any items as a solo survivor unless there's a challenge to do so. And nerfing medkits and toolboxes has made me stop searching chests, so I spend more time just focusing on gens now. Why bother searching a chest that's going to give me dogshit?
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Well both sides can be carried by certain mechanics and things they bring into the match.
As killer, I main huntress at rank one and I never bring addons for her. Also don't bring ruin/undying, it's boring.
As survivor I never bring any items in and try to avoid the more typical survivor build.
I see a lot of killers bring meta ######### but in chase they really aren't the best but they can be carried by them perks.
Same with survivor, I witness survivors bring meta perks that give them their second chances and still go down pretty fast.
So yeah I do think by using certain perks, addons and items that it can affect how far someone can climb the ranks, or well the grading system now. Certain people won't be in grades they truly belong in.
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Some of the most broken addons can carry you as Killer. Current meta builds make the game easier too for both sides.
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I think so, too.
Fyi: The grades have nothing to do with your rating. Everyone can reach the highest grade bc its just depends on playtime.
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Yes: As survivor the one I see the most is Ruin and Tinkerer (especially on Blight).
As killer it's obviously keys.
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Couldn't agree more with this. If some people use builds that carry them to a degree, then it's arguably good they have their skill rating increased, so they face survivors that are good enough to deal with them and their builds.
It's not like people are going to be able to boast with their skill rating, as it's not even shown to the player. Not to mention that gaming skill isn't something one should ever boast about to begin with.
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I'm a little confused about the comment that Otzdarva made about this.
If nobody is aware of how the system works, and we know from the devs that it is not going to be a simple "sacrifice/escape" scenario, and that calculations are complex, how would he know this will happen at all?
I mean, unless he knows what measurements BHVR will be using, he can't do much more at this stage than make assumptions. He's in the dark as much as anyone else here.
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Map offerings are the biggest offender. Given the wide disparity on how maps play out, picking a good map for yourself as much as you can obviously will skew the system.
Now, when it comes to add-ons, items, and perks, I feel "carry" is a bogus term. The high end-level of any game will be filled with pretty much nothing but the meta. The meta doesn't carry you to high-end level, meta is the entryway to high level. Your performance with the meta will dictate how far you actually can go. That being said, when it comes to rare and powerful items and add-ons, stockpiling them can carry you for a time since it's not normal performance.
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Maps are really an important part. But even without offerings, they are in play. So an in theory fair matchup gets unfair bc an onesided map gets randomly chosen.
So i think they will need to revisit some maps anyway, if they want the mmr to work correctly. But i guess with this amount of maps, some unbalanced have not much impact on the data.
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My opinion is that you never should boost with anything, but do you care to explain whats the difference between gaming skill and chess, football etc. ?
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addons can bring you up to around rank 3-4 by themselves. Around that point people start playing optimally, and even incredibly busted stuff such as Mother Daughter+Yakuyoke Spirit or BNP+Key won't be enough on their own. Crossing the last threshold requires you to use every last drop of your kit and abilities with utmost efficiency.
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Im a little confused. Do you talk about the old emblem system (bc you mentioned rank 3-4) or about the MMR-system?
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It all depends. Take Ruin as the easiest example. If it stays up all game, you probably win. If it gets cleansed 30 seconds in and you refuse to tunnel, a team of the same skill that you just 4k'd will probably escape. In that regard, it "boosts" a killer who doesn't exert enough pressure.
But there are way too many circumstances. I just feel most people have tried ruin and you can easily tell the apples to apples difference when it is up or not.
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I play 100% solo queue tried swf (2 man) twice ever both times my swf teammate was the direct cause of my death they weren't at my level of play but still it drove me crazy i'd rather have random team mates screw me that people screaming in my ear begging for help.
I guess there are a lot of factors at play firstly & probably the most important is experience I've played the game a long time (over 3,000 hours across 5 platforms) learning what to do or more importantly what not to do certainly helps.
I'm not a great at looping I probably should be but my play style isn't about chase time never has been, I don't play immersive either but if I can avoid a chase I will (unless its to save someone else) I'll almost always put myself on the line for others.
Little things help too players (both sides) are triggered by so many things these days it's hard to keep track but I don't do that many of them so its unbelievable how many hatches & gates i'm given.
Also probably partly because when its down to 2 survivors I will always play on while my teammate hides & waits for me to die killers often respect the one who carries on far more.
I like intel perks & I don't play the meta (survivor or killer) so that helps improve too I also play with no perks a lot too it will improve players a lot if they stick with that & I love playing adept david with no mither my team might hate me but i'm currently sat at 50% escape rate with him playing injured also improves most players over time.
Sure I have games where my team litterally give the killer the game 1 minute in & sometimes the bad plays on the team come from me but as a general rule if I don't get out I'm dead first or dead last very few in between unless I sacrifice myself to get someone else out.
I actually record all my adept games they'll for various stats they were supposed to be up on you tube in June but personal stuff happened should be the first 100 or so up by October I just have to edit out waiting times ect & record in game groups of 4 at a time all survivors adept perks only (planning 300 games each survivor including new additions between this past May & the 6th Anniversary.
Will do a killer one next year with less impressive stats wanted to do both together but as I only really play 6 killers wanted to wait for match making to be "sorted out" to give killers I never use a more fair chance.
Sorry for the long winded reply that probably isn't all that helpful for the most part but at least I have evidence to back my stats up.
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I"m one of those survivors who isn't terrified to play the game injured, so taking the time to find a chest, search it and then maybe get a medkit so I can take even more time away from the objective to heal is in fact dogshit.
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If someone cannot already see why an extra health state is amazing, they probably never will.
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As a Survivor, I prefer to stay off-meta and vary my builds. I only run items when I feel it’s necessary or I’m feeling good about my flashy-saving abilities.
However, as Killer, add-ons are a NECESSITY, especially because I play Pyramid Head and his range add-ons are like drugs.
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So so much like you can be a great blight tons of experience but with no perks an addons somebody who isnt that good at blight but runs alchemist ring and compound every match with ruin undying corrupt tinkerer will probably do better than you. Same goes for a lot of killers like spirit with mother daughter or fathers glasses.
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As a survivor, normally I don't take anything. I'm fine to go without something. Sometimes, however, I like to bring a medkit or a flashlight. Medkit because sometimes your solo q teammates just REFUSE to heal. I still bring one if I swf sometimes (2 stack at most) because my friend tends to get chased, alot.
Killer, however, I ALWAYS bring add-ons for pig. I normally play with "Last Will" (Yellow addon for extra trap) and "Create of Gears" or "Bag of Gears." Sometimes I run the gear ones together but I like having an extra if someone gets a trap off too fast.
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It literally doesn't matter, the entire point of MMR is to put people into trials with opponents who could potentially win.
And besides, Otz wa smaking zero sense in that video. He kept going on about how MMR will make people play sweatier in order to increase it... Except that it's completely invisible, has no reward for increasing it, and no possible bragging rights because of a lack of verification. He doesn't seem to be thinking too clearly on the issue.
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so 5/10 player will still suck regardless of whether he uses meta perks or not. For example equipping dead hard as survivor does not make you suddenly a 9/10 survivor. The survivor already has to have high natural ability in being good at looping(make few mistakes in looping) for dead hard to be impactful.
The same can be said about killers. Pre-nerf Stridor Spirit do not need MDR to win against survivors of lower skill than them. They use those add-on to have chance to compete against stronger survivor teams. map, perks and add-on only matter when both players are of equal skill.
Otz video regarding killers and survivors using good perks is naturally going to happen. People use good perks/add-ons in current iteration of the matchmaking and I do not really see any problems with it. previously, if you were running strong builds, a lot of the time it would be overkill because of poor matchmaking. Now it should be more accurate.
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I think he says they will play sweatier bc he had this experience in the MMR-test. But we will see soon what the effect really is.
I personally want to see the rating and i dont care if its sweaty. Right now i would even prefer it over the noobstomping. But maybe i will get sick of it.
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I'm not sure what to explain? Where did I ever mention chess or football? Sorry I am not quite sure what you are getting at.
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So I’ve been curious about how much hatches are actually used, and keeping count of keys too. I’m not finished yet, but so far, in 41 matches, there has been exactly one key escape with a Key they brought in. There has also been exactly one escape with a key found on the map. To give you an idea, I’ve only been in four matches where people actually started with keys. There have been a total of five hatch escapes including those two, and not counting ones given by the killer.
Post edited by VioletCrimes on0 -
You said: "Not to mention that gaming skill isn't something one should ever boast about to begin with."
So i wanted to know whether you think you should never boast with any skill or its only the case for gaming skill. So i wanted to know how you think about boosting with your chess/football skill etc (two random examples). Do you think gaming skill is worse than other skills?
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Ah ok. No I don't think you should ever boast with any sort of skill, but especially not skill that benefits no one but you yourself. So gaming skill, football skill, whatever. Those are just games as well.
Being proud of such skill is of course understandable, but boasting about such skills and growing an ego is just ridiculous in my opinion. But it's especially ridiculous with gaming in my opinion.
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