http://dbd.game/killswitch
My Criticisms of MMR
Hello,
This is meant to facilitate meaningful discussion on some valid criticisms of the new MMR system.
Firstly, we still do not know what a win is. They make numerous references to it in their Dev Update, but BHVR refuses to define it, however, we do know that it isn't based soley off of Kills and Escapes. There are apparently other metrics involved, but we don't know what or how they are weighted. BHVR has decided to hide this information to attempt to dissuade people from abusing the system. However, that is a moot point. People will suicide on hook or go AFK/farm as Killer.
Secondly, there is no visible ranking. Having a visible ranking would do a ton of good for the system and it would allow players to see when the system may not be working as intended. There really isn't a good argument for why it shouldn't be implemented. If you don't take the game too seriously and don't mind having a lower MMR, then it shouldn't bother you to see it. If you take the game more seriously and enjoyed staying at Rank 1, this would help give you a goal to shoot for.
Thirdly, only three Killers will be viable at high MMR. This is actually more of an issue for Survivors, but it does affect everyone. The Killer variety will plummet as you get better at the game. High Ranks will only see Nurse, Spirit and Blight because every other Killer is an almost guaranteed loss. This gets old for both sides FAST and needs to be addressed. Additionally, due to the overabundance of Survivors, less experienced Killers will likely still be matched with these good Survivors due to matchmaking times which defeats the purpose of the system.
Lastly, the system doesn't differentiate between perks, add-ons, offerings or items. If you run Tinkerer, Ruin, PGTW and Corrupt on Nurse and get a 4K, it's the same thing as running perkless Nurse and getting a 4K to the system. There's no difference, despite one requiring a lot more skill. This goes for Survivor as well. The Claudette with DS, UB, SG and DH with a Red Key who gets out through Hatch would be given the same score as a Jake with only Sabo who gets out through Hatch.
Anyway, those are the things I can list off of the top of my head. I think it's important that we talk about these issues, as they are legitimate criticisms that me, and others, have shared.
Comments
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I feel like it wouldn't be such big of a deal if BHVR was more transparent about how the system works. It's just like anything else they do.
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I understand the argument they make of people abusing the system but i feel the positives of showing the metrics would outweigh this negative. I believe not everything is set in stone and its posible they make the changes people want but not if the negative responses are '' No mmr" or "only going to see these killers" since the stats they have/looking at shows that it works and is what they want.
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I thought the first part was really well done and absolutely agree. The killer variety at high levels is a balance issue, however, it has nothing to do with mmr. I wish more survivors would advocate for killer buffs since it is mostly their concern. But whatever, they reap what they sow. Nobody cares.
As for builds? That is basically the main point of mmr.
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It sort of does have something to do with MMR. As of now, you can play anyone at Rank 1. I've certainly seen plenty of variety in my Survivor games. However, once MMR roles out, we'll see certain Killers be unable to pass a certain MMR. Yes, this is fundamentally a balance issue, but it does leave zero variety at higher ranks.
MMR isn't determining skill accurately if it isn't taking into consideration the map, the RNG on said map, the build, the items/add-ons and the offedings.
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My only issue with MMR is if BHVR doesn't take the data that is given and considered and turn it into something substantial.
Other than that, I am completely fine with some of your criticisms for it. Since I don't really play to escape or kill. I'll try to get those, but I'm not someone who sweats hard to get it.
And two, if there is no visible ranking, I'll have no incentive to sweat harder. But I understand the argument of whether or not the system is working properly if we can't see the ranking.
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It’s already confirmed that the rank is hidden for now and it may (or may not) be changed in the future. What exactly is weighed into the rank is something they don’t want to tell as to not make it more easy to manipulate the system etc. Frankly, both ways would receive criticism, if they decided to make it all visible then you may be satisfied but the complains and criticisms wouldn’t be really less than now. (Still valid criticism though)
the argument about only three killers in high mmr is an assumption that’s -as far as I have seen it by streamers during testphases- just false. There will probably be more of the high tier killers, sure. But that’s already the case now, stronger killers get played more often. There are however enough killer players that can wreck coordinated/high skilled survs with lower tiered killers. And -I know this is very hopeful thinking- the system might actually help identify faults in killer designs based on how viable on which skill tier they are.
and regarding the addons/perks etc. A system that also considers this with the various combinations would be way too complex. And probably not really necessary.
and something to always remember: without SBMM we are stuck with the current faulty matchmaking system. Which doesn’t really address any of the stuff you listed either..
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And also, you know, having more of a ######### incentive to having a high MMR instead of just the fake rank emblems
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Then what was the incentive until now to be rank 1. Even more so staying there every month? Prestige? "Fame"?
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I'm really just concerned about the last 3 points. I don't care what the win condition is, it's probably a mix of all the presence you had in the game since they said that they won't only count escapes/kills. Pretty sure it will be similar to the pip system but i bet people will end up figuring out the exact impact of the actions you do have in MMR.
About the visible ranking, I agree, there's no valid reason why not to tell us how well we are doing. We need to know our progression in the game or it will get stale. The "end game" reason to play without SBMM was getting big winstreaks and just ######### around some games. Now that MMR is introduced we need another end game reason, and being able to see your MMR grow seems like a good motivation to keep playing, except they won't for some unexplainable reason.
I agree with the third point completly, but we will have to wait to see how the system works. Although i bet it will kill the variety, luckily i don't think i have that high MMR as survivor to only face the same 3 killers.
About the 4th one, does it really matter? For example if you are a Demogorgon and allways play without perks and another Demogorgon with the same MMR as you uses the most busted addons and perks to get to the same point as you the result of the match is supposed to be similar on average so it is supposed to be fair for survivors that you share MMR. I understand the point that it sucks but i don't see how to fix it if some sort of perk/item/addon ban system is not introduced before the match starts.
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Honestly there needs to be 3-5 perkless matches in order to get "skill" so the game can be as fair as possible
And yes there does need to be some sort of visible "Skill" rating on the side in the character select screen or somewhere
And I am afraid of there being a bottleneck of killers (certain killers being in "high skill" matches and those who play the not so high skill killers will be stuck in the not so high skill.... But we'll wait and see)
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Implementing perk strength should be relatively easy. They could keep track of perk winrate and use that to adjust MMR gain or loss.
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Is that really what happened in the testphases though?
and… if both sides play this sweaty.. shouldn’t they have a higher chance of getting matched against eachother?
we already know due to queue times that there won’t be perfect MMR matches every match either way
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I think you should've started with the 3rd point, which is the strongest one. I'll try to come back to this to argue tomorrow but I realised I don't have time to rn to type out anything substantial. If I'm not I hope the new system treats you better than you expect
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While I like the idea of BHVR using MMR to help balance the game realistically that’s not going to happen. I think it’s just unnecessary and a waste of their time but since I felt no difference during the tests I don’t really care
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Win condition: would be nice, but im fine with playing for 4k/3ks with Hatch.
Visible ranking: we need one. 100%. I think without one i will quit after 2 chapter. I want to have a goal.
Killer: they really need to speed up their work pace. Significant changes every big patch. Use the data from the MMR.
Addons etc dont matter: its ok, but they should nerf outlier like they did before (iridescent head). Buff weak things like almost 70% of the perks. But the most important part is that every busted map needs to be toned down. Rework map rng, some tile combos are just broken.
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There wont be a meaningful discussion @Pulsar the change is hitting tomorrow. The time for talking was months ago.
Or even better as PTB Feedback, if the critique you brought up isn't addressed, it probably isn't as important.
How about we see how it goes tomorrow, Good luck.
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I don't think we need to know what the win conditions are. They're going to be similar to the emblem system, and so you'll know if the outcome of your match was a 'good' one or not, based mainly on your pip progress and bloodpoint score. What else do you need? It's not going to be a binary win/lose situation, but more likely a 'good' result (a pip) will likely increase your MMR slightly, while a 'great' result (2 pips) will probably increase your MMR a bit more. 'Safety pips' will probably more-or-less equate to a static MMR, and 'losing a pip' (or relative equivalent) will be a reduced MMR, and the exact amounts of each of them will likely also vary depending on the outcome. They're not completely redesigning the wheel here, the emblem system is still going to be a fairly decent measure.
The point of no visible ranking is so that people aren't sweating to raise their Rank/MMR. The idea behind SBMM is that it doesn't matter what your skill level is, or how quickly it increases, you will be paired with teammates/opponents of a similar skill level so that your experience is more balanced and consistent.
If you're a highly skilled player, you will know it, and you won't need to 'maintain your rank 1 status' to prove it.
Your 'sense of growth' will be the Grade progression, which will largely be an indication of how much a player has played since the last reset, or rather if that player has made progress since the last reset, which would indicate a certain amount of 'wins'.
Basically for both of your first 2 points, I find it hard to believe and experienced player won't know what a good match is and whether or not they're growing as a player. If you don't, then you are not a good player, and you still have some ways to go.
Killer balance is a big thing, and it needs to be looked at. MMR will highlight these issues much more clearly and show which killers are thriving in which MMR brackets. IF the highest level of MMR is nothing but Nurses, Spirits and Blights, then they should be addressing it, but they need MMR to do that.
Ultimately however, if there are some weaker killers, it won't matter as much, because they will settle into their skill brackets, so long as there is some more variety at the top it'll be fine. e.g. if some killers get buffed to the extent that the top MMR bracket is not just Nurse/Spirit/Blight but also Wraith, Freddy, Nemesis, Billy, Hag, Oni and Huntress... that could be just fine, that's 10 killers at least. If they can't rework the entire game to accommodate slower killers with no map pressure at higher MMR, so be it. Those killers will still get played, and more often than they are currently.
Perks and Add-ons, in an ideal world, should count. At the very least, they should account for missing perks and perk tiers. Lets say each 'perk tier' (if we consider 4 tier III perks to be 12 tiers) increases base MMR by 1%, and each add-on rarity level (brown = 1 ... red = 5) increases MMR by 1% also, a full perk build with two Iridescent add-ons should increase your MMR by 22%.
I probably wouldn't count items for survivors, because they can find items within the game anyway. So it wouldn't be fair to reduce someone's MMR because they didn't bring an item, only for them to find a purple medkit in a chest.
But this is all a bit of a moot point because unless we end up locking our loadout before we queue up, there's no way perks and items/add-ons can be a factor in MMR. The most we can do is presume that more experienced players will be using better perks/items/add-ons, which is a fair assumption and will likely end up factoring into MMR indirectly anyway.
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I was talking months ago too.
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Add-ons do matter.
You can't tell me a All-Seeing Silent Bell Wraith is the same strength as a no add-on Wraith.
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Look, judging by the test phase we KNOW what a win is:
It's showing actual skill. Meaning: no camping, no slugging and tunneling, no tricking people into thinking you are bad when you have noed waiting, no BM squads that do nothing other than trying to get the killer to DC etc.
We CAN tell from the testphase and a bit of logic.
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You have been vocal for some time, and I'm not stating that like it's a bad thing. But it's been discussed ad nauseam and BHVR has made their decisions on how it is being handled and how it's going into the Live game.
So, all the remains now is for players like yourself to who are strongly against it to make a decision: Do you keep playing DbD under BHVR's terms for the SBMM system, or do you move on to a different game?
That's the only thing left at this stage.
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BHVR also decided that the Resident Evil chapter was fine and in an acceptable state for Console players.
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Dude, I'm not defending BHVR's decision making. I'm just stating the obvious. SBMM goes live in less than 24 hours. BHVR's decisions on how it's going Live is clear at this point. It's not going to change at this point in time. At this point, it's just time to decide if you (a general "you") will continue under the SBMM as it is right now, or move on and speak with your play time and money.
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And I'm not allowed to express my opinion about the reservations I have with the proposed system?
Why would I continue to fight for Console Optimization if it's "clear BHVR has made their decision at this point."
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That's entirely based off of your opinion of skill.
I think it's likely that camping has a penalty but we literally do not know.
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Look, I don't give a flying ######### what you voice on the BHVR forums. I never told you to not voice your opinion or to not make threads. Save your victim card for someone who gives a damn about that. I stated the obvious. You want to keep yelling into the wind, do so. Tomorrow, SBMM goes live. It goes live in the form stated by BHVR. You don't like it, they made it clear they don't care. That is that.
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If you want to simply sit down and accept whatever people throw at you, far be it from me to tell you not to do so.
Your entire point is that because BHVR has made it clear that they are launching SBMM, I should simply stop criticizing it.
They ignored Console Optimization for two years and now we are finally getting somewhere, change can happen. It sure as hell took a lot of "yelling into the wind" to get that to happen.
But that's not the point of this discussion. I wanted to talk about the legitimate issues I have with the system that will go live.
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No, I don't accept whatever a game company throws at me if I am unhappy with it. I take my play time and my money and I move on to a different game. Did it with WoW after 16 years over there, will do it with Overwatch after around six years in the game when Overwatch 2 launches because I do not like the new 5v5 format or other changes they are making, have done it beyond those two games, and will likely do so again with future games.
I've long since realized that unless it affects their revenue with a big enough negative impact, a majority of game studios won't do anything that is against their internal vision. You're right, BHVR has not addressed optimization on consoles. Their obvious gamble was on NextGen upgrades being done by the players and optimization being good on them (I've no idea if it is or not, I play PC games only).
In the meantime, month after month after month of lip service to you console players. Just enough to provide a modicum of hope and keep them playing and paying.
But anyway, I'm going to walk out now. We're derailing the thread, and I know others are looking for such a conversation. Have fun in the fog.
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First: I agree, we need to know.
Second: No, that's a terrible idea. Every single casual multiplayer game or game mode in history has a SBMM system, including current DbD (that's what the pips were). Having it be visible drives sensless competitive play. People will gatekeep discussions and divide the community, forcing people to increase their score to be taken seriously no matter how intelligent, logical or empathetic they are, because that's how competition works: a minority are competitive, and through their borderline-subconsious behaviour they drive other people who would otherwise not be competitive into being competitive. This isn't specific to videogames.
TLDR: If you are mkstly getting games you could either win or lose, then the system is working.
Third: I don't care. I really don't. That's just an example of people digging their own graves. If you don't treat this game like Siege or Overwatch, you won't be there. That is less than 1% of the community. If people don't want tournament-style games, don't be sweatylords than need to never lose. Chill out. Take weaker perks. Take the game less seriously. The new system is literally designed to get competitive players out of the general population and into their own hell. Everyone else, including the kinda sweaty players, won't be there.
Lastly, IT DOESN'T ######### MATTER.
Yes, that was a shout and some swearing, because the system isn't designed to make the game competitive. I really need to make sure that that statement gets through to people: it doesn't matter if you're using weaker perks than the next person. The point is having fairer trials, and this isn't a competitive game so YOUR SKILL DOESNT MATTER. Only the outcome. Admittedly, I'm not too happy about that, but that's just how it is and if I could let go of my desire to see my skill reflected in my teammates and opponents, you can to.
Edit: I'm serious about point 3. It's just the poeple that have to always be swfing and always run the strongest builds that will be there.
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Who cares about fair if it isn't fun for people playing the game?
I absolutely think BHVR is toeing the line between casual and competitive. SBMM IS a feature in all competitive games. You know what game didn't have SBMM? Call of Duty. As soon as they implemented it they started to move to a more competitive-minded game.
If the system doesn't take important variables into consideration, like maps and their RNG, then this system is just as flawed as the old one.
Also, they are essentially giving a huge middle finger to anyone who actually IS competitive and plays to win. Just like meme'ing is a valid playstyle, so is taking the game more seriously and I feel compelled after reading your statements to remind you of that.
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Is it really so hard to accept that there is a difference between a SWF deathsquad or MDR Spirit main, and a normal player?
Edit: And seriously, every casual game has hidden SBMM. That has been an industry standard for years.
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Where did I say anything about deathsquads?
I mentioned maps and their RNG, specifically.
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You may be wondering: With Skill-Based Matchmaking enabled full-time, what will happen to ranks?
Ranks will become Grades and feature all new icons, ranging from Ash to Iridescent. You can increase your grade by earning pips just like before, though there’s now a limit to how many pips you can lose.
Why are people saying ranks will be hidden?
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I would just think of the things that could be tracked, gens, totems, saves, protection hits and the like, can really only be based off track able stuff
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You keep referencing them without naming them. Everyone that gets stuck going against Nurse, Spirit and Blight? They're not normal players. You can't win that much as a normal player, you have to be the kind of person that slams gens and leaves. Same as the killers that are going to be facing them - if you're winning that much, no kidding you need to be stopped from stomping average players.
And maps and rng are irrelevant - once again, the game is casual. The system isn't supposed to be perfect, it's a casual system. It's just supposed to do a better job than the current SBMM system - aka, ranks. One individual trial is always going to be severely affected by RNG, that's how the Devs want it. And when you take into account a group of 20 trials, statistically speaking for each one you lose to RNG, you also win one. The problem is people going against opponents who are outskilled, outperked and outsweated in a casual game where they're just popping in to have a bit of fun.
If the current SBMM system wasn't so broken, MMR wouldn't be needed. But it is broken as hell and, because it's shown to all, people feel driven to be competitive in a game that's basically skillful coin tossing. While going against random players that are way less invested and just want to have fun. Which isn't the same as memeing around.
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The shiny red emblem, a steam achievement, and the knowledge you got there, with MMR you won’t even have that because the fake emblems quite literally don’t mean anything
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You'll still get the shiny red emblem through pips.
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Addons dont matter for the matchmaking. Thats your fourth point.
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They do if worse players can use them to gain MMR.
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MMR won’t be highly affected by one single match. And it’s also dependent on the opponents MMRs.
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My main issue with the new MMR is just how much is hidden. For all we know, they could literally make zero changes and say everything's suddenly good. And while I don't think they would be that scummy, I also don't find myself trusting Behaviour, at all. Given how many obvious bugs get past them and given how long they often take to fix, the system could be entirely broken and we wouldn't know. I'm looking at you Hillbilly.
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Ok, to make it completely clear: Addons dont matter in the MMR-calculation. That was just your fourth point. I just shortened it bc it was a post about your four points. After the colon is my opinion. I really would prefer i you ask me something about that and not about semantics.
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I´m glad that you made a thread about this.
- as you said yourself, people could abuse the system. Back when the Victory Cube launched, killers quickly figured out, that 2 kills + 1 hook is a guaranteed pip while 9 hooks and 1 kill was just a black pip. Which resulted in a lot of camping. You don´t want a similar situation now. Where people figure out that they just need to do this and this to get easier matches. People being afk or suiciding would be something the system could (and should) track. So it might even backfire for them, when people try that.
- a visible rating has its pros and cons. While it would be nice to see where people are, it would also result in people complaining "yeah i got matched with this rank, its not fair! The system doesn´t work!" Which is exactly how people complained during the tests, when they had visible ranks and despite a message that told everyone that they should ignore ranks during the test.
- having only a few viable killers in high skill areas is more of a balance issue which should be approached once the system goes live and the devs can collect more conclusive data in that regard. If high skill survivors really only see 3 killers non stop, than the other killers would require buffs. Which is a good thing.
- how do you come to this conclusion? We have dedicated servers now. The devs could track pretty much everything that happens during a match. Starting from ping spikes, over how long it took the survivors to complete all gens and how much time passed between every successful hit. IF they track this data stands on a different paper. But they definetly could do it.
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Which will get reduced to literal Ash at the end of the month, there's barely any point to it and it's definitely not enough incentive to have or even keep a high MMR
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While i support the implementation of the new SBMM system, i agree with your concerns. They should not hide the MMR and should give more transparency of this system.
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