What is the point of SBMM if we can't see our MMR rank, and can't ever compare it to other players?
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Data based on the old system. It needs mmr data from mmr matches. They have only had a couple tests that lasted a few days, we need like a month of this system for everything to normalize.
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Haven't they said the wiped the data before their latest testing phase so that just the latest testing phase applies? That wasn't 6 months ago, was it?
I'm not aware but did BHVR tell us they used that data to adjust each players MMR accordingly. Do we know that every one of us did not start with roughly the same MMR yesterday?
Those a genuin questions because I have no idea.
I just know how MMR systems work not what data BHVR collected and what data they're actually using for what.
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Yet another thread asking the exact same thing that has already been asked and answered multiple times before?
Every casual game has hidden sbmm to prevent massively unfair lobbies, something they don't tell you in order to not get this kind of masisve misunderstanding. The point of the system is to get rid of all the people that want it to be shown and force them into their own hell, instead of leaving them to bully everyone else.
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To be fair, Behaviour DID say during the last test that they were basing our initial MMR on match data they have been collecting for months, so there should be some ballpark accuracy at launch. We're not all just starting from zero.
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The SBMM system is only really for killers, survivors really have no input towards it. you could play as survivor and escape from every single match, then every time you got a certain killer (say gunslinger) and you literally die instantly in that match and that would effect your SBMM against all killers. it isn't SBMM per killer on the survivor side of things only for killer side. so for survivors your not going to get harder matches against killers you do great against.
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Yeah, "just trust us" is not something Behaviour should reasonably ask or expect DBD's player base to do, given their long history of being stand-up ball-droppers. Just this week, like 65% of Pinhead games were crashing, RPD had to be disabled again, and Freddy can now be stunned by his own dream pallets. They can't figure out major things, let alone something as (I would assume) intricate as a matchmaking system.
Also, quick aside to one of your other replies: You said that people do of course want to see their skill represented, but this is rather at odds with what Behaviour's intentions with this system are. Yet they keep calling it SKILL-BASED MATCHMAKING, which is of course going to compel players to want to see some quantification of the skill factor that is influencing the matchmaking. They completely botched it just in the terminology. It's like engineers make all the decisions without running things through a comms person that can make all of this palatable to a general audience. Goddamn Office Space up in here.
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Yeah that's true but as others already have mentioned (in a reply to Pulsar who replied to me) that data has been collected in a broken match making system. So it probably wasn't even smart to collect AND use that data given how much it can distort the outcome.
What we have now is a loose MMR based on a broken match making system that wasn't working at all. This MMR now needs a bit of time to re-adjust itself to reflect the skill.
I mean I'm not saying it's gonna be great. I'm also not saying it definitely is going to work. All I'm saying is that it CAN'T properly work right now, no matter how well it has been programmed. It will need time and we should give it this time. I mean... match making was a clusterfuck before MMR so what do we have to lose by waiting a few more weeks?
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I'm bronze 3 using Pinhead and got 3 Iridescent grade survivor, what a great "skill based" they said
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I digress, but I want the people who don't know what gens are, who leave you to hang on your first hook, and who immediately open the gates while everyone has hook states left and there's no NOED, to be forced into their own hell. As someone who runs Kindred, I really, really want a major factor in MMR drops to be "time spent not touching a gen when a Kindred-using survivor gets hooked, and/or not running toward that person, and/or running toward that person when someone else is already doing so." Get those people out of my matches.
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Absolutely true. They already made a huge mistake in the terminology and this is why this huge uproar exists. There's a reason no other game tells their player base that even unranked mode features a full blown MMR system just as ranked does.
I also agree that "just trust us lol" is nothing BHVR can reasonably ask their player base given how much fu ups they had in the past.
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THIS. This is the eternal incorrect perception that they will now have to combat on Twitter. People are going to attach these new grades to the MMR system because it's the only number that is visible to them.
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It really is not THAT incorrect at the moment. It still uses the old pip system. And yellow rank killers had no business getting lobbies with red rank swf. I mean, sure, some red ranks are garbage and some yellow rank killers just haven't played for a reset cycle or two. But you know, the ranking system does generally segment people. And with mmr, it SHOULD be less common to see these massive discrepancies.
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MMR is absolutely relevant especially when it works, because then you can have faith and trust in the system working, 2 things many people rightly have almost none of in BHVR because of many past bugs, and design decisions that have plagued the game.
If your scores are all matched up correctly and you still had an awful match then there's something to be learned there, vice versa if the scores are all over the place but the game was evenly matched then there's something to be learned there as well.
Not showing MMR score only tells me BHVR has no confidence in their own system to work properly not too mention it gives people zero reason to try and get better at the game. Rank 1 was at least somewhat of a goal to reach before that even casual as ######### players can go for. Now there's nothing but a minute amount bloodpoints every month.
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If the match is balanced with say a person with a score of 100 who's paired up with a team consisting of 50, 45, and 60 and then the killer is 140 but the march is balanced the ln the system is working the match just got lucky. If its happening consistently then there's an unknown factor at play that the devs are letting us be privy too. But we can't even speculate that far because we absolutely zero idea of how the system works so if we have a massive slew of bad games all we can do is look like some whiner where as if we knew numbers we'd be able to at least give them some data feedback.
With the current system we just have to trust BHVR, a company that consistently breaks their own game every patch, to properly design an mmr rating for a game with massive variables and rng elements.
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Because bhvr has always been so responsive to feedback in the past, like trapper needing base kit trapper bags, or key changes, or optimization issues, or map balancing, or improved custom games, or the massive lack of meta shifts in the games perk loadouts, or only having one and only one game mode for over 5 years, or peoples dissatisfaction with linked sets.
People don't need any more reasons to distrust bhvr we already have zero trust in them which is why we should know at least generally how mmr works, im not asking for every single little detail, I just want to know my own score and what the game at least considers a win and what general variables it considers when appointing that win
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Then why collect data at all?
If the system is so flawed that the data is #########, why even collect it?
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Because it's better than forcing EVERYONE to start at 0. Where it's completely random for everyone for a long time.
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So the old system did work, at least somewhat.
Pick a side. Either the old system produced unreliable data or it produced usable data.
The test wasn't as bad as it is currently.
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No, the old system produced unreliable data compared to the current MMR system.
Which is why it needs adjusting. Which is why having any data is better than having no data at all.
Because anything is better than randomly assigning people to matches with random players, some with far higher skill sets than the average player.
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I can't exactly give it better data if I get hour long queue times.
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Then your MMR is absurdly high. Which is to be expected given how often you can pubstomp. This will happen especially to killers you main. Which is what happens in any MMR-based game that hasn't had MMR until recent.
If your queue times are long and stay long, then that is feedback for the devs. MMR is clearly working good enough for the vast majority of players. And by good enough I mean good enough to get games that aren't a curbstomp on either side. It's been the first day with MMR on, let it settle.
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have a good day.
you misunderstand me.
I'm saying the mmr would just mask actual issues someone should focus on. like playing better at loops or whatever else. they'll just look at the number and say that was the issue.
because the number will just be an escapegoat.
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you can't tell during/after a match f it was a good match?
if you can't, not seeing a number isn't the issue here.
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No, i can't. My current experience so far has been.
I play 1 game, i get 4 megheads that i have to actually try HARDER to NOT 4k them in 3 minutes than just playing normally.
Next game i get 4 SWF sweat squad with 4 DH/4 BT/4 DS/4 UB running purple medkits with syringes and toolboxes with BNP. So naturally since i'm not playing my best killer/loadout, i don't do sop well.
Rinse and repeat.
I win 50% of my games but they aren't exactly "good" matches.
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I'd like to get nice teammates, but I get a lot of newbies even if I have 3.3k+ hours... sometimes with good killers, sometimes with awful killers.
And I can't get killer lobbies if I don't get +10 minutes on ready.
I'm so tilted right now, I don't gonna lie. I was 2 months away and came back for pinhead but can't play with him bc I don't find any lobbies with him and with surv I'm suffering... this is so inconsistent that I want to stop playing again...
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you seem to clearly be able to tell when you stomp the other team or when you get stomped. so yes, you can.
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but that is not what i would call "good matches" on either side. For all i know, all matchmaking does is just see if you won your last game, if you did, it matches you with people who are good, if you didn't it matches you against people who are bad. I have no way of seeing that if i can't actually see the MMR.
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Can't help but notice you still haven't even been able to invent a plausible reason why hiding the number is a good thing. I can't fault you for that I can't think if one either.
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Grades aren't used for match making so they're irrelevant.
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I already gave you those. good day.
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you can tell what is a bad match. therefore, you can tell when it's a good match. which is the ones that aren't badly matched
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I can invent one plausible reason why they are not showing the number. It could be that it's not A number, but 4 numbers. This is obviously guesswork, but here's the thinking:
People have looked at the end page of the results, where opponent's grades are, etc.. But I think the BP score and whether you "win" or "lose" is irrelevant, since this is skill-based, not result-based. Instead, I'm looking at the Emblem page, where four categories are rated seperately.
Take a survivor who gets Gold in all emblems, bar an Ash in Benevolence. Through SBMM, it searches for a team mate who is as close to each result. So between a survivor who has 2 Golds and 2 Silver (in Objectives and Lightbringer and Evader), and a survivor who has 2 Golds and 2 Silvers (in Benevolence and Evader), the latter survivor would be paired with the original survivor, because that score matches closer to each individual emblemic score (Silver in Benevolence being closer to Ash than Gold, and other Emblems maybe only 1 rating out).
Over time, each player's separate emblemic categories average out, and more and more people get paired with similar performers in each category.
Obviously, I have no solid proof, and it's just a thought, but in my games there are a lot of selfless individuals who seem to respect each side, and also I haven't come across one person who has hung at the gates any longer than normal. People also seem to be doing everything: I'm not having one guy focusing on just gens or encouraging killers into long chases (or so they think!).
I'm not sure how it works exactly in relation between killer and survivor, but overall if I was to think of one logical reason why ratings aren't shown, it would be because it would be too complex with too many separate numbers to make cohesive sense.
If it is something like this though, it would cause havoc with people wanting to "derank" to easier levels: They'll probably end up with a complete mess.
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It's not that simple... most of my matches I do everything and usually die on first hook bc the second I get caught my teammates don't save me. or if they save me and I'm tunneled out of the match. so... I win? I lose? what my skill there if I'm playing against and with baboons? and that's truly sad bc if my MMR is putting me down bc I'm trying to cooperate with the team and not playing immersive to just leave this is just idiotic... I don't like to try hard, I like chases and #########, but if this puts me with babies that's just not fair, bc if I get caught the entire match is over. if I'm alive I'm the only one doing things most of the time.
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WIthout any advantage of getting high MMR and laughable reset rewards, I agree. More than that, players deserve to know how their MMR gets affected by kills, hooks, saving & healing teammates, doing generator, escape all these factors very clearly.
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Not quite true. The impression I've gotten is that the new system is using data that they started collecting, it's in the database, but the old rank system was NOT using it to determine rank. Maybe the old rank system was using 5 points of data and maybe the new one is using 10. They started gathering the 10 points of data a while ago, intending to use them now.
At least... ideally. It seems that a lot aren't seeing that work and I'm mid-low level, so I can't give a very solid opinion since my matches are usually pretty mediocre aside from sometimes in the past getting a killer way over my head who decimates me in like 2 minutes.
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I'm sitting in queues during peak hours for 20 minutes as Pinhead, then getting short games where I 4K.
Same with Blight, just longer queues.
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The rewards are dumb. A combined killer + survivor rank 1 monthly BP reward should be at least enough to full-perk a single killer who is level 40 (~5.7 million BP or so).
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Can we see player mmr after a match so we can see if the new system is working? -> "you don't need to see the numbers to know if it's working. You can tell by how the matches feel."
My matches don't feel fun. -> "you just want to bully bad players for easy 4ks/escapes, you sweaty sweatlord."
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it is that simple. you are playing the match. you can tell the skill of the people playing against you.
and having a number won't change that.
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Should the skill of people you play against fluctuate so sharply?
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There's no point to the SKBMM.
All it does is make matches harder for both sides for absolutely zero benefit. There's no reward to being good at this game other than frustration and misery.
DBD is supposed to be a casual game, SKBMM needs to go.
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The point is to trust the developers when they give you statistics and tell you information. They know best so they know exactly what you should and shouldn't see, and you're just wrong for thinking you should see something like your MMR to know it's actually functional. They can't even show if people are SWF or not so you can decide if you want to deal with that or not in this new system, or if I should when I play solo.
Oddly enough this is one of few games I've played where there is no casual mode, but just a straight competitive mode with MMR. Casual survivor party game that isn't competitive by the way!
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No, I retract what I said previously. My first 4-5 matches with SBMM were ok, but it has quickly gone to #########. Like, I have never been so fed up playing this game. Almost every Killer after the first few matches has camped and tunneled. Tunneling Spirit, Blight, Pinhead (because he's new so the campers have to try him) over and over and over. Every Killer has a profile BOASTING about having crappy manners and treating people poorly. Oh, and a higher amount of team mates than usual who work with the Killer against team mates.
I'm like.. near done. I don't know why I play this game, why I give any money to this company when they allow this stuff.
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Isn't the benefit that you play with people who are as good as you, so you don't getstuck with a bunch of terrible teammates?
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I'm not going to disagree with the possibility of multiple values giving a general score.....but why hide those 4 values?
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There are a couple of possible reasons why:
1. The scoring is too complex to show. As in, it tales an average, but that average over time could end up inbetween emblems, so the average may become somewhere between Silver and Bronze, for example. There might be a numerical value, but how the calculations are made might not make much sense to a casual observer.
2. People had manipulated the past ranking system, so by hiding a complex system makes it harder. If people are too focused on depipping, but don't understand the emblem idea, those who try to "derank" only make it worse for themselves.
Again, I honestly have no real idea how it works. But if I was to implement a SBMM then that's how I would look at it, at least from a survivor point of view. I'm guessing for killers it's more complex, since their emblemic measures do not work in symmetry with survivor measurements.
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"Trust the developers."
"They know best."
You must be new here.
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1 no, just no. This isnt some unknowable arcane magic.
2. Deppiping is easy that's why there are killers and survivors who just stand around aimlessly. Showing the number isn't going ti help them figure out that not playing will result in a lower score than playing
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but if they said that we're playing against and with ppl that have some equal player skill as me... I really should play with ppl that plays... better?
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I'm getting a lot of crappy ppl too. but I think that they're really tired too, you now? playing as killer is really frustrating. If you're good with the killer, is a TERRIBLE experience. I'm a good nurse (not very good, I'm just good) and when I play against good survs this salts me a lot, lol
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