I intentionally “lost” over 40 games with Pinhead, yet my MMR seems unchanged
So due to the fact that his lunge is bugged I decided to go into matches with the aim of getting my 4 BBQ stacks, trying to get good with his power and investigate on how best to use him.
My build was Lethal Pursuer, BBQ, Corrupt and then a non meta perk I kept swapping, like Blood Favour or I’m All Ears.
My aim was to find a Survivor, chase them until I down them no matter how long, go after someone else until I had my 4 BBQ stacks, then let them leave.
I preface by saying i’d been red rank on killer every month prior for like a year and I didn’t play Pinhead before doing this due to work, I just levelled him up with saved BP and started on Friday.
Overall I played over 40 games. I NEVER hooked anyone twice, only got my 4 BBQ stacks. 3 games some survivors stayed and died to EGC probably because they felt sorry for me.
By the end of it all I was STILL getting high skill survivors. Why?
I literally lost over 40 games in a row with no more than 4 hooks, I committed to long chases and the gens flew by. What exactly changes or decides our MMR? It seems like it never even changed!
One of my last games I got 2 legacy players and all 4 of them had over 100 hours each logged in the past 2 weeks, I know hours don’t equal skill but I could tell by chasing them they were extremely good. I know really good players when I see them as most of us do.
I’m not bothered by losing and I refuse to feed into the meta of gen slowdown and second chance perks. Why am I being made to play against these players when I just want to have fun games? Why is my MMR not going down after 40 LOSSES? What exactly are the requirements for gaining and losing MMR?
I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt but now I just know it’s not working and can’t be bothered to play killer anymore.
Comments
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If you're not running gen slowdown then I dunno what to tell you. Either play thousands more hours and overall get better or play an S tier killer.
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The requirements are hidden for a very good reason. Telling us the requirements for gaining and losing would just put us in the same situation we were in before with players abusing it.
That you were trying to lower it on purpose and exploit the system shows it is working as designed. That would be one of those very good reasons that the information is hidden. To prevent what you were trying to do.
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You didn’t even read. I lost intentionally to see if it affected the players I was put with and it seemingly didn’t ergo the MMR system isn’t working.
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I would laugh if BHVR actually made a system that can detect throwing
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You didn't read my comment. It is working. One of the reasons for the new system is to prevent what you were trying to do. It seems to have worked.
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How exactly can the system know “oh this killer is chasing a survivor for 4 gens to intentionally lower their mmr” as apposed to “oh this killer is bad at the game and overcommitting to a chase so they need to lose mmr”?
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Doesn't matter how. It is possible to program algorithms to do things like that. Like I said the one of purposes of the new system is to prevent players from doing what you were trying to do and it worked. You were trying to find a way to exploit the new system. That in itself shows why the information needs to be kept from us.
The new system is one of the best things they have done for this game.
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There is no way for it to detect that, you’re basically saying it is somehow evaluating the psychology of the killer player to determine why they are overcommitting to a chase.
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Their is ways to determine that in programming. Comparison algorithms and what not. Organizations use software to do all sorts of things ranging from say weather patterns to computer games.
BHVR have been working on this for some time now. Collecting data on how we play. Looking at the patterns. Things such as if a killer does thing A while value B is in this threshold and object C is triggered set D to false. We don't need to know what A, B, C or D represent. BY trying to manipulate the new system you have provided as good example why we don't need to know what those values would mean or the process used to evaluate them.
It's not linear, it's not black and white. It is constantly evolving/learning based on the data it is getting on how we play. It appears to have caught on to what you were tying to do and it is working as designed.
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I did read it, I simply replied to the bit you specifically said about not wanting to follow the 'gen slowdown meta' so you'll always be losing which you say you don't mind but I don't know many people who are okay with losing pretty much all their games lol.
I'm not even talking about the mmr in your post as there is multiple new mmr posts a day so I'm over replying to them.
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In part, because it isn't about wins and losses. You could be a very skilled player, yet lose every time. Doesn't mean you are any less skilled, and if this works on SBMM I'd make an assumption that if you had 4 chases and won every on, then just stood still, a skill-based mqtchmaking would look at it as if you have a 100% success rate in chases.
I feel trying to play the system is just going to make it worse for anyone. If you want to have more relaxed matches, then you're gonna have to play the trial to the end. Play relaxed, and it will get there quicker than trying to manipulate a system nobody knows how it works, which is what I've been trying to say all along on various discussions: it's impossible to screw a system when it's not know how it works.
People need tp let go of this whole win/loss idea - it's not how it works (at least solely) and there is no definition. Play how you wish to play, and you will face those you wish to face.
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I would laugh if BHVR actually made a functional system of any kind to begin with.
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There is no good argument for not showing player MMR.
People who intentionally throw the game will not stop because they can't see their skill level. They'll just keep doing it until they're sure the game has put them low enough. If they could see their MMR it wouldn't effect their process. But it would let legitimate players who are just playing poorly see that the system is noticing their mistakes and adjusting. As apposed to just putting your faith into Behaviour and blindly assuming your match making is fair.
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SBMM didn't change anything. It's like 1 or 2 potatoes in your team mixed with 1 or 2 good survivors. Killer is most of the time ok but survivors not really.
Doesn't matter if I play good or bad. SBMM is like a mixed soup with everything inside 😅
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We know that there was a bug caused by incorrect capitalisation of the name Hillbilly in the code on one of the old SBMM tests that caused a similar problem. This might have now happened with Pinhead. Is there another killer you could test with?
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The MMR could be deeper, what if it has a factor where it is taking data from the rank 1 playerbase and add it with your individual skill factor?
- Plague has a rank 1 playerbase skill average factor of 500. So if you MMR is 1000 it adds the playerbase factor = 1500.
- Blight has a rank 1 playerbase skill average factor of 1500. So if your MMR is 2000 = 3500.
This could also be not based on playerbase skill but on how often that killer is used as other example, that would encourage to switch killers as the sweaty level will come faster.
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All killers have a different MMR, but imagine how silly it would be to put a 2000 hour killer against 2 hour survivors just because a new killer was released.
So, I propose that there is some baseline MMR that looks at your MMR across all killers. It might look at your highest MMR killer, it might factor in the MMR across all killers, or maybe something else.
Pinhead started at this baseline and cannot drop below it. The way to drop below it would be to lose significant MMR on the other killers.
This could be easily implemented and would stop someone from repeatedly throwing games with one killer to try to go Noob Stomping.
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Mmr of different killers are affected by your mmr on other killers. It's possible you are at the lowest it currently allows you to be.
Or the system beated your attempt to trick it.
Or something else
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I would say the SBMM is either not working or it is just abig fat lie as your post pretty obvious proves. How people come in here and say "it's working as intended' is beyond me LOL
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How would the game do that given the context by OP? They weren't afk in the basement or slapping gens. They were actively engaging in chases and playing the game. The only way to know that they wanted to lose was was if the system could somehow read minds.
If OP is being completely truthful about their games then either their MMR is being lowered extremely slowly or, and I think this is more likely, it doesn't work properly at matching players of appropriate skill together.
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I just hope it keeps you at that mmr, the fact you tried to purposely get lower mmr says alot and should not be allowed or encouraged.
Mmr does seem a little off though especially with pinhead, I'm getting mega sweaty from his first game, while I wouldn't mind when iv played him alot but I liked the idea of less sweaty player when learning but I also dont want mega potatoes or I'm not going to learn as any killer easily beats them
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But what you just described, playing killer very inefficiently, is exactly how newer and lower-skilled killers play like. If the system really does prevent de-ranking by detecting this then it would be impossible for anyone below a certain skill threshold to de-rank. They would steadily keep gaining more MMR until they were facing players way above their skill level.
This is assuming that the system really does work like this and not something actually sensible. But honestly, this is Behaviour we're talking about. Your guess is as good as mine.
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Why do you think it is a single value anymore? It very well could be a process of evaluation.
if [((A+(B*C-A))/D) != (D*C+B-E)*F]/(G+B-H) then I=false
else if J=(A+E)/G)+(C-E) then K=false
switch(L+C/J)
case M:
return C+E/D
break;
case C(E-B):
return (G/H+A)*J
break;
The above code example is very crude and simplistic however it should do for my example. If that was your MMR how many would understand it? The variables being everchanging depending on what a player does.
As for a good reason not to show the values the OP showed us a very good example as to why they shouldn't show us the values.
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I tried getting into Nurse for the first time in almost 4 years yesterday. I figured MMR would be a good time to do so, right? Easier matches on killers you´re undoubtedly terrible with. But no. Of the profiles I could check, none had less than 2,5k hrs and many were around my hour count (almost 5k), some much higher. Obviously I got juiced pretty bad every match but when I had a full legacy lobby after like 10 devastating losses in a row I lost faith in the mmr really adjusting.
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Or hours could be one of the factors MMR is looking at. It may not be looking at hours. We could speculate forever on what ifs.
What it seems to come down to is that the OP was trying to exploit the new system and it caught on to it. The OP also posted a very good reason why the information should remain hidden. To prevent what the OP was attempting to do from happening. In other words it worked as it was supposed to.
Interestingly the OP comes to the forums and says they were intentionally throwing matches to lower their MMR and since it wasn't lowering MMR is not be working. Somehow the OP missed that this is one of the reasons that MMR was implemented.
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Here is a rebuttal to both of your points:
- They have repeated failed to make simple, and frequently requested buffs to weak killers.
- They have still not done something to fix the terrible perk imbalance affecting both sides, leaving a very small pool of perks to be used by players who want to win games.
- They have managed to take the mechanic of breakable walls, meant to fix the infinites to various maps and add map interactivity, into a binary choice of either ignoring them for the entire game or breaking them immediately.
- They have failed to stop the creation of dozens of game breaking bugs for each update they have released, including multiple killers being rendered unplayable in their respective updates.
- They created ludicrous prices prices for cosmetics and then forcibly stopped certain sets from being customisable despite them not having any unique qualities to warrant such.
- They removed killer splinters, removing the ability for new players to try out killers they haven't bought yet.
- They still haven't fixed Blight sliding off certain objects since his release.
- They still haven't fixed Nurses blink spasms, a bug introduced during her release in 2016.
- They thought that releasing the Midwitch map was a good idea.
- They thought releasing the original Mettle of Man was a good idea.
- They were unable to launch the RPD map due to game breaking bugs and still thought it was a good idea to release it completely unchanged.
- They reworked survivor animations for no reason and manged to make them worse.
- They reworked the HUD for no reason and managed to make it worse.
- They removed the I CAME voice line from Pinhead.
All this and so much more, and yet this is the company you trust to develop a fair SBMM system?
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
Allow me to add an extra point, it's taken them 2 years and it's still ongoing to fix Console Optimisation.
Post edited by EQWashu on6 -
None of those have to do with the SBMM system. Not even sure they same teams were assigned to any of those areas. Now that SBMM has been released perhaps some of them will move onto working on some of those.
Getting back on topic the thing the OP was complaining about is not an issue. By the OP's own admission they were trying to get around the system by losing matches and the system appears to have recognized this and acted accordingly.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
You need to whiff. Have long chase but let survivors escape. Use your power but fail it.
Go in the mind of a new player. Camp hooks. Hit on hook. Dont afk once you got your BBq stacks.
You'll derank your MMR.
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This team made the SBMM system! It's the same people dude. You do not want to die on this hill.
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All the game development ones are the same team... The only one that didn't is the cosmetics which is literally a different team.
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I have an idea & it's that it does it based off perk tiers & the one's you use.
Using tier 1 off meta perks alot? Here's some tier 1 off meta players. Using tier 3 meta perks, doesn't matter if you're trash here's tier 3 meta perk survivors.
I haven't been able to test this tho so I could be very wrong.
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Well,crossplay is working really well.
Which is kind of a shame because i was already excited to get matched with Call of Duty or Mario Kart players 😔
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You don't know much about how programming works on large programs I take it. I have worked on large programs. It not everyone working on everything though I have worked on projects that had been like that and it is far from efficient.
I can think of one big example of were things had gone so wrong that some very important data was not making it were it should and it was because too many people were working on the project and some error checking had been coded wrong. Took days to fine one line of code. It sucked.
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So you think that every single problem that has ever existed in DbD today was made by an entirely different dev team to the one who made SBMM, with not one single person crossing over? Why?
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Maybe Pinhead is just bugged on the MMR.
I personally bought Trickster, just to see how the system reacts to me playing a completely new killer.
I played 3 matches, and got brown and yelllow ranks survivors. Matches were extremely easy.
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are u for real man ?
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That's not what I said. Your reading what you want from my comment(s).
Just because one thing is being worked on doesn't mean that other things anent being worked on. It's not everyone however their appears to be a lot of black and white thinking on these forums. Players thinking that SBMM is one number, players who think that a software company only works on one part of a program at once, etc.
In any case this has all gotten off topic. The OP was trying to manipulate the system by losing matches to lower MMR rating and when it didn't work claimed that MMR was not working. It caught the attempt to exploit it. That would mean it is working.
I find it interesting that the OP would come to the forums and admit that he was losing matches on purpose to lower his rating with all the posts, comments and discussions saying that is one of the things SBMM was made to prevent.
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We're talking about the same Dev team who seemingly breaks their game every time a new Killer is released and has still refused/taken so long to fix the long list of bugs that are still prevalent in this game.
I honestly doubt that BHVR was able to come up with such a complex system on the first try with absolutely no issues. Need I remind you the last time they attempted MMR over 1-2 years ago? And before you compare the 2, the initial MMR system they created and the one they have now are completely different systems.
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We don't know what counts as a loss for mmr purposes.
For example, imagine if the system was completely chase-centered. You went only for 4 hooks, but if you won your chases handily, such a system would register you as high-skilled anyway and matchmake you accordingly.
If I had to make an educated guess as to what one should do to lower their rating:
- don't afk (it was widely abused in the old system, there might be checks to avoid it now).
- commit to every chase, respect all pallets and bloodlust (I feel triggering events are tracked and factored in), don't use your power effectively. These ensure long chases with a lot of bloodlust and fast gen time. Pretending to lose a survivor in chase here and there (look away to interrupt the music) might also help.
- stay near the hook and hardcore tunnel, don't respect bt or ds, try to get hit by those.
- make sure at least 3 survivors escape (manipulate chases accordingly).
These should cover the basis of unoptimal play. They all may or may not be taken into account by the actual algorythm, but it's my best guess.
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I don’t think hours are weighted heavily if they’re even considered. I’m at about 1500 hours on my PC account and since MMR I’ve been matched with people who have 100 hours, people with around the same as me, and people with 5000+.
Hours might be a multiplier or adjustment of some kind but if so it’s very small.
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If behavior did their job right then the SBMM is measuring SKILL demonstrated in the match, not how many kills or escapes a player is getting. You may be intentionally letting everyone escape the trial but when getting your 4 BBQ stacks how many chases are you losing? how many times are you whiffing your attacks? how effective are you at using his power? how long are you spending between chases? how much time are survivors spending in your terror radius without you initiating a chase? how quickly is the match ending? when you "give up" after getting your stacks are you just going idle or are you demonstrating an inability to get additional hooks?
we don't know what they are actually measuring, but if they did it right then all of these things and probably more would factor in. This game has never really been about 4k or 4e as a measure of skill
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Fact is he played properly and tried is best while learning the new abilities. he lost all his games and still he didn't derank... it's weird.
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I guess everyone has a different experience.
Almost everyone on my team are potatoes. Like me. 😄 Except the Killer is actually decent, lol.
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Maybe the system understand that even being bad as hell certain hooks would be possible.
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Or it finds a sudden and consistent decrease in skill too obvious.
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There was a Feedback Survey recently, which asked players what they considered as a "Win." There were a number of different situations, including "getting 4 stacks of BBQ," or "getting 8 hooks but no kills" and so forth.
It's entirely possible that the feedback from that survey was used to adjust MMR, where a game with 0 kills STILL boosts your ranking if you got all 4 BBQ stacks, since that could be considered a 'win' from people just out for BP farming.
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What computers can do=/=what bhvr can do LOL
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You "lost" according to your own personal win conditions.
You hooked everyone once, that's 1/3 of the killer objective and spread out among all survivors.
That could be enough to maintain your current MMR, similar to a safety pip.
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I mean lets not kid ourself. The game is pretty basic, under the line there are just a handful things showing skill:
Chase duration, pallets used, gen repair/regression, downs, pickups, kills and escapes. There aint much more having huge factors. Pretty easy to manipulate if you really want to. Just play like a potato in named categories and your score will dip. Someone who wants to "smurf" into easier lobbys will find a way. Unless BHVR lied to us and there aint no SBMM but MM is random now.
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