What Does Everyone Think About the Deathslinger Changes?
tl;dr: Counterplay against Slinger in chase is good and is welcome, but making him less stealthy without giving him tools to replace his pseudo-stealth makes him an objectively worse version of Huntress.
I have about 400 hours on Slinger, so over half of my playtime in DbD has been from playing Slinger. Considering people play this game into 5k+ hours there is undoubtedly someone who has played him more than me, but I want to at least get the conversation started.
Removing quickscoping and adding longer delay after ending ADS before you can swing, I think will barely affect him. Quickscoping was always more of a gamble than taking an extra 0.25 seconds to line up a shot. This is just how I played, but quickscoping was usually a bad idea unless the survivor was brainlessly running in a straight line. It's easier to miss if you don't take your time, and a miss as Slinger can make you lose the chase or even the entire game. So holding ADS and lining up a shot, while marginally less time efficient, was more consistent and reliable than quickscoping. Slingers that relied on winning their gambles and landing quickscopes will do worse this patch, but Slingers that relied on landing consistent shots will get a net benefit from the increased ADS movement speed.
I didn't often do the tap ADS """mindgame""" to trick survivors into wasting time juking and getting hit anyway. It's more time efficient to just shoot them than to slowly walk up to them while tapping m2 occasionally. It's a funny gimmick strat that simply doesn't work against survivors that know how to play against Slinger (make distance, pre-drop pallets, break LoS). If you're trying to juke Slinger, you're just hedging your bets that he's not very good and will miss his shot. Betting that your opponent is bad is not a viable strategy to win consistently. Holding ADS and lining up a guaranteed shot is much more consistent and time efficient than walking up to them to land an M1 while doing the ADS "mindgame". That being said, yes, Slinger is very oppressive and there's not a lot a survivor can do in a scenario where it's juke or get shot... because either way it's get shot against a good Slinger.
Having a 32m TR is really the change what did him in imo. Slinger's fastest downs come from the m1 -> m2 combo, and having a large TR makes it hard for him to get the first hit since he's still a 4.4 killer. Without stealth, he's forced into the pattern of "shoot -> hit -> reload -> shoot -> hit -> down -> reload", which is the primary reason why a lot of people say Slinger has terrible time efficiency (they're playing him poorly). Like, "stealth hit -> shoot -> hit -> down -> reload" is what gives him Nurse-level chases (especially with StBfL, which makes him insanely oppressive and can down survivors before their post-hit speed burst ends). Playing him with a 24m TR by not having M&A equipped was already WAY more difficult than playing him with a 16m TR. If a 99'd Myers downing a healthy survivor from psuedo-stealth is mostly fine, why is problematic for Slinger to do the same thing, but slower and with more skill required?
If it's okay for Huntress to snipe people off gens with BBQ, why is bad for Slinger to do it with M&A? Landing a shot outside of your TR as an M&A Slinger meant you had to know EXACTLY how far your harpoon goes. 16m TR, and 18m range shot. You have to be able to come from an unexpected angle so they can't see you, shoot from a very precise range (not too close, not too far), and then also reel them in and hit them after you land the shot. All Huntress has to do is chuck a hatchet and pray (an experienced Huntress will have a good idea of the correct angle), but Slinger has to get into position without being spotted before he can make the shot.
Without pseudo-stealth, he's just a Huntress that's worse in every way. No cross maps due to short range, exponentially worse time efficiency due to constant reloading and the reeling mechanic, and more difficult downs. Downing a survivor is impossible for Slinger when shooting over a safe pallet, during a drop down window vault, or simply if they are too far or there are many obstacles for the survivor to break the chain on. A skilled Huntress can get downs in all of these scenarios, while Slinger can only get injures.
Yes, Slinger is powerful to the point of being oppressive. Giving him counterplay in chase is great, but nerfing his stealth makes him even more perk reliant than he already is and just doubles down on "hold W gaming" as the best strategy against him.
Comments
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Awful. Watched some gameplay and I can already tell that small extra time it will take to ADS will be an utter pain in the ass. Not to mention the 32 meter terror radius which is a completely painful and unnecesary change, especially now with that nerf.
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Firstly, well done for being rational about it and not just screaming about how slinger has been murdered because of evil survivors like some slinger mains have been carrying on.
I think the semi-stealth aspect was also pretty frustrating although not as much as ADS spam. Stealth + range being the annoying part. I would've probably given him some lullaby equivalent like huntress or trickster, although this way does mean he can use undetectable/oblivious perks in the way they can't.
So I would probably keep all the current nerfs, maybe add something to make him a better killer in ways other than the chase, not that I have much of an idea how to do that, and probably increase his range. I prefer it when each killer has something the others can't do. So apart from being able to fire one off quicker than huntress which isn't much on its own, he should probably have some secondary ability.
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I liked the niche of "stealthy short ranged killer," it's what made him stand out from Huntress and Trickster as a unique killer. That being said, Huntress can damage from outside her lullaby range by sniping you with Lethal Pursuer, BBQ, Bitter Murmur, and any of those gen detection perks (like Surveillance and Discordance).
I just think it's weird that cross-map damage and downs as Huntress is considered fine, but sneaking up and getting a shot as Slinger is not. Both have little warning (hard to tell if Huntress is chucking a cross-map hatchet or a close hatchet if you're on a gen), and both can injure and down you. Both have counter play, and neither is a guaranteed hit or down.
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As for me they could have just deleted him nobody likes that old hag hahaha
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The something he could do that no one else could do was stealth with range. And that required a perk, anyways. But yeah, he is not really worth playing anymore unless you like him.
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This is reminding me a lot of billy. Just gutted slinger for no good reason tbh.
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Personally I'm fine with his nerf to ADS but I'm against his TR nerf.
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Just bad. The only good change is the increased cd when cancelling ads.
Removing the quick scope makes 0 sense when Deathslinger already has a chain breaking mechanic. Just get rid of survivors losing control when Deathslinger walks backwards and keep the cd when cancelling ads and revert everything else and he'll be fine.
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I accidentally deleted my comment, I think. oops.
I liked his niche as a stealthy ranged killer, gave you a reason to pick him instead of Huntress or Trickster.
But I thinks it's weird that a cross-map injure or down as Huntress is fine, and a close-up injure or down from stealth as Slinger is bad. Both have counter play (paying attention), and both have similar levels of pay off. Both are reliant on perks to do consistently, and both hits happen from outside the killer's terror radius. Food for thought.
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I still say without a lullaby undetectable/oblivious perks will be good on him. People underestimate them and mostly stuck to M&A because it was all he really needed, something like plaything could be nasty on him though (assuming every totem doesn't start getting blessed, idk how popular those boon perks will end up)
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Slinger was pretty oppressive. It literally didn't matter how good the survivor was, as long as you were a good Slinger. Like with Nurse and Spirit, the most many survivors can do is just pray that the killer is bad.
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How dare a killer be able to kill survivors by getting good at the game.
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I was thinking Trail of Torment instead of M&A. Hysteria with Sloppy is tempting as well, since Sloppy is a good Slinger perk.
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Oh, no. That's not the problem. In a balanced game, a skilled player should be able to consistently beat a less skilled player. The problem is that a skilled survivor cannot win a chase against a less skilled Slinger, unless the Slinger is just mind-bogglingly unskilled with him.
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eh I think he'll still be fun to play im interested to use new iridescent coin since it has a lower activation range
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That is true. I started properly with huntress recently and got my first long range hit the other day, even from a distance I could see it barely grazed the survivor so I think the exact precision required from slinger would get on my nerves. One of the few times I have played him I did manage to shoot someone through some ridiculously small gap which was pretty satisfying.
How far would you extend his range?
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He's pretty much the same in regards of no counterplay in chase but the extra ADS time made him more unfun to play as and screwed up the muscle memory of any Slinger main out there. ADS sensitivity is still ass so the MS buff is worthless, I'm still shooting as fast as possible instead of holding the gun like devs seem to want you to. You still can't dodge a 0.4 seconds projectile, at most this change will let you know you're getting shot. The TR change is also stupid, survivors can now hold W for 14m before you can even do anything, Monitor went from a good but optional perk on him to mandatory.
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I agree with most of what you presented in your initial post. I respectfully disagree with your statement in this last comment. I don't think Slinger was oppressive in a meaningful that made him A or S tier or incapable of being counter-able in most instances. If anything, I don't think most people knew how to counter him because nobody ever played him.
The increased Terror Radius is what's killing him the most out of all the changes. In that, we both agree, he was reliant and interesting as a stealth ranged Killer and offered an unique playability which differed greatly from Huntress and Trickster. Without it, he is essentially a worst Huntress in the whole extension of it. Limited projectiles, limited range, basically no pressure... and, now, he is completely dependant on perks and add-ons to remotely hold his ground in matches.
Did he need changes? Definitely. The ADS setting should be decreased than the current state of the PTB and I have no issue with the cooldown for cancelling it as long as he retains the the decreased penalty on his movement. I think the latter was a healthy change which removed the constant guessing on whether he was going to shoot or not.
In his current state in the PTB, it is painful to play as him and it is painful to watch others play as him. Only Deathslingers that have been able to get Kills on my end are the ones running Iridescent Coin with recharge add-ons. But if you need to play with add-ons to get Kills then the Killer has issues as a mechanic.
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Just 2m longer, for comfort and QoL. Missing a shot at 18.1m feels really bad, but at 20m survivors could theoretically juke your shot on reaction VERY consistently so it doesn't make him much stronger. They can start juking on reaction if they are around 15m-16m anyway.
400ms ADS time + 500ms firing delay + 375ms travel time (40m/s travel time at 15m) = 1275ms time to react.
1275ms - 250ms (average human reaction time) = 1025ms window of potential reaction.
Survivors move at 4m/s, so a survivor 15m away can, on reaction, move 4 meters after seeing a Slinger raise his gun to ADS. Enough to dodge if Slinger is quickscoping and not hardscoping.
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DS from PTB is horrible. Its either Deathslinger players having fun by having quickscope or survivors, and BHVR chose survivors. He might be still viable as D tier killer, but he is not fun to play. As if he was Huntress but twins. Personally I'll stick to Nemesis, he might not be the strongest, but he is fun at least.
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What I think is that I'm going to play pretty much only Slinger while he's still fun.
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These changes feel as if picked by throwing darts. By all means, they seem to be there solely to satisfy those very loud survivors that refuse to learn how to counter killers.
It's sad.
Oh, I guess he'll be 'fun' now for the players who get off to looping and juking and holding W to 'win' a chase, but to everyone who remotely knows how to play he'll be just frustrating.
Not to mention the changes to his iri addons really speak to the devs not knowing what they are doing
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I'm too dumb to do the tiny quote that you did.
"I respectfully disagree with your statement in this last comment. I don't think Slinger was oppressive in a meaningful that made him A or S tier or incapable of being counter-able in most instances."
I agree, not oppressive in a "Slinger is an easy win and S tier" sense, but oppressive in a "as a Survivor, I can make very few meaningful decisions to avoid getting shot" sense. In chase, it did not matter how good the survivor was. If Slinger could see you, you were going to get shot. His counterplay was mostly the standard pre-drop pallets and hold W kind of thing, but many times Slinger could nullify even your ability to pre drop pallets by shooting you before you got to them.
He's very reliant on snowballing to win, as he can't do the chokehold style gameplay of a faster killer. If you prevent the snowball by breaking LoS or dropping pallets early, you could help your team win by a lot. Even then, his snowballing is pretty weak due to his poor mobility and poor time efficiency.
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He's bottom 3 in the game with those changes and its not even debatable. His one of two main strengths was being pseudo stealth. he's lost that. he lost his quick scoping, his other main strength.
Losing to deathslinger is going to be an embarrassment as a survivor, same as losing to legion right now is.
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He went from High B/Low A to Low B with this patch. Not really the end of the world.
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Slinger was literally my least favourite killer to face even after spirit, hag and twins, but I don't think I'd be opposed to unlimited range if these nerfs go through. I mean it'd be harder to hit across the map than huntress anyway.
Oh stop with the self-pity, I whined about slinger more than any other because he was miserable to face. I'd rather go against spirit or hag and both those killers ######### me up regularly but I eat slingers for breakfast because I genrush outside of chase to get into a better game ASAP and in chase I hold W with objects kept inbetween us. Both counters, both dull as hell. I don't care about escaping I don't want to be able to counter every killer by running around in circles I just want killers I get some input in chase with.
Honestly he currently feels like an extreme version of clown and clown is easy to beat and boring af to verse.
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So, are you happy with the changes now? Changes that make him entirely frustrating to play AS?
Good balancing should have made him fun to face for both sides, which these changes don't. And there have been suggestions on how to do it better. But this... They might as well remove him from the game entirely now.
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I think it would be fun if Slinger had a laser sight, so you see a red dot pop up on your survivor if he's aiming at you. There's supposed to be an audio que that plays when he's aiming at you, but it's either too quiet or just doesn't have time to play.
So even if you aren't looking at Slinger, you get information that tells you "it's time to try and juke him" or "he's aiming at the spot in front of me"
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It would be fun if Slinger had a laser sight, so a little red dot pops up wherever he's aiming. Gives the survivor a que to know "ok it's time to juke since there's a red dot on me" or "he's aiming through the window, I should turn around." Like Huntress' grunt and axe gleam sound.
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Honestly if the only option on the table was to make him dogshit to play as I'd take it, you can avoid playing as killers, you don't get the choice to avoid playing against them.
But ideally yeah he should be given something else. Slightly faster aiming speed and a quicker aim than other ranged killers isn't enough and they should make him fun to play as and against. Ideally some kind of map control rather than any 1v1 stuff.
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That would be cool, I don't think they had laser sights in cowboy times though? Not that my US history is amazing 😂 maybe something more for some cyborg sniper killer which I'd probably love regardless of how obnoxious their gameplay was.
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Not lore accurate, but fun trumps all haha. Maybe something like one of those covered lanterns that shoots out a beam instead of radiating light everywhere.
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How about we lean into red dead and slinger can challenge survivors to a game of five finger fillet? :P
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Cyborg sniper reminds me of Predator's cloaking and plasma casting lol. Alien vs Predator chapter coming when? Getting Alien and Predator as killers, and Sigourney Weaver and Arnold Schwarzenegger as survivors would be hype.
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*Clown liked that*
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Right, because wiggling and dodging won’t ever cause Slinger to miss. It’s obvious you don’t play killer.
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Terrible.
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I have around 400 hours on Slinger. You just ADS and wait until the survivor spins back into your sights, or you lead a little bit so they walk into it. The only way you miss at short range as Slinger is getting over eager and firing early instead of waiting around 250ms to 500ms to guarantee your hit.
The truth is, survivors don't dodge Slinger at close range, Slinger just misses. Missing because of a juking survivor at less than 10m means the Slinger just isn't very good, not that the survivor is so good that they can dodge or juke bullets.
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I'm glad about his terror radius change, it felt unfair before. Concerning his other changes, idk.
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Really? How did it feel unfair? Genuine question.
I do agree that getting hit from stealth is extremely annoying. My least favorite thing in DbD is getting downed by a 99'd Myers with M&A or some other stealth perk, but Slinger can at most get one hit from stealth (unless he has StBfL, in which case he can potentially get two)
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Slinger only ever misses, you don't dodge him. How do I react to and dodge a shot when by the time he's fully raised his gun he's already fired? With any ranged killers or killers who launch themselves at you - huntress, trickster, plague, PH and nemesis as well as demo and twins you get a cue when they're going to hit you with their M2/M2 + M1.
With slinger if you're not behind cover you can only pre-emptively weave back and forth while losing ground and as soon as you stop he can insta-shoot. And any slinger can shoot straight in front of them. Not disregarding the impressive aim some slingers have, but any of them can shoot someone running in a straight line in front of them. I suck at slinger and I can do that.
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Because if they had Monitor and abuse you could get shot with no warning. Other ranged killers like huntress and trickster have huge lullabys
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Maybe don’t run in a straight line? You predict when slinger is going to shoot and dodge. If you are about to round a corner, he will be forced to take a shot. It requires input by both players.
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Huntress can cross-map people from WAY outside her lullaby radius, and your warning is really just the fully charged global axe gleam sound effect and the axe twirling sound effect. The global axe gleam could mean she's cross-mapping you, cross-mapping someone else, or she's chasing someone, so it's not a very reliable way to know that you need to move.
And I'm not sure if I've ever even heard of someone dodging a cross-map hatchet on reaction to the twirling sound, but I'm open to the possibility.
All she has to do is throw her hatchet at a gen or your BBQ aura and hope there's no obstacles. Once I started practicing cross-maps as Huntress, you can do them relatively consistently (perks help).
Slinger on the other hand has to complete a laundry list to shoot you off a gen from outside his TR with M&A.
1.) Requires him to equip M&A, burning a perk slot
2.) Get to your location without being spotted from a distance or getting called out on coms
3.) Get within exactly 17m-18m of you. (at 16m, you are in his TR. At 18.1m, he can no longer shoot you)
4.) Actually land the shot before you see him (if you are moving and not on a gen, this can be tricky since you could walk out of range before the harpoon reaches you)
He needs to also be in a perfectly straight line to gen, with no obstacles in the way. Meaning that you can see him before he takes the shot, regardless of being in his TR.
I get that it's annoying to get jump scared, but it's not like he can do it for free or that it takes no effort. Lots of killers can make you unexpectedly take damage or damage you without being close, without nowhere near as much precision or skill required as stealthing as Slinger (Myers, silent bell Wraith, a sneaky Trapper trap, Ghost Face, Hag's Rusted Shackles, and assorted killers with assorted stealth perks). With decreased stealth abilities, he goes from being a 2 trick pony into being a 1 trick pony.
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Like I said, you can't run in a straight line. You have to weave back and forth and rapidly lose ground despite him being 110. You do that and get m1ed, or you stop and get m2ed. You don't outplay him, he misses.
Holding W is otherwise a very good tactic on him as long as there's tall obstacles between you, but that's not very fun to do or go against (or at least several slingers have told me in postgame it wasn't a very fun way of avoiding their power, but what else am I supposed to do really?)
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Push the ads feature more. A tune plays that gradually crescendos as the slinger is lining up the shot. He can fire at the nerf ads speed earlier but if he lets the meter build up and fires the harpoon upon hitting the survivor is exposed. This allows for a much faster to down capabilities but puts the survivor in a position where they need to avoid the oncoming shot but gives them much more time to react. Slinger needs to focus on generating more snowball potential. Leaning into instadown territory is both thematic and terrifying.
This would require someway for slinger to build up the meter without just holding the gun up all the time so I suggest that as long as the killer is facing a survivor within his shoot range the meter will only then build up. Ye haw!
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(I am dumb and accidentally delete my comments a lot)
The ADS warning sound actually already existed since Slinger's launch, just no one knew about it since everyone quickscopes with him. It's a high pitched ringing that only plays when he's ADS'ing, looking at you, and you're in range. It gets louder the closer you are to being in his iron sights.
I really like the idea of Slinger "charging up" his shot. The longer he ADS's, the more range he gets. Like a reverse Huntress: he starts with max projectile speed, but has to charge up his range. Any kind of second mechanic to replace his missing stealth potential
It would be cool if he got an instadown after reeling in from max range, or if he could damage without reeling in with a headshot.
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(I am dumb and accidentally delete my comments a lot)
The ADS warning sound actually already existed since Slinger's launch, just no one knew about it since everyone quickscopes with him. It's a high pitched ringing that only plays when he's ADS'ing, looking at you, and you're in range. It gets louder the closer you are to being in his iron sights.
I really like the idea of Slinger "charging up" his shot. The longer he ADS's, the more range he gets. Like a reverse Huntress: he starts with max projectile speed, but has to charge up his range.
It would be cool if he got an instadown after reeling in from max range, or if he could damage without reeling in with a headshot.
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