Patrick's response to "What is a Win?"
Patrick, the lead game designer answered the question during the Q&A "What is a 'win'" according to Dead by Daylight's gameplay.
He replied in an objectively questionable way, subjectively somewhat mocking way that it doesn't matter how well you did, if you died you died, and if you escaped / killed a bunch, you win.
One of the things he said was,
...That's all MMR is trying to do, it goes, 'we know that you died' it's ignoring how you got there because there's too much nuance to be able to make a real effective system, and we just ignore that.
Listen Patrick, buddy. I get what you're saying, and I understand why it needs to be like that. Buddy, you don't just go out there with however much prep time you had and essentially tell a community full of people questioning your system, "Yeah you could be the best player on the team, but if you died our system recognizes you as trash"
I appreciate the honesty from BHVR for once, but really? Was there really no better way of saying this? Everybody is quoting this one segment just because of how poor of a response this was.
Please, get someone to proofread your responses ahead of time because wow that whole segment was a trainwreck.
Comments
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Remember guys, this system took 2 years to develop and is as good at deciphering skill as the last one.
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Hell I'm genuinely convinced Point based Pipping was better
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I get the impression that he was trying to say good players are the ones that escape as soon as possible... i don't know what to think of that.
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It's way better than the last one.
Remember that killers had literally no matchmaking for ages, and you'd constantly find yourself being put up against full red-rank SWF groups as a purple/green ranked killer.
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If Patrick is LEAD game designer, I have the answer why this game is in such horrible state.
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Is it?
I have a lot of gripes (Wraith nerf, about 2/3 of killer perks being completely useless and half the killers being mediocre, cheaters, SBMM quirks, Haddonfield) - but compared to when I started playing just over a year ago, it's so, so much better.
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You can’t look at one person and go “this is the reason why this game is in such a bad state” when it’s in the best state it’s ever been in.
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Remember when @not_Queen said the MMR system when it was first made worked in that manner and it was terrible? Whyd they go back on that? And yes I mean that respectfully
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Remember? That's many of our experiences currently as killers. The 'new' system is just the old system with a gloss of paint.
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Still, just because it's in 'best state ever', doesn't mean the game is in good state. Just the way he was talking about MMR...
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My cat could have knocked this system out in under an hour.
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Ngl, this whole thing has me pretty pissed. What kind of dumbass system is like we know you got 20 unhooks, fixed 12 gens, and had a 20 minute chase, but you died so you suck lol. What an absolute joke.
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You overestimate the devs, your cat could have made a better system.
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Why would anybody have to 'remember' when this is currently the reality for countless players? Did you not just watch a Developer confess in front of thousands of viewers that the system operates exactly the same as the old ones? Explain how this system is objectively better please, because the reality is its a placebo with hidden rank icons to make casual players feel better and safe from criticism. You still have god-loopers (I'm one of them even though I get my ass kicked sometimes) that go against baby killers that are practicing their craft, you still have Killers playing their mains and getting lobbies of default-outfit babies that don't look behind them while running. Nothing has changed, its just a different name and no more visual indicators of your rank
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He definitely came across pretty badly that’s for sure.
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The only way to truly determine a survivor player's skill is by chase time. The only truly skillful thing is being capable of running a killer. Everything else a 10 hour player can do just as good as a 5k hour player. Hook saves, healing, and doing gens are not indicative of skill. Sure there are things like body blocking but I would assume it would be hard to determine what was an actual good body block or someone trying to farm MMR with it.
On killer it is much easier to indicate skill. Chase time, hits, hooks, kills and to a degree, gen repair delay. Survivor just has so much down time that there really isn't much to go off of if we are being honest. The killer is always doing something to display their skill.
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I think people are missing the fundamental point that this mmr brings.
Yes in the short term it may seem that good players will be punished for not escaping as they may hypothetically die. However in the long term what this will do is bring all the players to a point where they escape in 50% of games and die in 50% of their games, which is the ultimate goal of mmr. And over time due to laws of averages and what the mmr defines a win, this will happen.
It's easy to say on a case by case basis that yes a good player may be punished for not escaping. However that's what multiple games are for, your mmr isn't defined by a single match. It's defined by the collection of every single game you ever play.
Players need to stop being so narrow minded and see the bigger picture of what this style of mmr actually does for the game.
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so basically since the MMR system for survivors is not based off the entire team of survivors its based off the single individual. when can we expect survivor perks to be balanced as 1 vs the killer?
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My favorite part is how much up to this point BHVR loved to tell us "The system doesn't just track kills and escapes, we found that system doesn't work so we changed it." We ask them what mmr is then and they go "Kills and escapes." So now I feel we can't take the devs at face value because they literally lied to us just to tell us the truth later. I know it's BHVR and we should just expect that from them, however we shouldn't put up with that.
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This comment from Peanits aged really well...
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I thought his answer was reasonable, and I didn't find it mocking. He said that the goal of the system is to bring you to a 50% escape rate -- that, even if you're doing lots of great stuff during the match, they would rather you were able to do that stuff and escape at least half the time. To me, that sounds totally fair.
I also don't think that having your MMR lowered is a punishment, or a judgement against you -- it's literally just an attempt to find a match where you have an equal chance to survive or not. And I don't see how that's a bad thing.
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normally this would be funny, but this is just outright sad and pathetic
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So if Killers gain a higher MMR for number of sacrifices and not chases, hooks, etc. Camping and tunneling is the most rewarded strategy.
This completely explains why I've been surrounded by potatoes in Solo queue and have Killers camping 9/10 matches since SBMM dropped.
I have a bloody goldfish that could have come up with a better system than this. I'm so pissed and resentful that I ever spent any money on this wretched game.
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Losing doesn't make you trash. This is just for better matchmaking... No need to take it so personal. If someone hook trades against Leatherface instead of just escaping... Maybe they SHOULD be in lower bracket matches to where they can potentially play the same way and still manage an escape. No?
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I dont think increase SBMM is "rewarded" as you will face better survivors.
I dont think a Killer who play fair and do well that the first dead is at his 8-9th hook and have 3 escape should get higher SBMM; than Killer who tunnel/camp and get 2k with 2-3 hooks.
If the system keeps the tunnel/camp Killer's SBMM low, everyone will just tunnel & camp since it gives them both kills and low mm to satisfy their need. Thats when the game truly death for Solo players.
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What it does for the game is make matches even worse. I used to sit in purple ranks as survivor. It was pretty decent. I could play fairly chill, had okay teammates and generally decent matches. All that has gone out the window. This system is trash, pure and simple.
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Oh as much as I want to bathe in the I told you so energy that this QnA stream has given me I still have to say that for the health of the game this is still incredibly disappointing to see. The mocking tone and super exaggerated example argument he used to basically vilify a legitimate point (even if for an attempt at comedy) really shows how little they actually care about player feedback.
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Victory must have a clear definition with clear criteria. And some of the players may not like this definition, and that's okay.
The developer's current answer is similar to that of a young child. And this is very upsetting (
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I think there are three overlapping issues here:
- They advertised this new system for two years which would have allegedly measured skills, where it literally does ignore skills, as openly admitted to in Patrick's answer.
- They also refused to reveal to us for two years how the system worked and basically told us 'just trust us', as if we where too dumb to understand how such a shallow algorythm worked. Then they ######### up as usual, the system gets datamined and when the cat is out of the bar, then surprise surprise it turns out they weren't deserving of our trust.
- Finally, when they openly talked about it, they do it in a mocking and condescending toner, ignoring any basics of communication.
I think we're back to where we always end up to, i.e. there's a huge disconnect between the devs and the community, which is furthered by the devs' we-know-better attitude.
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Baffling and disappointing.
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While i do not agree with it i can somewhat see the logic behind it.
It tries to put you in the sweet spot of about 50% escape rate no matter what your playstyle is.
It's not looking at how skilled you are just purelly focusing on getting you to that sweet spot.
If you like to loop the killer for 5 gens and then you die. It will lower your mmr so you face less experienced killers so you can loop the killer for 5 gens and escape too.
If you like to hide all match and escape of the effort of your teammates it will increase your mmr untill you face killers that crush teams where a teammember does nothing. Untill it once again reaches the sweet spot of you being able to escape 50% of the time by hiding
It's not measuring skill. It's just looking to get you that 50% escape rate no matter your playstyle.
Lots of flaws in this system and i don't really agree with it but i can see the logic behind it
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No matchmaking is perfect. But getting a 50/50 winrate is more or less ideal. Hard to complain, at least on the survivor end.
No idea what a 50/50 is supposed to be for killer. I guess 2 kills? Idk.
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This is my main problem with it.
If this system was brand new and the 1.5 version implements into the game after the first PTR than I would be pretty fine with the statment. However they worked on this for two years only to come up will "Kill and Escape based matchmaking" (KAEBMM, sounds as awful as it is to some).
They should try to imrpove the system over time now. To aim for the goals they discribed here. Because the problem is the following: Imagin I was a realy, realy good survivor and I play very altruistic. I loop the Killer all game, rush gens like I hat 3x Prove Thyself and open the gates. However Baby-Nea overdid her flashlight clicking and the Killer hooked her, just to facecamp. Now my altruistic side kicks in and I rescue her, I die and she escapes.
No even without malicious intend and while doing something that is clearly deemed good by the game (you get points for that and I even run "We are gonna live foever" now with 4 stacks of course!), I get demoted, Nea goes up.
This seems kinda weird, right?
I have no problem if the game would just straightout tell me: Be an egoistic bastard and escape by yourself.
Then this matchmaking would award a playstyl that is intended. However this is clearly not the case. The game contradicts itself with this system, rewarding and punishing the same action at the same time.
Still they could work on this. Maybe count it as an "escape" if you are alive when the gates open.
Now, do you believe they will work on this...
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I took it differently. The bit where he said something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be better to do all of those things and escape" I understood was to make a trial feel more rewarding for putting all the effort in and getting a victory, and MMR would help by putting you in trials where your chance of escaping is increased, based upon who you were playing against.
His way of presenting it was poorly done, as clearly it can rightly or wrongly be interpreted it in many various ways, but after digesting it I feel this interpretation makes the most sense.
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But thats the goal of the mmr. Even if you are an altruistic player, who sacrifices themself, you get a 50% escape rate. Bc they want to avoid that someone always dies and if you get higher mmr while dying, that would happen. They want that every playstyle feels rewarding and the reward is escaping.
Nea having a higher mmr doesnt mean that she has more skill than you.
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Its in the best state ever but that doesnt mean its in a good state.
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I think that's what's sad about it.
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A better answer would have been, "We tried a bunch of different matchmaking algorithms, and the one that gave the most fair matches was the one we have implemented."
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Except, in practice, it wasn't.
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At least it didn't give the boost to the person doing literally nothing all game :)
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You need to stop treating MMR as a rank or bragging rights. Losing MMR isn't "being penalised", it's literally just a way to match you with other players.
If you're doing something that is consistently getting you escapes, then you're doing something your opponents can't compete with. Therefore you should be matched with opponents who can.
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It wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't taken 2 years to implement this system. Or if it took into account what had been done over the course of the game.
But it took 2 years. For this. For a system that only measures kills and escapes when the devs themselves literally said that that was a garbage system.
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I think a lot of people are looking at mmr wrong.
It isn't a case of your mmr is higher so you are a better player. It isn't meant to be compared.
If a person can hide in a corner and still get out of the exit gate then shouldn't they start facing stronger killers who don't lose what bassically is a 3v1?
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Read the comment above.
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I can't say I'm happy with what was said, but I appreciate the honesty. That's what we've all been wanting, right?
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That it took 2 years... yeah I agree.
But that last part is disingenuous.
The original system that they say failed only took into account kills and escapes. This new system revolves around kills and escapes, but the amount at which your MMR increases/decreases is more complicated and based on things like how long it takes to die/escape/kill, and in what order.
It IS more complicated and nuanced than just dying or escaping, and that fine tuning is likely what makes this system work while the first one failed.
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Thats like saying the tallest midget at a circus. Your still short.
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A lot of people are looking at it exactly the way it was sold to us aka as a SKILL based system, except, admittedly, there's no skill factored in. Again, for the dev's own admission.
I think this is what rubs many people the wrong way, especially after two years where we were asked to blindly trust the system and eventually it turns out we were lied to. And we found out only because their hand was forced by leaks.
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And the killer point system is worse b/c they give diminishing returns on kills. To me this just confirms the devs consider 2 kills, 2 escape as their goal for a balanced match. I agree the emblem system was a better sbmm than putting so much weight on escapes/kills only.
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Bro I usually play extremely altruistic. I don’t like leaving people behind. I can loop the hell out of a killer and I know when to prioritize gens but my survivor matches are becoming frustrating because my team is becoming increasingly more incompetent and it finally makes sense with this system. You are PUNISHED for being a team player yet they expect you to be one.
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