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Can we please have a Killer that can stand up to High Rank SWFs without getting Nerfed.
Billy, Nurse, Pyramid Head were all nerfed because their strong points stood an actual chance against SWF Comp Teams. Now Spirit and Wraith is heading to that direction where in the highest of highest gameplay they were struggling to get 2Ks.
Can we please have a Killer that can stand a chance in the highest of Games untouched? I know BHVR is looking at Pinhead with that Iri fang, Hoarder and Fraklin's
Comments
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Getting a 2K on a comp team seems balanced, if not a bit overpowered if you factor in that the same killers will be going against solo players too.
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Wraith had never a chance. It doesnt matter if some killer are viable against comp teams. Even if a killer is viable against them, survivor can bring equipment, which is banned in tournaments, making it unfair again. For example even at his strongest pyramid wasnt viable against bnp/styptic etc, even against 4 strong medkits its unbalanced. And in most tournaments survivors have even a limit on perks. And some maps are never played.
To be fair on the killer side are also some things banned and you could use it, but its not much.
So against a swf comp team, which can use everything, nothing was ever balanced. Maybe old omega nurse and spirit with the strongest addons at release, but i doubt it.
So while i think that the billy and pyramid nerf was too much and the wraith basekit nerf completely unneccesary, old spirit and nurse needed to be closer to other killer. Now survivor just need to be nerfed more.
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They wish they can have a 2K as Killers against Comp Teams are even struggling to get a Kill.
Good Examples of this are:
Tru3 (Wraith) vs Oracle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3J-WImbQIs
Dowsey (Twins) vs Oracle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f4GXiJPYmk
CoconutRTS (Huntress) vs High tier Players - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35vBSv7zPGw (His build was not meant to win though)
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Nope not allowed to have fun as killer lol
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Nurse and Blight there ya go.
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Ok why not get a video of a comp player going against Oracle. Xenos 4ked with Demo and nerfed Billy. Just because you or a streamer cant 4k against a comp team doesnt mean nobody can.
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We should balance around people having sweaty matches in kyf? Why?
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Didn't Demo got nerfed? If I remember correctly BHVR nerfed his Black Heart and Barbs glasses add on because it was strong on Chases.
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Money.
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And IIRC this was before demo go his addonpass and basekit buff.
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Sure, why would anyone ever want to balance from the top down?
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There are two things wrong with the inherent balance of the game.
The first and ABSOLUTE foremost. The Devs do not play, or, are bad at their own game. Now this is not in itself bad, most Devs are not actually that good at their own game. Thats fine, they're devs, they're not pros or streamers. They're casual gamers making a game.
The problem is now the 2nd. They do not listen to good players in this game ABOUT the balance of the game. If you are not good at the game, you cannot understand why doing X Y Z is good or bad FOR the game. And if you do not listen to people who DO understand why X Y Z is bad/good, you will not make good balancing decisions.
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The Devs consider a 2k to be a balanced outcome, meaning you're not supposed to be able to stand up to a high rank SWF.
Post edited by Clowning on3 -
Pinhead isn't going to get changed regarding Hoarder/Franklin's due to its strength. It's going to get changed (hopefully) because it's the most insanely unfun thing in the game.
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Then you have to buff him appropriately because he is pitifully weak without his Box.
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I wish we would actually forget the 2k 2e is balance and more likely the skill of the players and teamplay
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Hoarder and franklin are going to get change because survivor will complain about the synergie the perk provide to the killer. They will say the killer should not have acces to chain hunt because of a perk combo or something like that
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2K is the "balance" point, as a "win" for Killer.
Thats the clear standard from stats.
There are too many Killers, abilities, perks to rationally "balance". Atbest, just specific outliers can be adjusted.
The only meaningful way to swing 2K as "win" standard, would be changes to core game mechanics that affect all Killers and/or all Survivors.
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Oh here we go. "Killer has fun thing that survivors can play around but it's 'unfun' to survivors so it must be nerfed"
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Actually the devs said they're not looking at hoarder or Franklin's on him. The iri fang probably, just add a range requirement.
I'm all for good and strong killers, nearly all need a buff and things like base regression and kicks should be changed.
But the fang is abit strong, need a slight change/requirement. But pinhead shouldn't break his chains and they should always spawn infront/side of where the survivors facing
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Nope cause as a soloQ, you have pretty much all the informations needed with kindred, perk that no one use cause survivors have it ez.
Killer should have an average kill rate of 50% at high MMR against SWF, with a deviation of 25%.
Then SBMM would have a sense, putting good soloQ survivors together that all have kindred and know how to play against a good killer.
Even though SBMM should be tweaked as taking in account only kills and escape is dumb.
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Do you genuinely think it's fun for survivors to constantly deal with a chain hunt? Honestly ask yourself that question. Something can be fun for one side but unhealthy overall.
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You can still solve the box against a hoarder pinhead. The only thing hoarder does that pinhead can't do without it is chase down a survivor who picks up the box near the killer and doesn't try to solve it instantly. In any other situation, survivor picks up the box outside of hoarder range or survivor picks up the box and immediately starts to solve it, hoarder does nothing.
Not to mention Pinhead still needs to be able to stop whatever they are currently doing in order to chase after the box holder. Smart survivors generally wait til pinhead is stuck in an action (such as carrying another survivor) before going for the box.
I swear the people who complain about the perk syngery have never actually played many games with it, because I can tell you from experience you will not get hoarder value every single game you play as pinhead.
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You kind of already have spirit and blight if you want to sweat alongside 4-man SWFs competitive teams all the time. But that is really up to you.
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Its a game.
Whats not "fun" about dealing with the core mechanic of Cenobite?
What is your intepreration of "fun" and is it not thus "fun" for the Cenobite Killer player?
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What? Every Pinhead I've ever encountered with that build chases the box. There's no other reason to run that build. Yeah, I'll just pick it up out of Hoarder range on The Game or Midwich.
Being interrupted by a chain every two seconds is the unfun part.
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I dont think its possible, or desirable for the game to be programmed to spawn chain portals in Chain Hunt as specific to where the Survivor is facing.
Player behavior is unpredictable, and facing can be changed instantaneously.
Worse, they arent even connected, as as a Survivor can be moving in one direction, though their facing is another, such as looking backwards while running forwards.
Player facing is irrelevant to the Chain Hunt mechanic, all that matters, is that the Chain Hunt mechanic applies the chains it should so as to facilitate the amount of delays and checks to slow them down.
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If the pinhead gets the notification and can stop what he is doing to go after you, he will. But that's not something that is possible 100% of the time.
A survivor picking up the box and trying to solve it when pinhead is nearby will still get the killer to chase after them without hoarder, because solving the box reveals your location as well. It's only when the survivor tries to run with the box that hoarder has given any real value to the killer.
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Being interrupted by chains is how the core mechanic of Pinhead works.
Its not "fun" either for Killers to discover that an unhooker had BT, and the unhooked one absorbs a wasted hit.
Im seeing a lot of this "fun" argument thrown around, and its all subjective and irrelevant to balance.
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Oh come on, as good of a perk as Kindred is, it barely touches equaling all the information that a SWF on comms has. And a SWF gets to run an extra 4 perks because they don't need Kindred on everyone, making them that much more difficult to deal with. A killer that can 2K a comp team would destroy a bunch of Kindred running solos.
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Not anymore. Peanut explained how MMR system works.
You can lose MMR or Gain MMR. It depends who you kill and what your MMR is. Long story is that you should aim to kill the toxic Flashlike clicking Neas, P3 Quentins and P3 Bills over baby Fengs and Kates.
I find it funny they give a chart on kill rates to find out how well baby nurses kill players, but no chart for how well high MMR players killers do vs high mmr survivors.
Your attitude is exact reason balance of killers at higher level gets ruined for a lot of 4.4 and 115% m/s killers.
"Spirit gameplay is flip-coin, boring"
"Deathslinger is shots are unreactable, unfun killer to play against"
"Freddy and Wraith see my aura, unfair"
I could go on with forever freddy, old Billy and recent one "top knot Oni". Point being is none of these killers were unfair, they were beatable challenges that required skill for survivors to win.
I'd say Franklin demise+Hoarder is like new forever freddy build for Pinhead. Its designed around giving killers a way to 4vs1 pressure survivors without relying on rng-based perks such as Hex:Ruin. I believe one of questions asked on Patrick on stream was about generator speed in which Patrick replied with big fat no.
By saying no, he is indirectly saying that generator defense perks, slugging and game delay mechanics such as pinhead box, forever freddy add-ons and reverse bear traps are healthy gameplay mechanics. It makes little sense to why they weaken perks like pop goes weasel and like twin/oni slugging etc. so on. The game just goes too fast for killer at base and killer will use these mechanics in attempts to balance the game.
On final note, there are certain mechanics that I dislike playing vs as survivor. Two majors ones are Mori's that skip hook states and very extreme versions of killer anti-loop. So for exmaple, I dislike playing against Purple Tombstone piece Myers. People say you can jump into lockers or spam vaullt pallets to prevent getting Moried, but Myers with M&A has 8 meter TR and will not activate his 99% unless you are out of position, so the gameplay on this add-on is hear no TR, Instant-kill. Tamper timer+Jigsaw sketch/Crate of gears pig is no different. For price of being downed, you run risk of not having enough time to search all boxes into a mori made more unfavorable by maps RPD, Mother dwelling etc. The same can be said stuff like old frank mixtape legion or omega/5 blink nurse. Not much counter-play for survivor in avoiding the hit.
So I dislike low-survivor killer interactions mechanics. It doesn't mean that those mechanics necessary should be made worse though unless everyone agrees that those mechanics are unfun so I'm low-key happy of that tamper timer pig nerf.
edit: typos.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on2 -
Nurse is still a very viable option.
Spirit right now also remains a viable option (at least until the dusty footsteps make it in).
the main issue at hand is, that an actually balanced 1v4 Killer is automatically going to be considered "unfun", because they are going to be oppressive in chases, which the Survivor community absolutely does not want (understandably so, given chases are the only interaction you have with the killer and everything else is just holding down a button).
its also quite appearant that the Devs value "fun" (i put this in quotation marks, because the concept of fun is entirely subjective and is going to vary from person to person) over an actually well balanced game, therefore they will do their best to step away from any oppressive chase Killers (as they have done with Spirit and Deathslinger in the latest PTB), meaning both Spirit and Nurse are very likely to receive more nerfs in the future.
this however leads us to some other issues:
1) this game is not built to be a balanced and fun 1v1 centered game. the whole concept of an asymetrical 1v4 game is, that the one player that goes up against a team is always going to have the upper hand in any 1v1 engagement (like Spirit, Nurse and old Deathslinger did). Currently however, Killer has been reduced to nothing more than the reactive role to what the Survivors are doing. The Killer is not the one dictating the games length nor are they the one dictating chases (you will only get a hit on a Survivor if they screw up during their loops (at least if you want said hit to happen before the 5th gen popped)), meaning they are very clearly not the power role they should be.
2) it makes absolutely no sense to push a competetive matchmaking system on a game where clearly the focus is not on it actually being balanced. that will just make high level play unbearable for Killers.
and those problems lead us to one more, overall problem:
The overall Killer experience is going to suffer.
a game where everything seems to be stacked against you (you are outnumbered, have no say in the games length and are a purely reactive role) and where you feel powerless the entire time just is not a fun experience for many, including me.
and i can only speak for myself here, but i will stay on a break from this game until something has been done about the miserable Killer experience we currently have.
whether that being the games length being tremendously increased to match all the 1v1 options survivors have (so they actually run out of ressources at some point) or Killers being made more oppressive in chases again, i dont necessarily care. But something has to happen.
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The issue with "Teamplay" is that they use voice chat features and can call out their locations set up plans for flashlights bangs etc. SWF teams have a major advantage over killers just with that or they will body block and stack on a hook which is considered griefing and a reportable action.
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I agree with all but spirit. She really needed to be nerfed.
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such variety.
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Gen speeds are un-fun.
SWF is un-fun.
Med kits are un-fun.
Toolboxes are un-fun.
Deadhard is un-fun.
Several loops/maps are un-fun.
Etc etc etc.
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Personally I think BHVR would have to be way more strategic in their killer buffs if they want them to compete at the highest level. You would have to make each killer be like Nurse or Blight where they are powerful but very difficult to master. You couldn’t just make Leatherface as simple to play as he is right now while being way more powerful or you would make the game incredibly killer sided at all other levels of gameplay. But you also run into the problem that if every killer is only very strong after you have mastered them, than the lower skilled killers are going to miserable time and like 9/10 killers would be unhappy with the game.
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Spirit won't be able to hold up come this 19th KEKW
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Do you think its fun for pinhead mains to constantly play break-a-pallet-simulator because any survivor with a brain knows to drop early, position and then theres sod all the Pinhead can do?
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The game is pinheads worst map. Never ever seen him get a kill on that map when im playing survivor, and when i play pinhead, i get 1-2 kills at most.
Its counterable. Just because you dont know how to counter it is your own problem.
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There's not a chance of that happening. Wraith and Deathslinger got nerfed. Plague's getting a joke add-on. Trapper's getting an add-on where he can't pick his own traps up. The devs simply don't want killers to be viable.
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2ks against SWF comp teams sounds ideal to me? Am I missing something
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What's fun for killer? Do you really think running a circle around a low wall loop with 100% visibility on each other and not being able to do anything about it is fun? (hay bales and just farm map in general)
Do you really think trash survivors that just W and predrop while going down the instant they try to mindgame but win anyway because gens speed to kill speed is heavily unbalanced are fun to face?
you think 4 people sweating on coms not for "fun" but to win is fun for killer?
you think the all mighty E to outplay perk is FUN for the killer?
You don't care... as long as you can make baby killer montages where you loop them and make them look stupid you are happy.
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Im having alot of fun messing around. You sweat alot for more than 2k. In the end, both of us would have equal of 2k.
But non-able mind game loops should gone.
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The funny thing is that people complain about Deathslinger and then talk about those loops. I think they should stay as long as you can mindgame at them with Ghostface, Pig and Wraith. Maybe the key to those loops is that they should unsafe.
I had two interesting games yesterday with Cenobite that showed just what you said: He is fine. Survivors have to learn how to play against him.
The first game was against bad survivors. They let the chain hunt trigger every time and then went for the box only to summon me while standing at a corner of the map. I downed the summoner every time and it resulted in only one guy escaping, the only good survivor that looped me for quit some time, dodged my chains like a pro and then fund hatch.
The second game was against some good survivor, a 2-2 lobby. They took the box, they waited a while and then solved it. Almost every time I spawned with a wall between me and the survivor, leading to a bad chase for me. After a while I no longer ported and kept chasing my current victim. They all escaped with me reaching 5 hooks at the end.
Cenobite has clear counters and clear strenghs. Finaly a Killer you can play without having to rely on Ruin/Undying to get some slowdown. Even with Hoarder he is not that oppressive. Most survivors will loop you for some time even while holding the Box unless you have that one add-on where they are Exhausted.
Maybe chains should not interrupt you while solving the box, everthing else is fine in my opinion.
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So in front or to the side.. theres real no reason to try get technical atm the chains are meant to spawn in the open so they dont break instantly.
Also just programming it to spawn in the direction the survivors are running isnt that bad. Once again though breaking your own chains is stupid and alot of the time the reason you dint get hits
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And how would you suggest they balance the game? They already tried to balance based on skill with the emblem system and it failed miserably.
You have to balanced the game on what everyone perceives as a win and a loss. Killers see a win as getting 3 or 4 kills. Survivors see a win as getting 3 or 4 escapes. That's your primary objective in the game and everything you do is to achieve that objective. This distills down a survivors and killers skill to do a specific objective.
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100% what you said. Hes very easy to counter, just the majority on here dont want to learn anything, they just want it all to be easy and cookie cutter. Anything remotely interesting they want gone.
Pinhead is a really well designed killer who is fun to play, and very easy to go against. Hes mid to low tier, and still people cry.
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Very very obvious the dev's DON'T like the idea of a skilled killer using that skill to win consistently.
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Nah. Let's give Spirit, a Killer that used to be balanced, 50 unjustified nerfs
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