Gen Rushing is an Excuse for Bad Killers.
Many times this week I have been told to "rush gens harder" or something of the sort every time my team escapes. Disregarding the fact that many of these killers had meta slowdown (Ruin + UD, Ruin + Pop, etc.) it always seems that the killer doesn't recognize their mistakes but blames the survivors for their loss. And to a degree, yes, survivors make the killer lose, but only when outplaying them consistently. I see a lot of people claim that "survivors are the power role in high play", and while survivors are very strong in that level, its not the whole picture. People seem to forget the fact that *good survivors should escape*. The reason these people aren't dying is because they're very experienced and know the game in and out. They know how to adapt and play based on the situation. Now, why do I bring this up? Because many killer mains will refer to this to discredit survivors. To say "you have it easier than I do, hence your opinion is invalid". And to that I have to say, you're not going against comp squads EVERY match. Sometimes you just lose and you have to accept that. And I know others will say "well what about this?" and list all the busted items survivors can bring. But also you're not going against that every game. Because if you were you probably wouldn't be complaining about gen rushing still.
Killers refuse to just say "gg you guys did good" and want to thrash survivors for just playing the game. Survivor mains do this too, and I've experienced both on an equal amount. But the thing about is that killers are in control for a majority of how the match plays out. You are the opposing force. The killer you choose and the way you play will change the flow of the match. Its when you let survivors have control that you start to lose. And before you even start, no survivors do not control the flow of the match. They can loop and juke all they want but really its how you use your killers power and how you play that dictates that flow. You're the one who can corner survivors. You're the one who can kill them, the one who can decide where they run to next. If you know that a survivor is going to go for a vault into the next loop, you want to cut them off from that. But just because you're trying to do something doesn't mean that survivors are going to just give it to you.
I think a lot of killers just expect survivors to roll over and die or run without a plan. And I also believe this is attributed to the skill curve of DBD. They get conditioned into going against lesser opponents to the point where when they meet a challenge they don't know what to do. So they get frustrated and blame the survivor. To remedy this they run the strongest perks they can for easier downs. But a lot of the time I don't see killers use their perks how they should. I've had killers with ruin walk right past me doing a gen to get a down and instead of going back to push me off they just hook instead. I've also had some who full commit to me then wonder why they lost only chasing one person. And their first response to this is "they're genrushing". They don't take accountability for the fact that *they let me do the gen*. They made no attempt to build pressure yet want to complain that they never had a chance to get pressure. Do you expect us to give you health states? To give you hooks? To just not do gens because it'd be nice for you?
I understand that in some scenarios that its hard to get pressure. Say you get a map that's too big or two survivors ran prove thyself. Something like that. Does it make it harder? Yes. Does it make it impossible? No. Why do you play a 4v1 game and expect to not be challenged by the other side?
Comments
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Shoulda put a TL:DR here...
But to answer your Question? Simply put... survivors can stack multiple second chances which results in 6-9 health states,
and you gotta get 12 hooks in a span of 10 minutes or less... Plus you can spawn on their hexes. making it worthless in the end,
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It's just a frustration thing. Survivors can play well, or they can even play badly but be efficient at gens, and win. You feel a bit robbed because, regardless of winning or losing as a killer in that scenario, it's like the game just slipped out of your control despite you not making mistakes. Good loopers, efficient gens, efficient saving and use of time, bad or large maps, perks and second chances. Everything adds up and they create what can feel unwinnable, in fact sometimes it is.
You can't apply enough pressure to good survivors like that to win, generally speaking, at high 'MMR'. At lower MMR those meta gen managing perks aren't as strong because bad killers can easily be countered by bad survivors pre-dropping pallets and holding Shift+W. Add on gen efficiency, something any bad player can be good at, and winning as a mediocre killer is equally somewhat out of your control. With how MMR works, it won't matter how good you get, you're going to always feel at a disadvantage. You're more likely to hear gen rushing from 'bad' killers because they don't understand how to create pressure, but at high MMR, the fact is, it's actually very, very difficult to create pressure against skilled players.
Some people forgo absolutely everything to do generators. You avoid a dull totem, you avoid a chest, you avoid healing others or being healed yourself. You do everything you can imaginable to do anything other than M1 a generator, possibly even bringing perks and addons to make it faster. You may just be doing your objective but you can't pretend like you're interested in interacting with the killer, and you just want to interact with a generator.
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All second chance perks can be played around. Unbreakable is kind of iffy since you don't know a survivor has it until they use it, but many of them have become very balanced. DH can be baited or forced by outplaying survivors. DS deactivates when you progress the match. BT is avoidable by simply not tunneling while also being a way to add a little more delay if you do hit as it inflicts deep wound.
Also not everything needs a TL;DR since they can really cripple the argument by leaving out essential information.
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Ah yes the DBD forum classic of "no, YOURE (insert word here)!"
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It really gets funny seeing posts like this that are so defensive about their one side and calling the other side trash because apparently using stuff that is a problem is an “excuse for bad players.” Get a grip m8.
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Lmao us vs them at its finest. Why can’t both sides just come together and acknowledge both sides have problems and not call everyone trash? Community would be so much better.
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While I agree that skilled survivors can be tricky, it's also the fact that they avoid healing and totems to work through gens that makes it very easy to snowball against them. Many will get cocky knowing that they're about to win and play a little more recklessly. That's the part where you punish them. You make them use resources early and create dead zones. DBD is like tug of war. For every one action you can respond with another. And it's not about who pulls the hardest but more so wearing out your opponent to the point where they can't pull back anymore.
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It's not so defensive as it's trying to disprove a common misconception. I never intended this as a "ur bad and im better" post. More as a message and a few tips on how to avoid losing easily.
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I dont really get the hate for second chance perks or how they auto give health states.
Second chance perks are bandaid fixes for flawed game mechanics or playstyles which are widely considered "unfun". DS and BT for tunneling and camping, UB for slugging, etc. The only one which I can see as being remotely a "free health state" is DH and even that is easily baited once you know they have it. And yes it can be used for distance but only once like every other exhaustion perk - though DH gives the least amount of distance at that...
TL:DR - I dont camp, tunnel or slug and never see BT, DH or DS and if I am forced to proc them its rare and ends very badly for the survivors...
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Survivors are mainly in control, I don't know what level you play at if you claim that isn't the case at high level. The killer is the counter force, but by no means do they have the majority of control. It isn't 100% in the hands of either side, but it is tilted to survivors.
Your argument that good survivors are supposed to escape even showcases this. Because the counter should also be the case, good killers should get kills.
Survivors ask for freebies all the time, the whole survivors rule book for killers, the complaints about camping, tunneling, etc. Is just the same thing.
I have stated even tonight that survivors played well, gave me little options and so I camped at 1 gen, got a second one on the end game collapse and got called ***** **** camper.
Do gens, play to win... people will whine, but don't be mistaken in the end the advantage still lies with survivors.
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this
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If 'second chance' perks didnt exist then thered be barely any escapes. Youre up against a killer which is faster, have infinite use of their power, has blood lust and you have a map which has a finite number of pallets which once gone leave you with not much if anything to use.
Escape rates are already poor compared to kill rates and thats with 'second chance' perks.... imagine how bad it'd be without them. Theyre in the game because theyre needed.
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Slamming gens is fairly frequent at high MMR.
I see good gen progression in every other game.
I see actual 'gen rush' in maybe one in every six games. Not too often.
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Plenty of survivors escape all the time without second chance perks.
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Even with meta perks, gens times are a problem. And, since the meta perks can be removed from the match early, it's even worse. The killer says that out of frustration. It's not the fault of the survivors that they can gen rush, it is the fault of the game design. Likewise, your idea that it is just because the killer got outplayed, is flawed. There is not some great skill involved in gen rushing. You didn't out play the killer, you just used the mechanics that favor survivor success. Killers have to play sweaty in order to be successful. Gen rushing does not require any great gameplay by the survivors, it is just a time factor. Given equal amounts of skill, the game is the survivors' to win or lose. They have the control, not the killer.
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On high tier killers. it ain't so much the dh thing...
Now lets talk about the walking m1 killers... the ones that Have to pallet loop with survivors.. they don't even stand remotely a chance against even High Mmr survivors..
Dh is Really powerful and people don't even realize it,
Not all Second chance perks...
You can't really outplay Dh if they wanna use it for distance and get to another pallet loop..
You can't really outplay the Ds / Unbreak together without eating one.. or the other,
You need to make sure as killer you'll get a chase in less than 15-20 seconds, otherwise bruteforce it and try again on a diff survivor..
At High Mmr it's quite....Brutal to say the least
Edit: And to SleepyWillo. sure you can Not camp Tunnel or Slug, but you will when it involves a whole ass Sweat Game..
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I think the difference is that the killer doesnt know they dont have them... If there were no second chance perks in the game then you would see the difference
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Gens speeds are an issue when both sides are playing well. If both play with peak efficiency then by devs balance ideals 2 survivors would still die.
When survivors play well; chases can be extended well beyond the time it takes for a single gen and at least one gen is always in progression.
When killers play well; there is no guarantee that downs come quickly only that loops are reduced to the minimal # of rounds before pallets drop or breaking off to a new one. Either they can bait out a mistake or brute force until a down is accessible.
Gen perks do little more than add a set time extension if the prerequisites are not met to use them consistently;
Ruin only effects the one survivor in chase
Pop only helps if downs can be secured before gen completion
Deadlock is useful only if a second gen has progression
Corrupt secures a section of the map for a short time
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Well, whether it's true that some killers doesn't recognize their mistakes, you also have t orecognize that the killer itself is not really as different as survivor (specially those called M1 killers), so basically if you didn't set trap as the trapper is like having a survivor moving slightly faster against 4 survivors repairing gens. The vast majority of survivors are not good, that's why they always lose... or when you're good but paired with 3 potatoes... there's so much you can do. That's why we have the two sides, the vast majority complaining to killers being OP but not realizing they're just bad, and the other part of high MMR killers that complains about 3 min matches.
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It depends.
Some killers really do not recognize their misplays in chase and some even fail to realize what an overly short match is (A Legion once said "gen rush" after a typical 10 minute game).
However if the killer blatantly goes out of their way to not tunnel, camp or slug throughout the entire match ("fair killer") and the first thing you do is complete a gen after getting unhooked even before healing up typically resulting in short matches where everyone ends the match with low points then yeah I agree - that's just rushing your objective/gens despite the fact you're putting yourself at risk and reducing gameplay for everyone in the match.
You get shorter chases, teammates get less altruism, the killer gets less chase points. That's just being scummy to everyone in the match.
If the killer tunnels everyone off the hook at 5 gens whilst running every slowdown perk in the book then I get it - you have to ignore everything and do gens asap if you want a chance to escape but what I'm saying is nearly all survivors couldn't care less what the killer brings or what they play like.
They'll try to fly through the gens as quickly as possible rushing their objective even if the killer is not rushing their objective and hooking every survivor equally.
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Gen rushing is a result of poor time management by the killer and if they cannot build pressure then the survivors played better. It's really as simple as that in most cases. Like I already stated killers change the flow of the chase and can lock down gens to be more advantageous to what they want. The neglect of doing so is what makes killers lose. Yet again, denial of responsibility for the killer role.
There are very few things that you can use to "rush gens". There's prove thyself and toolboxes but that's it. Anything else is the killer not taking charge of their objective and being punished for doing so.
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i got recommended a video by yt recently that was pertinent, any thoughts op?
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I would like to hear OPs thoughts on this as well.
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I mean... that's how it should be and that's still a very win-able game he had. Corrupt gave him a loose 3 gen at shack, 2 o'clock, and main. Plus he kicked most of the strong pallets on the whole right side of the map in the first chase. It's a dead zone at that point.
So now he has a loose 3 gen, Pig traps, and PGTW. If killers can't win that or at least get a 2k out of it, they need to improve their game sense. Lose Tinkerer since he's on Pig and tracking perks are pointless in high level play. Take NOED or a chase perk. 4k.
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Fun fact otz did an experiment with a 4 man with no perks and just items.... needless to say you dont need 2nd chance perks to escape but adding them just makes survivor more op than they already need to be. They got knocked down from their god role when infinites and half the pallets were removed... how about me knock them down from demi-god role to immortal, the same as killer
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No, it's not a matter of poor time management by the killer. Gen times are too short. You can finish gens in a short period of time without even having perks or items to improve that. Plus, most killers just don't have the tools to effectively build pressure, no matter how sweaty they play. The idea that the only reason a killer can't build pressure is because the survivors played better is based on ignorance of game mechanics and how the various killers play. Whether that is genuine, or feigned due to survivor sided bias, I can't say. Again, there is no skill involved in gen rushing. Given players of equal skill, eliminating your one side outplayed the other scenario, survivors win.
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Doesn't the title literally have the Us. Vs Them mentally in it?
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How is his statement any different than your post?
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Is saying genrushing an excuse for bad players? Sure some of them say that sure. But is genrushing a thing? Yes.
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it's winnable because this guy plays killer like a second job and was able to come back because the survivors are boosted genrushers
that scenario would just be a 3-4e for most killers because creating that kind of pressure out of gate power + everyone alive is kind of insane
it doesn't really matter what part of the map becomes a deadzone when your second chase = all gens completed and it's just their endgame trade perks vs any endgame perks you'd happen to have, even if all your chases happen in that part of the map and suddenly chases take 20 seconds to end from full health (because two are stuck to gens and one is saving), and in order to compensate he pretty much ripped the entire rulebook in half which was fun for nobody
if this is how it's supposed to be then spirit should be losing all audio information not giving headphone users 24/7 radar detection
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Gen rushing is doing the objective to the best of your abilities.
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I mean, it is not really an excuse. It is just not mathematically feasible under certain circumstances. Like... I do not even care if it happens to me. I do not even run slowdown because I feel it is such a negligible difference. But gens can totally be rushed. I am sure better killers can handle it better, but even the best get gen rushed. So, I do not know what your point is.
I guess you are salty that killers do not respect survivors who can glue themselves to gens? I doubt you respect all my face camping kills either. And it is because it is so low effort. Its fine, you can hammer gens out, I can hammer smash your face on hook. No need for us to validate each other.
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Yes that is what genrushing is.
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Gen rushing isn't a thing, neither is camping and tunneling, also slugging isn't a thing.
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I agree that most killers struggle in that situation. But that's why we call it high level play. Most killers aren't at that level. I'm not the best killer in the world by any means, but I'm still 4k'ing 90% of matches since SBMM came out. But I played comp for years, so I'm used to dealing with that gen speed. It's doable for killers, just takes a ton of finesse and practice on M1s. I think over time killers will adapt to these game speeds in a public match setting.
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It exists. Granted, it's not really as much the survivor's fault as much as it's the dev's since it's not really an inappropriate action but just the symptom of the devs not balancing the game. Are the gen's maximum efficiency fast enough to the point to where it's not reasonable for the killer to complete their objective? Yes. This is especially apparent due to the state of most maps and the survivor meta of running perks that lengthen the time it takes for a killer to progress his objective.
If the time efficiency of the game's objectives were actually relatively equal, you would see more killer variety at the higher levels. For the vast majority of maps and playable killers, the gen speeds are laughably short.
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Dead Hard also works incredibly well and consistently against 2/3 top killers. You can dead hard into blight/nurse on reaction to avoid hits. Blight can sometimes bait it out with extra rushes but if the survivor dead hards into a spot where another rush wont reach or if blight is out of rushes it doesn't matter still.
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🤦♂️
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yes.
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We're not asking for easy wins we're asking to not lose 5 gens in less than 4 minutes.
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Actually I think there's a really common misconception among people playing killer that if the match is "balanced" then there's a 50/50 chance the killer will stop the gens before anyone escapes. (And I say this as a killer main myself.) That's not the right way to think about it, though. The devs are clearly balancing the game around the idea that the median result is 1-3 survivors escaping, with 4 kills and 0 kills being uncommon results. So 4 kills is actually a "total victory", not a "close game", and if the killers and survivors are equally skilled you should expect the gates to be opened the majority of the time with some survivors getting killed along the way and some getting out.
So if a killer says something like "I played really well and they still opened the gates, the game is broken", they're just not realizing that this is intentional. It's supposed to work that way because some of the survivors are supposed to escape most of the time while others die. And that only happens when the gens are completed most of the time, even if the killer plays reasonably well, provided the survivors are also playing reasonably well. It's not a "game balance" problem, it's a perception problem of some players wanting the victory conditions to be something they aren't intended to be.
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lol don't take the "rush gens faster" message personally. it is just the killer saying the game is garbage and you happened to be the person they faced.
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Genrushing exist on its not just an excuse. Most killer use that term when survivor prioritise gen over evrything else and have toolbox. Ofc killer have counter to that its call noed because ruin will be worthless its not like the killer can be on 4 gen at the same time.
I could say the same survivor who blame camping, tunneling and slugging when they die are bad and cant escape the killer because they got caught.
The win condition on both side are different for killer its to kill no matter the amount of hook they get it does not matter.
For survivor its to escape no amount of rescue or chase mattet its only the escape that count. You only need to leave by the gate.
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I mean thats basically what you're doing in this thread tho....
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Man people on this forum are getting called out.
I agree, as killer you should have a strategy for building pressure. Generator defense perks are the most common. It doesn't need to be generator slow-down. It could be tunneling out a survivor using Pyramid Heads kit, It could be slugging with Oni or Nurse. Killers have a greater than 50 percent win rate. That by definition means that they are winning more games then they're losing when we define a win as getting more than 2k in a match. And the game isn't over when all generators are done, they still have to escape.
When killers have a lower than 50 percent win rate globally killers can start complaining about how they're lives are unfair. Until then you guys are entitled babies. <3 fellow killer main.
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Will do, once BHVR decides to balance the game appropriately.
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Laugh out ######### loud. I want you to realize just how dumb your response is.
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Something like no Obsession for example.
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Cause dh op...
it's literally the top perk used in any Sbmm / fuggin Comp scene..
needs nurf
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Pretty sure he was just making an obscenely dumb statement to match the OP, a joke if you will. And to be entirely fair, this thread is "us versus them" from the get go, so there's nothing constructive to salvage here. The truly sad thing is that threads which discuss issues in a civil fashion barely reach two pages, since silly takes result in silly responses, which result in endless free bumps.
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