http://dbd.game/killswitch
Killer vs Survivor
I hope it's not against some rules to talk about streamer's videos, but I would really wanna talk about Otz's new video, because he got some really interesting points.
Basically he played 50 games with survivors using items, 50 games without items and 50 games as a killer without perks.
Win rate and escapes with items: 84% and 3,04 escapes
Win rate and escapes without items: 56% and 2,56 escapes
Win rate and kills without perks: 70% and 3,08 kills.
I think it's safe to say Otz is high MMR and he got same really interesting points.
-Items boost you a lot as SWF.
-Killer statistics are higher than should be because of what they show.
-Survivor perks vs Killer perks, there is big difference that it's easy to find out what killer's perks are, but it's not that easy for killer, he usually pays a lot to find out, so killers just always play around DS / BT even when survivors don't actually have it.
Survivors have usually 0-4 escapes, if they play badly, it just results in 0.
It's not true to the killer, even if killer is bad, it's just rare to have 0 kills, you usually can get 1-2 kills and 3-4 when survivors make a mistakes. 0 is just really rare even for avarage killers, unless you play really friendly.
I wonder what would be result, if you gathered data based on lose (0-1), draw (2), win (3-4). I am pretty sure overall killer results would get down a lot, so their over 50% killrate doesn't really mean that killers are balanced imo.
What do you think about that? Here is video btw, if you wanna watch it:
EDIT: It's important to say, that during those killer games without perks, he really wasn't affraid to tunnel, but he was without perks, so that's expected.
Comments
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Game definitely not survivor sided and I'm waiting for survivor mains to complain here how bad they are and killers needs more nerfs. (No joke)
I'm happy Otz finally recorded obvious. If he went full items and perks it is possible to have 100% winrate once u gather decent teammates.
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I mean it's nothing new that it works like:
Low MMR -> killer sided
Avarage MMR -> kinda balanced for most killers
High MMR -> survivor sided, unless killer is top tier, then it is balanced.
Tournament level is just survivor sided, but that is rare thing, so I wouldn't count that.
It's interesting to see statistic just from High MMR.
My main problem is that both sides have nuclear options (well, some killers don't) and it's just impossible to balance around that.
Then you have also soloQ vs SWF, where difference is just massive.
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It's pointless to talk about MMR since noone knows exact numbers so i would divide it in two groups: experienced and new players.
SoloQ and Swf is same. While swf gives advantages it's scales depending on how good your teammates are. If u all 4 are bad and can't run for 10 sec it doesn't matter if u are on coms.
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My point is not that SWF are OP or anything, but I think they have advantages over soloQ. More info, but that is not going to give you free win, you still need 4 at least decent survivors, weak link will still kill all of you.
I don't wanna see SWF nerfed, I wanna see soloQ buffed.
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Wow an actual honest appraisal of the situation. Its kind of rare on these forums.
Unfortunately I don't think this forum will like that, the narrative tends to be 'poor killer', the fact that an average killer will still get kills, compared to an avarage survivor who will never escape is telling you something about the current dichotomy.
Consider too, the fact that killers have been over 3+ kills holds well against your coordinated swf groups. (You say 50%?)
The points that I didn't see you mention was every game swf for him? If that's so, it would explain his high escape rate.
The real losers here are soloq survivors, which this forum continually fails to talk about.
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There's no way to buff solo by not making survivors busted.
For example if we take most popular opinion *Kindred Base kit* it already gives me 2 free slots to bring something powerful. I don't need Spine Chills and Kindred anymore if i can see all other survivors any time cause it allows me to track killer any time too.
If we make something like Detectives base kit it will destroy Hex users.
And there are many many ifs* that will harm killer even more unless u want to buff every single killer in a way so they can match this power but it will end up low to casual players quit cause they refuse to *git gud* and want to play *for fun*.
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Interesting, killer has higher winrate than swf.
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84% vs 70%. How is it 70 is higher than 84?
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Doesn't Kindred only activate when someone is on hook?
A totem counter is all that is needed for base kit.
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It's 70% vs 56%, if he used broken addons and no perks he would've got higher kill counts.
By comparing perkless survivor and perkless killer it results that killer has a higher winrate than swf.
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I doubt anyone think that reveal killer part should be base-kit. That would be huge for everyone, even SWF.
Changes I would do:
-Survivors can see each other when someone is on hook.
Simple change of something in this game already, just kindred without killer aura and would probably help most to soloQ.
-HUD icon, which shows when survivor is in chase.
This wouldn't really be that hard, we have indicator for that -> Obsession, just make it for every survivor in game and actual obsession will be highlighted in red instead of white.
-Show each survivors perks in lobby.
This one would be probably hardest to implement, but would help to prepare for game a lot, because you might fill roles with perks, when noone uses them. You could bring totem detection perks or BT, when you see noone uses them. On other hand when you see that 2 players are already using Inner Strenght, then it would be good idea not to use that too.
Those changes would help mainly soloQ and wouldn't change SWF much.
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The thing is perks like kindred, bond, buckle up and so that give informations about either the killer or your fellow survivor are the ones that swf can already bypass with comms and that is the problematic advantage.
Swf can hypothetically have (iirc, outdated info) 10+ info perks roughly substituted with effective use of comms.
Now give those perks all as basekit to all survivor and the impact for soloQ will be exponentially greater than for swf.
Of course this will increase survivor potential as a whole and has to be compensated on the killer side.
But many people on this forum plead for this for years and I think it never happen to get all 3 sides on the same level.
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It does but it doesn't change u need it in SoloQ to be sure what are your teammates up to when someone is on hook. If none on hook u don't need kindred.
@Dino7281 I think i figured it out or at least it's worth a try. SoloQ needs Emotes like:
- I'm on gen
- I'm going for save
- I found a hatch
- I found hex
- Killer is on me
- Patch me up
- X player wait for me (sometimes survivors don't see u when u want to heal them and run away)
So whenever u are up to something u can ping them and little emote shows near your Icon. I think that would help a lot.
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Well, it was mainly because he really wasn't affraid of tunneling to win. There is no way he would be able to win against decent squads with multiple dead hooks before kill.
Another problem is that as a killer it needs to be only 1 skilled player, but as survivor you need 4 good players, if there is weak link, everyone will most likely die.
He said that he won a lot of games just from one mistake that someone made even tho they played well before it.
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Yeah, some chat wheel would help too, problem is that still needs that survivor to use it and SWF would not do it, so soloQ wouldn't get that info, that's why I would rather go way with passive info, that is not based on survivor's mood.
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I mean tunneling is a thing and it's available to everyone
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If you go tournament squad, they managed to get over 500 streak, best Otz did was something over 100 as a killer.
So again that is problem 1 skill vs 4 skill players needed.
One bad soloQ can cost you the game, that can't happen as a killer.
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I'm mostly playing survivor like 90-10 currently cause it feel killers are busted and it doesn't encourage me to play killers anymore. And if u are interested I'm all about to nerf/buff every side. I'm not addicted to one side and this BS around entitled killer/survivor is not about me.
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Yeah, but you need to listen to lot of crying, if you go that way...
If you decide to get full nuclear as survivors, you get close to 100% as dead squad too. They just used items, but didn't really go that nuclear. They just wanted to see difference for normal SWF items vs without.
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Nah, we will never see another 50 winstreak from him again post mmr.
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It will work. Not always but will work. Let me give u an example. While u can play games like League u still need to coop with other random players so u have to ping them to get their attention even if u are 4 man squad.
So it's all about win=coop=use emotes or die and complain about how u don't want to coop with other players.
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Yeah, people here are really happy about using entitled mains etc., kinda annoying, instead try to use arguments, right?
Well, some really are entitled af tho...
I used to be like 10-90, but started playing more survivors because of challenges (I don't have killer challenges left) and games can be kinda stressfull for killer in high MMR, which I am really condifent to be there based on survivors I play against, but everyone says that, so it doesn't mean much without number.
I don't really wanna see any nerfs other than offerings, maybe medkits and some broken killer add-ons. Otz's made really good video about that too.
Overall I would like to see soloQ buff, less grind and just buffs to weak killers and perks on both sides, so there just more variety in high MMR, so it's more fun...
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Don't take me wrong, it would help for sure too. Any changes to give soloQ more info is welcomed as long it will not affect SWF too much.
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In short I want following changes but i doubt it will ever happen.
On survivor side:
- Nerf Ds so it doesn't work once gates are open. It's not tunneling when killer doesn't care who to catch and goes for nearest survivor.
- Nerf DH so it either gives u dash or i-frames, not both.
On killer side:
- Nerf Ruin so it wasn't a must have perk to slow down game and make it around 150% but in return buff base kick regression. Like honestly almost every single killer goes for Ruin, then complains how survivors are OP.
- Tune up killers in a way so their power is more important than addons. Also addons can't be a game changer. They should be made in a way so they slightly adjust your gameplay not entirely change it.
On both sides:
- Rework Blood web and get rid of offerings and tier 1/2 perks so survivors have bigger % to get items and not afraid to lose them. For those who wants offerings there should be something similar to temple where u can buy them.
- Nerf items cause they will be more common.
- Fix maps so God loops wasn't so strong. It doesn't feels like u outplayed someone when u abused window or another God loop.
I think it's also worth mention MMR, win/lose, grades, Emotes and solo custom mode for players to practice than need to be done/tuned.
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I think DS is fine now and this change would kill DH.
Nerf ruin and buff base to 150% would help a lot imo, Ruin would still be solid perk -> no need for kicking and it would open a way for lot of alternatives.
Yeah, noone likes add-on dependent killers, but some add-ons are fine when they completely change killer's playstyle.
Blood web sure, items sure
Only thing on map I would really wanna removed is window above basement in Myer's house on Haddonfield, when it spawns that loop is super broken.
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For me Ds is fine until end game, then it becomes stronger than anti-tunneling perk. If hook is nearby and u don't have mori it's guaranteed escape.
DH needs some tuning. It's a joke how popular it is. Like u launch a game, play multiple games and almost every player has it. While most popular alternative - SP, is barely seen on survivors cause it has strong downsides.
While some powers are fine, devs corner themselves to balance it. U can't buff some addons or perks because game changer addons make u broken. It's just too difficult to keep everything in mind.
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DH is more used not really because it is better than SP as a perk, but mainly because it is way easier to use. That's why I use Lithe over SP -> easier to use.
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Played since release and you won't get your survivor revolution unfortunately because of the history of the game and where we are now:
Since release, killer has been buffed, survivor nerfed. This is important to understand and through examples you’ll see why that has happened. It shows you why the game has had the trajectory it has and why you'll keep seeing 'poor killer' posts.
The story is that the devs failed to understand that people would want to play with friends in an online game (serious), what we got was ‘lobby wars’ at release. Where survivors would join different lobbies looking for their friends and leave if they couldn’t find them. It was horrible trying to find games. Hence why we got swf, that completely unbalanced the game by creating coordinated survivors that could communicate. The devs have been nerfing survivor ever since and crippled solo survivor play in that time.
Historically 2 escapes, 2 kills is the devs unit of metric. You don’t have to like that but it’s whats given the survivors all their nerfs and all the killers current buffs. Killers now are up around 70% kills and unfortunately due to the trajectory of the game the 2 escapes and 2 kills has largely been left behind un noticed.
There's been so many survivor nerfs at this point; Infinites gone, vaulting/perk/map/pallet nerfs, bloodlust added, end game timer added, hatch close added. All this has made being killer easier and survivor harder since release.
Look at the SB vs. NOED debates that happened at release all those years ago. SB now is mediocre at best where as NOED is still a high tier perk. SB got nerf after nerf after nerf, layers of nerfs, literally. We never used to have 'exhaustion' you could run balanced landing and SB side by side for separate bursts of speed. Survivors have largely learned that complaining won't do anything.
Killers have learned that if they complain, the devs will isten, this coupled with marketing and advertising. There’s nothing special about survivors, they are just reskins with some new perks that all play the same. THATS IT. EACH killer has its own unique play style and as you see from their advertising, its always new killers they promote heavily. Survivors get a mention, but its never really the selling point. The fact is devs prioritise killers over survivors and its obvious when you consider the following. It also means the devs have created a sense of entitlement around ‘poor’ killers.
DBD reddit, back in the day was all about poking fun at survivors and giving you the impression that every second game is SWF and heavily biased against killers. Which was a lie. OP SWF games are maybe one in 30 games with most swf games being friends who are just wanting to have fun and usually end up wiping. But there was no push back, the killer echo room there would down vote anything survivor sided. This forum is just an extension of that.
That coupled with the points I mentioned previously meant that a lot of survivor mains left the game, or in my case, come onto the forum to laugh at clueless killers only to ge mob by the killer dominated forums.
After you watch nerf, after nerf, after nerf as it all gets taken away. As a survivor you just adapt and overcome and play something else for awhile if it gets too miserable.
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I hope you don't wanna tell me that any of those changes weren't better for the game, right?
Those things were super broken and it worked at the beginning, because dbd started as hide and seek game, but it become super broken when it changed into the game of tag...
Since when is SB mediocre perk and NOED high tier perk?
SB is best, or second best exhaustion perk, I think it is better than DH, but DH is easier to use.
NOED makes you play without one perk whole game and you have chance to get 1 extra kill with it in the end game. NOED is not high tier perk, survivors just don't like to die against it. No Way Out is way better than NOED.
You act like killers didn't get any nerfs, so I would say someone is biased af here...
and I love how you mention only "Killers have learned that if they complain", because survivors never do it, right? :D You are just complaining about it, hypocrit.
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Hahahaha.
Sounds like you regret your OP and how those 'poor killers' aren't so poor.
1) I was replying within the context of his question. The history and trajectory of the game is how I responded. I never said things shouldn't need to happen, I was attempting to explain the why. So????
2) Even if I removed my SB vs NOED comparison, which is good in how it highlights the layers of nerfs. You're skipping over all the other nerfs I included.
3) Killers get nerfs. Look at the Hex: Ruin nerf, but my god, the level of whining that went on from killers, even though it was a nerf that had to happen because newb survivors would just 4k after 4k with it. But it highlighted why the devs can't really do generic nerfs to killers anymore and hit specific killers (gunslinger atm). Because the whining goes through the roof.
Finally, as I explained I come on here to laugh at people like you, not complain. I said good job and then reply to a post asking for more survivor pushback and I explain in great detail why it won't happen. You come at me for complaining? hahahaha you're funny. If anything you're complaining about my response to his post about why survivors won't push back.
Do yourself a favour and delete your OP. You've obviously misjudged how it was going to play out for you.
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Have you even read OP?
Where did I talk about poor killers? I talked about items and statistics. If you actually looked at comments and not just tried to flex about how old you are, then you might even find that I never talked about nerfing survivors overall.
One thing I have found is that playtime does not equal skill, so your "I play from start" doesn't mean anything.
I just talked about video, because Otz's points are really interesting.
I am not going to delete anything, just because you can't read and rather complain about your poor survivor getting nerfed in past, so sad....
I don't care about changes to neither SB, or NOED in past. Fact is that SB is still one of the best survivor's perk and NOED is not really that good, survivors just like to cry about it, that doesn't make it good.
Lot of killers were nerfed in past, lot of killer perks were nerfed in past, some didn't even survive PTB, but oh no poor survivors that don't know anything about balancing and their broken things from early development got nerfed...
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OMG the reach.
You just keep conflating what I was responding to, which still holds btw, you haven't countered it, you've just pivoted into 'you're so sad'. FYI when you resort to personal insults, you've lost your ability to critical think.
I have followed the comments and (once again) said it was a good post.
But like I said, you just seem mad because not everyone agreed with you so??????
Now your flexing on my flex? I guess.
Good for you.
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How did I flex? but I am happy you know that you were just flexing...
I didn't say you are sad, I said that survivors getting nerfs on broken stuff is sad. So IDK where did you found personal insults.. Just sarcasm, not really an insult.
"Sounds like you regret your OP and how those 'poor killers' aren't so poor."
Yeah, I disagree with that, because it's not what my post is about.
"which still holds btw"
what holds? that survivors got nerfed in past?
Sure, they did. But it's not like it wasn't deserved.
"killer has been buffed, survivor nerfed"
I just liked how you mentioned only survivor nerfs, when killers got nerfs too. That's called balancing the game.
"Killers have learned that if they complain"
again, 100% one sided, both sides do it...
"you've lost your ability to critical think."
I can do it quite well, I just don't like hypocrits.
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I love how you just keep ignoring the context of which I was replying to, that somehow your edited rearrangement is a 'gotcha' moment.
You said 'flex about how old you are' I just took your stance on how 'flex' was dervied.
And I can tell it wasn't your intent. Your tone has made that abundantly clear. Sorry you feel your bubble was popped.
It's a shame you don't like yourself.
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Why do you need to resort to weird zingers like, "it's a shame you don't like yourself" after expressing that personal insults were a sign of a lack of ability to critically think? It is just unnecessary, fam.
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Oh, don't wanna talk about what you were responding to anymore, let's get more personal. Don't forget you can lose your ability to critical think. Well, that's assuming it was ever there...
So you wanted to talk about what were you responing to, sure
"Game definitely not survivor sided and I'm waiting for survivor mains to complain here how bad they are and killers needs more nerfs. (No joke)"
I guess this is the part that triggered your comment about poor survivors getting nerfs, right?
How is that and your comment connected?
Noone ever said that survivor didn't get nerfs, they did and they were deserved.
Killers got nerfs too and I would argue some of those definetly wasn't deserved. It wasn't for balancing reason, it was so survivors have more fun playing against those killers / perks reason.
So again, it's not just survivor thing like you tried to tell in your comment.
"Game definitely not survivor sided"
I guess you don't like sarcasm?
Killer / survivor sided can't be used for everyone, it changes based on skill of players involved. High MMR is survivor sided for most killers, tournament level is overall survivor sided for everyone, but that is small number, so I wouldn't really count that for balancing.
"survivor mains to complain here how bad they are and killers needs more nerfs"
You want to tell me, it's not usual for survivor to complain? Like you did on NOED...
Don't take me wrong, both sides do it way more than needed.
I just don't like your version of survivors are only side getting nerfs and killers only complain, when it's just not true.
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'Well, that's assuming it was ever there...'
lol
Also you seem to be a quick typer, or are you just quick with the refresh button?
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do the same experiment but do it solo…
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He's resorted to hypocrite twice now, absolutely ignoring the original context I was replying to. Tit for tat and all that.
I'm just having fun at this point.
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I don't need refresh, it tells me when someone mentions me...
I am quick typer and that's why I often have to edit, because english is not my first language (clearly), I make mistakes and my inner grammar nazi can't allow it.
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There is no need for that, everyone knows that soloQ sucks and needs buff in form of more info.
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Clearly.
I am curious though, is it a slow sinking feeling or more of an apocalyptic panic that ensures it?
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I am glad we are enjoying same thing.
How am I hypocrite? That's going to be fun...
Original context was mentioned above, it's not like you managed to make it invalid in any point.
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It depends on how are u going to play. If u go for wintrading u can escape almost every game. If you go for teamwork it's 50-50.
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Oh we can circle back around to that.
I'm still curious how you managed to misconstrue the post I was replying to?
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Oh right, let's just copy from previous comment.
"Game definitely not survivor sided and I'm waiting for survivor mains to complain here how bad they are and killers needs more nerfs. (No joke)"
I guess this is the part that triggered your comment.
How is that and your comment connected?
Noone ever said that survivor didn't get nerfs, they did and they were deserved.
Killers got nerfs too and I would argue some of those definetly wasn't deserved. It wasn't for balancing reason, it was so survivors have more fun playing against those killers / perks reason.
So again, it's not just survivor thing like you tried to tell in your comment.
"Game definitely not survivor sided"
I guess you don't like sarcasm?
Killer / survivor sided can't be used for everyone, it changes based on skill of players involved. High MMR is survivor sided for most killers, tournament level is overall survivor sided for everyone, but that is small number, so I wouldn't really count that for balancing.
"survivor mains to complain here how bad they are and killers needs more nerfs"
You want to tell me, it's not usual for survivor to complain? Like you did on NOED...
Don't take me wrong, both sides do it way more than needed.
I just don't like your version of survivors are only side getting nerfs and killers only complain, when it's just not true.
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1) Well again, you're deliberately being misleading, or is this English as a second language related. You realise you've edited out the second part of his post right. The part that correlates. So????
2) Really, see point one, or my subsequent points. Because (again) you are misconstruing what's been said. I don't care it was sarcasm, I still addressed his point (which he didn't counter) and (once again) your stuck on NOED when it was an SB vs NOED related point, which was highlighting the layers. But all that really feeds into why this was never a good faith argument to begin with.
I'm going with the apocalyptic panic because 'I'm still curious how you managed to misconstrue the post I was replying to?'
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1) I just expected first part to be your main issue.
"I'm happy Otz finally recorded obvious. If he went full items and perks it is possible to have 100% winrate once u gather decent teammates."
So 100% winrate is your problem? If I remember correctly than record is 500 win streak for survivors. I am pretty sure, if Oracle decided to destroy random killers that wouldn't be issue.
As I said, I didn't edit that on purpose to change it, I just didn't expect that to be your issue with that comment.
2) Correct me if I am wrong, but your point was "killer has been buffed, survivor nerfed" and "Killers have learned that if they complain, the devs will isten".
That's true just partly. Both sides got nerfs and buffs, I would say dbd got better overall compare to past and both sides complain a lot, which just changes based on newest thing. There is ######### tons of bugs, but that is problem for both sides.
If you went just history how game changed with reasoning, I would agree. Your start was quite good, how it started solo, but it changed to SWF etc.
Where you lost me:
Killers now are up around 70% kills
That's not true, noone has above 60% based on big data dbd has. If you wanna talk about Otz, then you would need to use singular and again then we can talk about Oracle too...
Look at the SB vs. NOED
Irrelevant without context, when you have something strong and something weak, of course it will have different changes, that has nothing to do with survivor vs killer
SB now is mediocre at best where as NOED is still a high tier perk
Yeah, that's just not true
Killers have learned that if they complain, the devs will isten
both sides do it, so again my issue is you talk only about killers are bad guys
OP SWF games are maybe one in 30 games
That's not really true with SBMM, because SWF are stacked in high MMR, so you meet them more often now.
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