The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

An essay on the Legion, and what can be done to optimally balance him.

Legion is in a very rough spot right now. The way his power is designed, he currently stands as the worst Killer in the game, but at the same time, he is the easiest one, with the least amount of counterplay. In this thread, I will use my knowledge of Legion and the game as a whole to analyze all of his problems and what can be done to solve them.

First issue: Deep Wound in chases
Deep Wound is unequivocally the cheesiest mechanic in the game. A lot of Legions will resort to simply hitting someone with Feral Frenzy, then moonwalking until the timer drains enough for another Frenzy hit to down them immediately. The problem therein is the design of Frenzy: You can either cheese Deep Wound, spam Frenzy, or just be a 110 speed Killer with no upside. None of the options are very pretty. Many people will resort to the first option, because it is the easiest and takes the least amount of time—something that every Killer is short on.

What's the solution?
Well, it really isn't that simple. The way Deep Wound is designed, directly nerfing the ability to cheese the timer in chases would be a nerf to the rest of the ability overall. The different aspects, strengths, and weaknesses of Legion all overlap, because they all stem from his power and what he's capable of. The best solution I see is to make Legion better at M1'ing so it's a more optimal play than cheesing, which not only buffs and balances Legion by encouraging players to take the high road since it is objectively superior to the cheesy route, but also raises his skill ceiling by offering more counterplay in a chase.

However, this will not be enough, as just making the skilled option stronger won't make the easy option weaker. This means it has to be nerfed in some way. So, what would be the best way to nerf it? There is no easy answer to this question in my sight, but the best one that I can personally reach for is: In addition to the timer not draining during a chase, it will also not drain for a short period after a chase ends—say, five to ten seconds. This may make Deep Wound as a whole less of a threat, but it certainly discourages the exploitation of waiting for it to go down while still chasing the Survivor.

Now, before I go any further, I know some people are asking questions in regards to something I mentioned earlier: Making M1'ing as Legion a superior play to other options in his kit. The truth is, what I've thought out regarding Legion is mostly traced back to his ability to M1—or lack thereof. I wish I could sum up what I had in mind quickly and concisely, but I can't. The best I can do is show you what I mean over the course of this thread. With that said, I'll move on to his second problem, which is also tied back to his ability to M1.

Second issue: Deep Wound as a pressure applier
The idea behind Deep Wound is obvious: You chain hits to apply pressure to Survivors so they don't just flop over and die. But the problem is, with the way Deep Wound and Feral Frenzy is designed, Deep Wound actually takes away pressure from him rather than giving it to him. Why? The answer is simple: Survivors are discouraged to heal against Legion. With Feral Frenzy, it will take the same amount of hits to down an injured Survvor as a healthy Survivor, and without Feral Frenzy, Legion is, as I've emphasized, a 110-speed M1 Killer—something that is of no threat. As such, healing is little more than a time-waster against Legion, and since Mending is faster than healing, a Wounded Survivor will be back to doing gens faster than an injured one in a non-Legion scenario.

What's the solution?
The reason Survs don't heal against Legion is because, once again, he is of little threat as an M1 Killer, and his only other option is spamming Feral Frenzy, which is unaffected by being injured. Although the devs have said they planned to give injured Survivors a shorter timer when Frenzied, I believe this is the wrong buff, as it will take the cheesy, uncounterable parts to Legion's kit and make them even stronger. No, I believe that this is yet another problem that can be traced back to Legion having little M1 power. But aside from that, here are some ideas to make Deep Wound more pressure-worthy:
-Make Mending a healing action. This will allow anti-healing abilities, like Sloppy Butcher and Thanatophobia, to slow down Mending and make it take longer, thus allowing Legion more pressure. In addition, it can be detected by A Nurse's Calling. However, as a trade-off, it can also be sped up by Perks such as Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It, Spine Chill, et cetera.
-Make Mending take 50% longer if Frenzied while injured. This will encourage healing against a Legion without making his power more exploitative than it already is.

I believe this is all I can talk about in regards to Deep Wound. So from this point on, I'll talk about Feral Frenzy, a power with many shortcomings that need to be discussed.

Third issue: Feral Frenzy in chases
Again, M1'ing. Legion has to either cheese Feral Frenzy, which is not counterable, spam Feral Frenzy, which is also not counterable but takes forever, or use his basic attack, which is not doable.

With this in mind, I believe now would be a good time to talk about this whole "M1'ing Legion" thing I keep mentioning. So let me start off by saying: I do NOT believe the solution is to make Legion a 115 Killer. No, that's not right. His power allows him to sprint and fast vault; what needs to happen instead is his power needs to be powerful and versatile enough to justify his 110 speed. But how will this make his M1'ing better, you ask? I'll tell you. See, Legion's biggest weakness is, of course, loops. Because he needs to M1 to be able to take down Survivors in any sort of way that be considered "fast," loops are his biggest enemy. This is what his power should be best for in chases: encouraging Survivors to drop pallets, allowing Legion to destroy them and make the loops a non-issue.

THIS, ladies and gentleman, is the window of opportunity that allows Legion to be a threat when M1'ing. If Legion could stall the game enough to destroy enough pallets, then being a 110 M1 Killer will no longer be an issue. But the combination of the faults in his kit mean he cannot do this: He cannot apply enough pressure to slow gens down to a good level, meaning he cannot take the time to break all the loops, meaning he cannot reach a point where he can M1, meaning he has to resort to cheesing and exploitation to do well. But because his power is the way it is, not even cheesing can get things done fast enough.

What's the solution?
The big aspects of Legion's power I am considering, pressure and M1, are mutually beneficial: The more pressure Legion applies, the closer he becomes to having his M1 be a threat. The more his M1 is a threat, the more pressure he applies. It will even get to the point where people will start wanting very badly to heal against Legion, because without pallets, his M1 now is a true danger, so being injured is very bad, which slows the game down even more.

This is what I believe would change Legion for the better in the best way. By tweaking his ability to apply pressure, the game will grow slower. And when the game grows slower, the next buffs I had in mind can be arranged:
-Shorten the fatigue time when coming out of Feral Frenzy. The fatigue time is long enough that on many loops, Survivors who know about this strategy will often not drop pallets, as that is exactly what Legion wants. But because his fatigue time is so long, Survivors can get on the other side of the loop, allowing the loop cycle to continue. By shortening his fatigue time so he can catch up to the Survivors faster, Legion will become much better at forcing pallet drops so he can break them and grow in power.
-When using Feral Frenzy, the Legion can break pallets while standing still. This will also lend greatly to his ability to delete pallets from the game, since he won't have to waste time coming out of Frenzy just to break a loop.
-Reduce the Feral Frenzy timer from 7 seconds to 6 seconds. This will make it harder to spam it in a chase, allowing some more counterplay in the face of a buffed Legion. (Don't worry, I'll mention a counter-buff to this nerf soon.)

Between the changes to Deep Wound, and the changes to the chase, I assert that Legion will become better at giving himself more time to break pallets and remove loops until there is little to stand in his way, making his 110 speed no longer an issue. However, there is one final topic I'd like to mention.

Fourth issue: Feral Frenzy as a pressure applier
In my time playing Legion, I've found it near impossible to chain hits if the Survivors are not very close to me. Simply by running in the opposite direction when at a moderate distance, they can drain his power gauge completely before he can hit them. This makes it extremely difficult for Legion to set up and apply the pressure he needs to slow the game down. Considering I suggested a nerf to the Feral Frenzy timer earlier, I have two significant buffs that will greatly aid Legion in using Feral Frenzy to chain hits.
-Increase the Frenzy's movement speed from 132% to 140%. This will allow Legion to better clear large distances between Survivors without relying on addons, while also making Exhaustion Perks less of an immediate shutdown to anything Legion can do.
-When hitting a Survivor who is not affected by the Deep Wound status effect, the Feral Frenzy power gauge is refilled fully AND pauses for three seconds. This means that after hitting a Survivor, the Legion essentially has 9 seconds of Feral Frenzy to activate a chain hit instead of 6, giving him 50% more time, which should make chaining hits much easier.

Other problems with the Legion
These are parts of Legion's kit that I could not fit into the other four main issues, or that I believe people will bring up in their responses, and I will talk about here.

1. Gens get done extremely fast. What if the buffs to pressure application aren't enough?
This is a fear that I cannot seem to quell. Even with these buffs in mind, the pressure and stalling potential of Legion can still very well be weak, and I do not know of any ways to fix this issue involving buffs to Legion without making it ridiculous. However, in the state of the game where most Killers must run Perks to get by, I have a suggestion: Thanatophobia. Sure, the Perk itself isn't spectacular by any means, but its near-perfect synergy with the Legion's strengths and weaknesses mean that injuring Survivors as Legion is a win-win. Survivors do not want to heal against Legion, but they do want to heal against Thanatophobia. This can lead to frustration and indecisiveness, giving Legion a mental edge over the game. In addition, it's a win-win in terms of stalling: They either don't heal and have to deal with the repair speed debuff, or they do heal and waste time healing. There's no way out that won't slow the game down in some way. Now, that said, Thanatophobia's debuffs are absolutely pathetic. But if Legion can hit all 4 Survivors and they don't heal, then Thana will add 16 seconds to generator repair times, turning the default time from 80 seconds to 96 seconds. At the very least, that's something to work with. But if Thana were buffed to be, you know, actually usable, it would be more of a must-have on Legion than Monitor and Abuse.

And, of course, if all else fails: Run Ruin. Survivors need a second objective anyway; that will be a better help to Legion than a buff to him ever could.

2. What about vaults? Legion is still weak to them.
This is very true. If a vault is safe enough, then Legion will be left unable to M1, meaning he will have to go to a different Survivor or resort to Frenzy spam. To aid in this, I propose a simple buff: Increase Legion's vault speed from 1.7 seconds to 1.4 seconds. This is faster than Tier 2 Myers (1.5 seconds) but slower than Tier 3 Myers (1.3 seconds). If the optimal play with Legion is making yourself capable of being a 110 M1 Killer, some kind of aid in a chase is in order. Also, this will make Bamboozle on Legion more than just a funny meme to use while Frenzying.

Conclusion
With all the changes I have proposed—the nerfs in some places, the buffs in others, and the tweaks in yet more—I believe this will fix Legion's two biggest issues: Being a bad Killer, and being an easy and unfun Killer to play against. By nerfing the exploitative aspects of him but not nerfing the non-exploitative ones, it will make Legion stronger in the hands of knowledgeable players, while also raising his skill ceiling and giving him more counterplay, thus making him more fun and interesting to play both as and against. In truth, some of Legion's weaknesses aren't a Legion problem; they're a Dead By Daylight problem. This includes gen rushing and the power of looping. But in the face of all this, I've given the Legion the best changes I could think of that would make him stronger, both with how the game balance stands now, and in a hypothetical balanced game.

Thanks for tuning in, and let me know: What do you think? Are these changes sound? What do you like, and what do you dislike? If you dislike the overall essay: Do you think I at least know what I'm talking about, or do you feel I don't have enough skill with Legion and the general game to formulate reasonable changes?

Comments

  • azazer
    azazer Member Posts: 446
    edited December 2018
    Personally I think you're going about it in the wrong direction. I don't believe making his m1 stronger is the solution. while the healing action buff would be nice, the devs specifically reversed a doc buff to justify deep wound not being a healing action. If they did this they would have to not only rebuff the doc, but add a buff to Freddy for consistency.

    You've stated frenzy has no counter play. I don't know if your claims are hyperbolic but this is false. Simple situational awareness and mechanical prowess can make it hard on a killer to land let alone combo frenzy. On top of this, perks like sprint burst, and to situational degree lithe and balanced landing all can thwart frenzy, anti tracking perks, iron will to mute injured sounds, even no mither is strong against legion as the injured state is meaningless to frenzy and the absence of a blood trail is devistating when you don't have scratch marks to follow. 

    My counter proposal would be singular and simple. Once legion frenzy strikes a victim twice, their bleed out doesn't pause in chase.

    You said that tracking a survivor while not in chase to run down the timer is an exploit, but the legion Dev stream says that is wrong. Not only is it legitimate, they said that if it becomes common practice they'll quality of life it to how I suggested. (Sans the need for a second hit)

    This one change would give the power the lethality it needs, and by requiring the second hit gives the victim a speed burst, a killer stun, and keeps the 110 speed which should allow a victim plenty of time get distance hide and mend.

    It will also reduce the number of hits required to down them with frenzy and keep chase times in line with dev expectations.
  • No_Mither_No_Problem
    No_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476
    edited December 2018

    @azazer said:
    Personally I think you're going about it in the wrong direction. I don't believe making his m1 stronger is the solution. while the healing action buff would be nice, the devs specifically reversed a doc buff to justify deep wound not being a healing action. If they did this they would have to not only rebuff the doc, but add a buff to Freddy for consistency.

    You've stated frenzy has no counter play. I don't know if your claims are hyperbolic but this is false. Simple situational awareness and mechanical prowess can make it hard on a killer to land let alone combo frenzy. On top of this, perks like sprint burst, and to situational degree lithe and balanced landing all can thwart frenzy, anti tracking perks, iron will to mute injured sounds, even no mither is strong against legion as the injured state is meaningless to frenzy and the absence of a blood trail is devistating when you don't have scratch marks to follow. 

    My counter proposal would be singular and simple. Once legion frenzy strikes a victim twice, their bleed out doesn't pause in chase.

    You said that tracking a survivor while not in chase to run down the timer is an exploit, but the legion Dev stream says that is wrong. Not only is it legitimate, they said that if it becomes common practice they'll quality of life it to how I suggested. (Sans the need for a second hit)

    This one change would give the power the lethality it needs, and by requiring the second hit gives the victim a speed burst, a killer stun, and keeps the 110 speed which should allow a victim plenty of time get distance hide and mend.

    It will also reduce the number of hits required to down them with frenzy and keep chase times in line with dev expectations.

    The problem with your ideas is that it would make Legion far too easy, and you're misinterpreting my words. It's not that Feral Frenzy as a whole has no counterplay; it's that it has no counterplay in a chase. If Feral Frenzy was actually able to consistently and reliably down Survivors, then that would be extremely OP for how little skill using Frenzy in a chase actually requires. There'd be no reason NOT to Frenzy in a chase. Legion's power is too strong in the realm of chasing and too weak in the realm of applying pressure. By inverting this equation, we can properly balance Legion as well as make him fun and interesting to play against.

  • No_Mither_No_Problem
    No_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476

    @azazer said:
    Personally I think you're going about it in the wrong direction. I don't believe making his m1 stronger is the solution. while the healing action buff would be nice, the devs specifically reversed a doc buff to justify deep wound not being a healing action. If they did this they would have to not only rebuff the doc, but add a buff to Freddy for consistency.

    You've stated frenzy has no counter play. I don't know if your claims are hyperbolic but this is false. Simple situational awareness and mechanical prowess can make it hard on a killer to land let alone combo frenzy. On top of this, perks like sprint burst, and to situational degree lithe and balanced landing all can thwart frenzy, anti tracking perks, iron will to mute injured sounds, even no mither is strong against legion as the injured state is meaningless to frenzy and the absence of a blood trail is devistating when you don't have scratch marks to follow. 

    My counter proposal would be singular and simple. Once legion frenzy strikes a victim twice, their bleed out doesn't pause in chase.

    You said that tracking a survivor while not in chase to run down the timer is an exploit, but the legion Dev stream says that is wrong. Not only is it legitimate, they said that if it becomes common practice they'll quality of life it to how I suggested. (Sans the need for a second hit)

    This one change would give the power the lethality it needs, and by requiring the second hit gives the victim a speed burst, a killer stun, and keeps the 110 speed which should allow a victim plenty of time get distance hide and mend.

    It will also reduce the number of hits required to down them with frenzy and keep chase times in line with dev expectations.

    Also, just reading your comment, it sounds like you didn't actually read the second half of the OP. I talked plenty about what's weak about Feral Frenzy and it's close to what you call "counterplay."

  • azazer
    azazer Member Posts: 446
    If we agree that the perks and basic input skill are able to counter legion, how then does that not apply to the chase? 
  • Zarathos
    Zarathos Member Posts: 1,911
    So let me get this straight you want to make a killer who wins by attrtion as opposed to winning by getting fast downs and excellent play. That does not work in dbd. Their are two killers who were focused on this style of play doc, pig and freddy all are killers who are often at the bottom of tier lists because you can't stall in dbd. You have to act fast getting downs. Snowballing is the key to killer success stall is meaningless. 

    Ff does need more counterplay yes. But focus on that. My idea for nerfing and buffing ff is to make it so legion cannot see blood in ff as well as having pallet stuns reduce his gauge regardless of whether or not its in use. Make missed hits matter with legion by having a missed hit expend 1/4 of his power bar. Do not make mend anymore oppresive or time consuming then it is as with the green and purple knife add ons that action is frustrating to deal with.

    Buffs should be to make a deep wound survivour bleed out whilst in chase. But and this is important make it so it cannot bleed out past 30% whilst in legions tr. Finally I like your idea for improving his duration. Currently his duration does need a buff and your duration speed solution would go along way to helping that. 

    Final thoughts I do not want another m1 killer who gets a free hit and existence is only to stall untill they win via attrition. That gameplay is historically despised. We have enough m1 killers in the game. Power based killers like legion are more satisfying when using their power. Stop pushing doc and freddy killers stall doesent work you need to improve regression reduce gen time in order for this to work which will only push nurse, billy and other strong killers into an op state. 
  • No_Mither_No_Problem
    No_Mither_No_Problem Member Posts: 1,476
    edited December 2018

    @Zarathos said:
    So let me get this straight you want to make a killer who wins by attrtion as opposed to winning by getting fast downs and excellent play. That does not work in dbd. Their are two killers who were focused on this style of play doc, pig and freddy all are killers who are often at the bottom of tier lists because you can't stall in dbd. You have to act fast getting downs. Snowballing is the key to killer success stall is meaningless. 

    Ff does need more counterplay yes. But focus on that. My idea for nerfing and buffing ff is to make it so legion cannot see blood in ff as well as having pallet stuns reduce his gauge regardless of whether or not its in use. Make missed hits matter with legion by having a missed hit expend 1/4 of his power bar. Do not make mend anymore oppresive or time consuming then it is as with the green and purple knife add ons that action is frustrating to deal with.

    Buffs should be to make a deep wound survivour bleed out whilst in chase. But and this is important make it so it cannot bleed out past 30% whilst in legions tr. Finally I like your idea for improving his duration. Currently his duration does need a buff and your duration speed solution would go along way to helping that. 

    Final thoughts I do not want another m1 killer who gets a free hit and existence is only to stall untill they win via attrition. That gameplay is historically despised. We have enough m1 killers in the game. Power based killers like legion are more satisfying when using their power. Stop pushing doc and freddy killers stall doesent work you need to improve regression reduce gen time in order for this to work which will only push nurse, billy and other strong killers into an op state. 

    So, I can't exactly understand what you're saying, but I'll focus on your main idea that Legion as a stall killer is bad because of two supposed reasons:

    1. Doc, Pig, and Freddy are stall Killers and they suck.
    2. Stall Killers are not fun to play against because they stall.

    For your first point, you are egregiously false on several fronts. Firstly, Doctor is by no means a stall Killer. Madness 3 is not a stall ability just because it stops one or two Survivors from working on gens for 5 seconds. The purpose of Madness 3 is to make finding Survivors easier, as is with the rest of Carter's Spark when outside of a chase.

    Secondly, anyone who says Pig is low tier does not now how the game works. She is the uncontested best stall Killer in the game because her traps give Survivors a full-on second objective. While a large portion of her stall is based on RNG, it will nevertheless create pressure and excellently slow the game down. Also, her power can be used at loops to do one of two things: Mindgame with a dash and get a free hit, or force the Survivor away from the loop, allowing you to not be looped anymore. Pig is, at the VERY least, mid tier, and that is an objective truth.

    Finally, Freddy is low tier not because he's a stall Killer, but because it's too easy to make his power not stall, which, with the way it's designed, that fault is not because his stall is bad—it's because the devs are clowns who don't know how to balance their game. Some of the simplest buffs would make Freddy the best stall Killer in the game—no Self Care wake up and no waking up during the Transition, just to suggest even the slightest thing. Not only that, but the mob mentality of "you have to tunnel with Freddy" is worse for him than many of the weaknesses with his power. I can say from experience: Playing Freddy as a hit-and-run instead of a tunneler will DRAMATICALLY improve his ability to slow the game down since he'll have more than one Survivor asleep at a time—which is something that concerns your second point: These Killers being unfun to play against.

    Doc is unfun to play against because his power will tell you exactly where Survivors are without any effort. Not only that, but timing a shock well will leave you unable to defend yourself in a chase for a moderate length of time, since you cannot vault, drop pallets, or use Dead Hard for that duration. That's why he's not fun to fight, not because he's a staller.

    Pigs who play well are never unfun to play against. They know perfectly well how to outplay you, and having a second objective with a much higher urgency than generators is very exhilarating as a Survivor—at least, in my opinion. Idiot Pig players who tunnel the guy with the RBT on and think crouching is stealthy aren't fun to fight, but they're idiots. They don't know how to play the Pig. People who do are terrifying, and I love it.

    Freddy players, as I've said before, have been brainwashed into thinking Freddy is the tunneling machine. That's why isn't fun to play against. I'll just leave it at that.

    In short: All the stall Killers are not fun to play against for reasons that have nothing to do with their stalling.

    All this said, back to Legion. Legion is unfun to play against because he cannot apply pressure, and that forces him to make low-brow moves. He'll have to constantly keep Survivors in Deep Wound so he can take the time to break pallets, but because Deep Wound doesn't give him that time, he's just boned either way, so the only way for him to win chases is either cheese Deep Wound or tunnel with Feral Frenzy—something that is completely unfun for everyone.

    If we were to nerf these and then buff other areas of Legion that give him power in slower, less direct ways that are more powerful in the end, people who know how to be a good player will dive on this new method of winning if they play Legion. The Legion I see is perfectly capable of being avoided, of being countered, and of being looped, but by giving him more presence both in and out of Feral Frenzy, he can slow the game down to a point where enough pallets are broken that he can't be looped as much, and he has more presence. You don't even need to break ALL the pallets. You just need to break enough. And hell, who's to stop you from getting an easy M1 before then?

    I believe that the Legion I have in mind requires good strategy and planning: deciding whether it'd be better to stall or to break pallets or to chase, figuring out where the Survivors need to be for him to plan his next move, deciding if he should combo his Frenzy to slow the game or if he's free to finish off the guy he just hit—it's a fair deal of quick decision making and planning ahead. I firmly believe that there are enough ins and outs to Legion's kit that give him additional skill barriers that raise his skill ceiling further than just spamming Feral Frenzy in a chase. Sure, he's not the hardest, but he's most certainly not a pickup-and-master Killer. He's a learn-and-master Killer. So i we were to buff these strategic bits of him in the way I imagine, I believe his pressure and presence will be at a moderate level, and his pallet-forcing capabilities will be small enough that should he genuinely reach the point where he can M1 all the time, then that Legion played very well and the Survivors have nobody but themselves to blame.

  • Tru3Lemon
    Tru3Lemon Member Posts: 1,358

    the only solution of the legion its hes power and my idea its simple
    1.- make hes power similar than the spirit so he needs to use hes power when hes full on frenzy the reason its the spam and hit to get them down
    2.- if the 1 goes ok buff hes cooldown of hes power simple
    3.-make that using frenzy hitting a survivor you get less time probably like the old borrow time if the survivor its not in a chase
    4.-make it so he can see the aura of the survivor mending now this is only if its in hes terror radious

    those are my ideas maybe its bad or good i dont know

  • ChesterTheMolester
    ChesterTheMolester Member Posts: 2,771
    Ardini said:

    My students make it fun just with their silly questions. :) Sometimes we even resort to this: https://edubirdie.com/annotated-bibliography-writing-service but I still managed to teach them something. Thanks!

    I haven't clicked the link but your post sounds like some cult type of #########.

    But that aside, i fully agree with @No_Mither_No_Problem here, all of them sound like reasonable buffs while enabling counterplay.
  • Zarathos
    Zarathos Member Posts: 1,911

    @No_Mither_No_Problem said:

    @Zarathos said:
    So let me get this straight you want to make a killer who wins by attrtion as opposed to winning by getting fast downs and excellent play. That does not work in dbd. Their are two killers who were focused on this style of play doc, pig and freddy all are killers who are often at the bottom of tier lists because you can't stall in dbd. You have to act fast getting downs. Snowballing is the key to killer success stall is meaningless. 

    Ff does need more counterplay yes. But focus on that. My idea for nerfing and buffing ff is to make it so legion cannot see blood in ff as well as having pallet stuns reduce his gauge regardless of whether or not its in use. Make missed hits matter with legion by having a missed hit expend 1/4 of his power bar. Do not make mend anymore oppresive or time consuming then it is as with the green and purple knife add ons that action is frustrating to deal with.

    Buffs should be to make a deep wound survivour bleed out whilst in chase. But and this is important make it so it cannot bleed out past 30% whilst in legions tr. Finally I like your idea for improving his duration. Currently his duration does need a buff and your duration speed solution would go along way to helping that. 

    Final thoughts I do not want another m1 killer who gets a free hit and existence is only to stall untill they win via attrition. That gameplay is historically despised. We have enough m1 killers in the game. Power based killers like legion are more satisfying when using their power. Stop pushing doc and freddy killers stall doesent work you need to improve regression reduce gen time in order for this to work which will only push nurse, billy and other strong killers into an op state. 

    So, I can't exactly understand what you're saying, but I'll focus on your main idea that Legion as a stall killer is bad because of two supposed reasons:

    1. Doc, Pig, and Freddy are stall Killers and they suck.
    2. Stall Killers are not fun to play against because they stall.

    For your first point, you are egregiously false on several fronts. Firstly, Doctor is by no means a stall Killer. Madness 3 is not a stall ability just because it stops one or two Survivors from working on gens for 5 seconds. The purpose of Madness 3 is to make finding Survivors easier, as is with the rest of Carter's Spark when outside of a chase.

    Secondly, anyone who says Pig is low tier does not now how the game works. She is the uncontested best stall Killer in the game because her traps give Survivors a full-on second objective. While a large portion of her stall is based on RNG, it will nevertheless create pressure and excellently slow the game down. Also, her power can be used at loops to do one of two things: Mindgame with a dash and get a free hit, or force the Survivor away from the loop, allowing you to not be looped anymore. Pig is, at the VERY least, mid tier, and that is an objective truth.

    Finally, Freddy is low tier not because he's a stall Killer, but because it's too easy to make his power not stall, which, with the way it's designed, that fault is not because his stall is bad—it's because the devs are clowns who don't know how to balance their game. Some of the simplest buffs would make Freddy the best stall Killer in the game—no Self Care wake up and no waking up during the Transition, just to suggest even the slightest thing. Not only that, but the mob mentality of "you have to tunnel with Freddy" is worse for him than many of the weaknesses with his power. I can say from experience: Playing Freddy as a hit-and-run instead of a tunneler will DRAMATICALLY improve his ability to slow the game down since he'll have more than one Survivor asleep at a time—which is something that concerns your second point: These Killers being unfun to play against.

    Doc is unfun to play against because his power will tell you exactly where Survivors are without any effort. Not only that, but timing a shock well will leave you unable to defend yourself in a chase for a moderate length of time, since you cannot vault, drop pallets, or use Dead Hard for that duration. That's why he's not fun to fight, not because he's a staller.

    Pigs who play well are never unfun to play against. They know perfectly well how to outplay you, and having a second objective with a much higher urgency than generators is very exhilarating as a Survivor—at least, in my opinion. Idiot Pig players who tunnel the guy with the RBT on and think crouching is stealthy aren't fun to fight, but they're idiots. They don't know how to play the Pig. People who do are terrifying, and I love it.

    Freddy players, as I've said before, have been brainwashed into thinking Freddy is the tunneling machine. That's why isn't fun to play against. I'll just leave it at that.

    In short: All the stall Killers are not fun to play against for reasons that have nothing to do with their stalling.

    All this said, back to Legion. Legion is unfun to play against because he cannot apply pressure, and that forces him to make low-brow moves. He'll have to constantly keep Survivors in Deep Wound so he can take the time to break pallets, but because Deep Wound doesn't give him that time, he's just boned either way, so the only way for him to win chases is either cheese Deep Wound or tunnel with Feral Frenzy—something that is completely unfun for everyone.

    If we were to nerf these and then buff other areas of Legion that give him power in slower, less direct ways that are more powerful in the end, people who know how to be a good player will dive on this new method of winning if they play Legion. The Legion I see is perfectly capable of being avoided, of being countered, and of being looped, but by giving him more presence both in and out of Feral Frenzy, he can slow the game down to a point where enough pallets are broken that he can't be looped as much, and he has more presence. You don't even need to break ALL the pallets. You just need to break enough. And hell, who's to stop you from getting an easy M1 before then?

    I believe that the Legion I have in mind requires good strategy and planning: deciding whether it'd be better to stall or to break pallets or to chase, figuring out where the Survivors need to be for him to plan his next move, deciding if he should combo his Frenzy to slow the game or if he's free to finish off the guy he just hit—it's a fair deal of quick decision making and planning ahead. I firmly believe that there are enough ins and outs to Legion's kit that give him additional skill barriers that raise his skill ceiling further than just spamming Feral Frenzy in a chase. Sure, he's not the hardest, but he's most certainly not a pickup-and-master Killer. He's a learn-and-master Killer. So i we were to buff these strategic bits of him in the way I imagine, I believe his pressure and presence will be at a moderate level, and his pallet-forcing capabilities will be small enough that should he genuinely reach the point where he can M1 all the time, then that Legion played very well and the Survivors have nobody but themselves to blame.

    My point was none of these killers worked because we have yet to see a successful top tier stall killer. No one even scratches the top tiers first doc. You might say docs core power is finding people that true but his shock literally brings no lethality minus a very conditional/unreliable stun and screaming survivours. His shock can function well whilst slugging and forcing survivours off gens. Also hostage doc is basically a doc who shocks continously and sets up 3 gen strats. So yes he is a stall killer.

    Pigs traps being rng is massively important the extra objective argument falls apart when you observe that the best killers have virtually no stall but have the best anti loop/lethality or mobility.

    Freddy i agree maintenace of dream state is his problem. Spreading out dmg dosent always work out due to his lack of mobility and large maps and even in the dream state survivours are hard to ambush on a large amount of maps. Freddys ability to ambush is limited by his tr compare with myers who has that alongside a tier 3 ambush pptential.

    I get the argument that freddy shouldnt just tunnel but currently he is not mobile enough and is sorely lack in antiloop if survivours choose to just hug the pallet. Making him a very weak killer. Stall isn't enough for a killer anti loop and lethality need to be integrated to make them viable.

    Legions problem is chaining hits as plenty of survivours just split up to deny him multiple hits and prevent him from spreading out his damge. His inability to play loops well at 4.4 ms makes loops unplayable. He needs his lethality to amplify attrtion gameplay does not work in dbd gens get done to fast for this strategy to work you need downs and hooks to stall the game effectively.

This discussion has been closed.