General Discussions
General Discussions
Nerfed Boons = DH DS BT UB
Killers always complain about playing against the same 4 perks then they complain when we start using boons. Survivors aren’t gonna play handicap perks so the devs can either release new perks that are strong or buff old perks either way.
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In other words, to stop people from using perks like dead hard, devs need to release perk stronger then dead hard or buff old perk to be stronger then dead hard.
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That's because the current meta for both sides is so strong that any perk that challenges it is crazy strong.
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Dead hard isn’t that strong most dead hards extend a chase by all of 3 seconds
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That's not how you balance a game. Adding stronger and stronger anything is called power creep and ends up ruining everything you need to keep adding stronger and stronger everything to keep up. If something is too strong, you reduce that strength.
Fighting fire with fire often enough causes a bigger fire.
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Fun fact, boons don't even fix the issue of survivors running the same few perks, because only one player needs to bring them. You'll end up with 3 survivors running the old meta and one survivor who subs out one of those perks for CoH.
I'd rather go back to all 4 survivors running DH/BT/UB/IW-or-DS than just 3/4 and still be able to use a hit-and-run playstyle. Or be able to win a 3-gen.
In any case, adding to the meta on either side does mean power creep, which generally isn't a good thing. The meta is meta for a reason and to challenge it, a perk has to be better than the current best of the game. All meta survivor perks are based around 'the killer can't do this to me anymore', with the exception of maybe Dead Hard (which is 'I can loop longer and more aggressively.') So at this stage, to be meta, a survivor perk has to be a perk that cuts down killers' options. Is it any wonder that killers are wary of this?
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I think you meant by 3 "gens".
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That's not true. Dead Hard is probably the second or third worst exhaustion perk if you don't know how to use it, but if you do, it's by far the strongest. You don't use it to dodge a hit in the middle of nowhere, you use it to extend a loop and reach a window or pallet you wouldn't have been able to make otherwise. Done right, you buy yourself however much time you have at the next tile you make it to, which can be 30 seconds, a minute, etc.
It's not the raw distance that makes DH powerful, it's the fact that it can be used on command. No other exhaustion perk works that way.
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This is called power creep and it's usually very bad. There are two approaches to balancing when new features/rules are added to games usually. You nerf the top strategies/make them weaker so that they lose strength and if they are very very strong baseline you can add new stuff in that doesn't 'break' the game. The opposite side is you add new things that might be too weak compared to the current meta/add in things that are considerably stronger. The problem with the former path is that it can be very boring/not feel fun to see your favorite strategy get nerfed. The problem with two is that while its fun it is far more volatile/introduces really dumb things. Boon totems fall for sure in the latter one. Can you imagine if we had hex totems that were on boon totem level? "While this hex stands even walking causes scratch marks", "While this hex stands survivor healing is reduced by 100%", etc. Would it be fun? Sure, but it's also extremely extremely strong/broken.
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I honestly don’t even think perks have a determination on how games play out. Holding W as a survivor seems to be the meta now regardless of the same perks survivors run. I could run no perks as an experienced survivor and hold W on 75% of these maps and the majority of killers won’t be able to do anything…
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I don't think you understand how to use deadhard if it only extends your chase by 3 seconds. Therefor you have no say on this topic :D
On topic though. Sure boons are strong when applied properly. But my main issue with it is that it can be re-booned infinetely. The perk itself can stay, but once snuffed... you should find another totem to bless. and thus up to 5x max.
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Survivor ! Don’t use meta perk ! Use no mither
sweaty … this is simple …. Survivor meta perks exist for counter killer meta perk.
so if you want to survivor stop use meta perk and you keep using your meta perk, that’s an 4K every match
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I don't think killers want boons to be nerfed as much as they want a better way to deal with it like letting them break the totem would be a good start.
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Releasing busted Perks to fix the meta isn't how you balance a game
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Or change the way the games feels/plays so that a deadhard isnt a necessity
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How is dead hard a necessity exactly?
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How is dead hard necessity ?
Is getting one get out of jail free card when you mess up a mindgame or don't reach another loop a necessity ?
Should Coup De Gratze be buffed so that it's a 40s cooldown perk and killer can activate it whenever so they also get rewarded for messing up ?
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Are we going to start ignoring the that only way a survivor's game is classified as a win is if THEY get out, not anyone else? Like, it physically does not matter if anyone else makes it out if they're not the ones to be out?
Meaning that those chases are completely detrimental to the survivor?
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Yeah and survivors are supposed to work together. Whenever I see someone is on their death hook and I'm not, I do my best to find them asap, get in killers way even if it means to get downed for them just so we as a team don't lose one person.
That's what survivors are supposed to do, even in solo que, work together and have good understanding of the high level play so you aren't supposed to need dead hard if you have intelligent teammates.
Besides, the MMR system is terrible at figuring out skillful gameplay so I wouldn't be relying on this dev established win condition too much. But also if you're a good survivor, dead hard won't save you anyway if you can't last in chase for decent amount of time without it.
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Current boons are
DH DS BT UB
DH DS BT UB
DH DS BT UB
DH DS Coh UB
all 4 survivors don't run boons especially in coordinated squads who all use meta
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if the survivor is trash yes, if the survivor using is good will extend it potentially for 30 seconds 1 min depending on the loop you can reach.
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NOoooooo! They got you too!! These forums , everyone is in jail. Or work release. Lol, hope all is well my friend!!
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We will surely be back!
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Or they just can nerf current meta
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Do you think the next Boon will just be another version of DS or Dead Hard?
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I'm fine with this. The sedentary meta was one of the positives about this game, it kept power creep at bay. With boons and the artist it seems like we're in it now.
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Survivor dont need perk to dominate a killer that just how strong survivor are. Ofc that only because survivor are able to 1v1 a killer in a 4v1 game if they could not 1v1 a killer then the powerrole would be in the killer favor
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No I mean the in the chapter after this one. I personally expect them to make a Boon where a Survivor's exhaustion will tick down while running so long as its in the Boon radius.
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Prob DS but you can just kill the killer no ######### given
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Yup Never understand why killers complain so much about it. When i play killer i Just bait it out then attack.
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The Jake who uses it to Dead Hard into a wall was never the issue.
The issue has always been good players using it to extend chases in a meta where Killers are already pressed for time.
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Yeah killers want Boons nerfed.
If they nerf them, i'll get back on DS, or Iron Will.
Good luck.
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How do you feel about nerfing all meta perks and then looking at base-game balance?
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If I say my tires are flat, replacing one with a dinner plate does not improve the situation. Adding a perk potentially stronger than the too-good-to-pass-up meta perks does not mean those perks are any less problematic.
That said, yes, DH and DS can be somewhat frustrating to play against. BT is fine. Unbreakable is...usually fine. However, all of them can be worked around. PTS and Spinechill scare me more at times.
The major issue is that, on some killers, CoH is nearly impossible to deal with against a team that know how to abuse it. Setting one up in a spot where it projects through walls and a floor makes it nearly impossible to snuff without wasting far too much time. A team practically healing to full between me getting DSed and catching up is patently ridiculous.
At the very least, it should not stack with other healing effects as aggressively as it currently does and snuffing it should apply a cooldown to erecting another boon.
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Nerf all perks except BT and DS and watch how people change meta.
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I enjoy how there has to be an exception to some survivor perks.
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Or nerf the four perks you originally mentioned. People complain about those perks because they are over powered, not because they want even more overpowered perks.
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I wouldn’t be surprised one bit.
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and? killers have perks that cut off survivor options too. Sounds fair.
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if you didn’t have ruin/pop/tink BET you won’t kill any survivors. What kind of logic is that lmao
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i'd be happy to return to that, boons just literary kill every other killer playstyle and only allow you to tunnel if you want to win
healing mid chase is not funny at all either, not even nurse can compete with these builds, the only thing you can do vs boons is play plague, else you won't see anyone and everyone will heal infront of your face while you cooldown from an attack and destroy a pallet
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Meta killer perks are focused on game slowdown. It's its own set of problems, but typically it's killer powers that cut off survivor options more than killer perks.
Cutting off killer options is bad for everyone because it forces everyone to play the same way at the highest echelons of the game, and that way tends to be scummy because it's so pressured by everything else that won't work.
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If Dead Hard cost you 3 gens, I would highly question your ability or lack there of as killer.
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So nothing changes
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Fun fact: you can't.
Because most 'meta' survivor perks are actually really bad. They're just band-aid solutions for flaws in the core mechanisms of the game.
If tunnelling and slugging weren't possible strategies, DS and UB would have a 0% pickrate because they would never fire. Any killer that avoids these strats can see this in their own games.
Probably the best way to shift the meta on both sides of the aisle at this point is to modify these perks to be baseline.
DS: no longer works after 5th gen is done, but now baseline.
UB: Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator once fully recovered to perform a 15 second action to get back up.
Hex: Ruin: Any gen left unattended for 10 seconds starts to regress at 1 charge per 2 seconds.
Pop goes the weasel: Kicking a gen sets it back 5% by default.
That might slow the game down a bit and free some perk slots.
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We can totally nerf DH and IW. 2 free slots for new perks
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You could nerf DH, sure. But that'd just kick it down to uselessness, and give its place up to SB.
IW I'm not sure what you could do about. Fixing sound bugs I suppose.
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There's 2 directions you can go in.
You can buff the ######### out of all the crap perks until they're so broken that people use them, and you can add increasingly ridiculous perks like boons to try to one-up the meta perks. That's how you get power creep and get an entire fanbase frustrated at the game, because you're either only seeing the meta stuff which is boring, or you only see the new stuff because it's flat out broken. (And especially in this community you'll see a hoarde of people who like broken stuff just pretending they're balanced.)
The other direction you can go, and what I'd prefer, is to actually nerf the meta perks. Not just Dead Hard, Boons, BT and Iron Will that are in literally every game, but on the killer side too, things like Ruin, Undying, Corrupt and Tinkerer that are seriously overused. Make them less desirable to have every single match and we might actually see some other stuff get used now and then.
It's a fairly even tradeoff too. Survivors lose strength in perks that essentially give extra health states and extend chases drastically, and the killer loses strength in perks that stall out the game. Both sides lose stalling, but due to the other side using less, both NEED less.
The issue is BHVR never touch anything outside of major reworks. They never go "hey how about we knock a second or two off BT's protection and see how it goes" or "what happens if we lower the duration of corrupt by 30 seconds?" and see if the perks get used less. They go "ok well that perk's used too much, gotta entirely rewrite it from the ground up with a completely different niche, then if that's not balanced we'll just rework it in another four years."
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sb is better than deadhard
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I wouldn't doubt it....it seems the Devs idea of "Changing the Meta" is to make the most broken perk idea ever and put multiple perk within a single perk. Then let's make it so all Boon Perks can stack onto a single totem.....then lets make it so survivors can relight them as many times as they want, so what if its exactly like the original Undying on steroids. Oh wait lets make it so Boons can overpower Hexs and nerf the only defense Perk Killers have so that they never know if someone is messing with thier Hexs. Oh and lets make it also killers cant break Totems because how will that be fair to Survivors.
I can see Boons changing the Meta especially if they keep making them stack everyone of them on the same totem and just keep shoving different perks together to make these Boons.
Personally let them if the Devs think that's ok let them ruin the balance even more I'll keep playing the game until the servers shut down. I have no issues with survivors using Boons or the Boons themselves, just how they were implemented.
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Then it's not used correctly...
Dead Hard can make your chase way longer if used right. Depends on loop around, map, killer etc.
your 3 seconds is just BS.
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