SBMM: Is There Any Way To Reconcile The Fun Of High MMR Players With Fairness For Everyone Else?
Title is a bit clumsy, but you get my point.
The crux of the SBMM debate essentially boils down to the following:
Before the change, high MMR people would face a much wider variety of opponents, most of them much less skilled. It's what made those amazing 50-100 wins in a row 'streak' videos possible. This allowed them to engage in a lot more meme games and to play around with different builds while still being able to do well - albeit at the expense of lower MMR folks.
Now they face generally more skilled opponents, resulting in high MMR matches being 'sweaty' and a lot more restrictive (as is the nature of high MMR play). It also makes balance issues far more apparent and they are more likely to encounter hackers.
It's also far less easy to smurf, as 'deranking' was a pretty quick and easy process but 'shedding MMR' takes a lot longer.
This all understandably leads to burnout and frustration.
However, this also means that those lower MMR folks get significantly more fair matches, as they aren't constantly being thrown to the wolves.
This is something of a problem. I'm not sure what the solution is, aside from balancing and reworking problematic aspects of the game.
Can you think of a way to make the game more enjoyable at high MMR while keeping the benefits of SBMM (fairer matches for new/intermediate players)?
Comments
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If the argument above against the MMR is there are less instances of high skill players smurfing and trouncing low skill players then that’s not much of an argument. It’s not exactly an issue that a streamer has trouble winning 100 games in a row because they’re facing more competent players since they win so often. If the only way someone can enjoy a game is stomping on newbies then that’s a “them” problem.
Nor is it a problem if a player who uses a terrible build loses matches against people who are playing just as well with better builds. There’s nothing preventing you from running whatever build you want, but there’s also no reason you should expect to not lose and have your MMR go down when you use bad loadouts or no loadouts, etc.
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I agree.
The problem is that the forums are basically chock-a-bloc with disgruntled 3000+ hour folks who are annoyed at the changes because it means they have to play sweaty or lose.
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I don't think there is really a way to make MMR feel better for people at the top. I understand why these veterans are upset, but at the same time, I feel like there's this lack of understanding that they don't need to win all the time.
MMR isn't really the problem so much as it's just highlighting the already existing problems with how the game is balanced.
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If I am correct current MMR tries to give you opponents that have a very similar MMR number to yours. This results in the effects you just described.
What I would do is create 3 brackets:
[1] [2] [3]
New players or low mmr players will be in bracket 1, medium in 2 and high in 3.
Bracket 1 players can vs bracket 1-2 players, 2 can vs 1-3, and bracket 3 can vs 2-3 players. MMR will randomly pick any players from the brackets which means players at peak of 3 could potentially vs low bracket 2 players.
This could maybe lead to a compromise between,, same skill and fun '' matches.
(if needed 5 brackets can be created but with the same idea. Just make sure that the tolerance for getting players is high enough)
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"Can you think of a way to make the game more enjoyable at high MMR while keeping the benefits of SBMM (fairer matches for new/intermediate players)?"
Nope, I can't.
Removing it entirely is the best option.
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But won't that be making things more fun for high MMR players at the expense of everyone else?
I'm not sure how that's the 'best' option for the game as a whole.
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It doesn't seem like a lot of people are enjoying the accurate MMR experience anyway, at least someone would be happy then?
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I'm enjoying it.
Quite a few of the other newer/intermediate players seem to be enjoying it.
The people who aren't enjoying it are generally the multi-thousand hour veteran players who do seem to make up a disproportionately large amount of forum posters (I did a thread surveying hours played a bit back).
I understand that no longer getting tons of lowbies means that games are sweatier at the high end, but...honestly, that's how it should be. That's what high MMR is like. It's no fun when 2/3 of your matches as a 20 hour newbie is against people who are so far above you in skill and experience that you can't even really learn anything from those stomps.
I'd actually love to see an in-game poll for this, as Steam numbers are looking pretty damn solid (barring the standard autumn 'dip').
The major issue, to my mind, is on the survivor end of things. The system needs to take into account more than just a binary died/escaped.
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No, no, I think that still feels accurate, you're just beholden to time of day more than how matchmaking works.
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What feels accurate?
Times of day definitely factor in. When I play a few games before work, I generally get longer queue times and a bit more variance - but the games still feel 'fair' for the most part.
When I play at peak time, aside from the occasional 'wut' matchup (which I suspect is due to someone dodging a lobby) it's both instant and pretty even.
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Since the algorithm to determine MMR is a wash, high mmr as a concept is meaningless anyway.
A 100 hour killer is still going to be matched against 3k hour survivors.
That was the case with the old system and nothings changed. Now you just get rewarded even more for being selfish and taking as few risks as possible which is the wrong attitude to promote.
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What?
It's definitely changed. I can see the difference very clearly myself.
Most of my games are against people of a similar experience level on average. Sometimes I'll lose, sometimes I'll win - but there's seldom a game where I go 'well, I had no chance' or 'well, they had no chance'. Before MMR, I could be matched against almost complete newbies or insanely skilled SWFs with thousands of hours between them. Those games were never fun.
I've also seen a significant improvement over the past month. Either the system has been refined, or people have found their correct MMR positions and everything has stabilized.
Now, there are still some odd moments and matchups - I'm guessing that lobby dodges result in parameters being widened to find a new killer ASAP, that sometimes the system is down for maintenance/tweaking and that there are situations where people at both the very high end and very low end wait in a queue for ages and get bizarro teams - but these are a pretty rare occurrence.
For the most part, my match quality has been drastically increased.
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The whole 20 hour newbie going against comically lopsided matches that don't teach anything.
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Ah, yeah. That's pretty much the core of what I'm saying.
And it's not even complete newbies. I know that at 200ish hours of killer experience, I can punch my weight against 400-600 hour survivors soloing - but still get rolled over by 1000 hour SWF groups. Especially on certain killer/map combinations (that's...another discussion).
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There are ways to tweak it. Will they? Who can say. There are big problems with MMR for skilled veterans on both the survivor and killer side.
Survivor queue times have been atrocious for me the last couple weeks, and the solo experience has been miserable. I'm not being consistently matched with players anywhere near my skill/experience level. I'm often seeing teammates with 100 or fewer hours in my lobbies who go down instantly to killers that I can run for multiple minutes. I understand that the average MMR might work, but they aren't winnable games due to survivors essentially throwing via inexperience/not knowing how to play. It's not fun. If I play in a 4 man, we pretty much 4 escape every game, wait nearly 10 minutes in between games, and get put on servers in different regions than our own. There aren't that many good killers in the queue.
On killer, kind of the same thing. The games still aren't really challenging for me 90% of the time. It's just BNP/medkits and map offerings, but the survivors themselves aren't any better. Still easy 4ks for the most part. Every now and then I get actual good players, but MMR isn't accounting for actual skill. It's just going off of escapes/kills, and that's often a measure of who can bring the most broken items/perks/map offerings. Issue being, if you're actually good at the game, those things don't matter when the other side isn't that good.
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Yeah. Unfairness. RNG. "Catchup mechanics". "Power Items". Things that give an edge not because of the skill needed to use something (outside of the skill needed to actually successfully use it), but simply because you have it, and used it successfully.
Comp players want everything to be about skill, because that's "fair". If you're the most skillfull, you'll always win, whatever winning means (in this case likely getting a 4K, or being able to loop the Killer for 5 gens). Same map layouts, same pallet spawns, etc.
They hate items or abilities that give players a "freebie" they feel is "undeserved".
As long as players care about "fairness", it's only fair that you're stuck with players of your own skill level.
If you hated keys because "they gave free escapes" (rather than the ######### and uninvolved manner in which they did so), you shouldn't be complaining about MMR.
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No. Skill is part of getting to high MMR but an extremely ruthless playstyle and equipping yourself with every possible advantage before the match starts are the other core components.
People have said as much they like the occasional challenge but would prefer to have more of their games be 4k/4e against urban evasion squads or wraiths with 2 perks and 20 hours, as offered in the good old days.
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Uhhh, no?
Matchmaking had its problems occasionally, but you didn't see people complaining that every single one of their games has been sweaty and miserable. Unlucky players did get some weird streaks, but never 100% of their games as a whole.
That seems to be the case now.
There are COUNTLESS, and I mean COUNTLESS, things in DBD that should have been left untouched.
Matchmaking is one of them.
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If you went back to the era where I first started - it wasn't just unlucky streaks.
Nearly every one of my games was against people far more experienced and skilled than I was, to the extent that I really couldn't do much. I came to the forums and asked about this, and was told 'that's just the game', 'queue times for high ranked survivors are too long so we removed killer matchmaking protections' etc. Not to mention the endless, endless smurfs - people at yellow/brown ranks with full meta perks, 1400 hours played in a SWF together. Multiple times in a row.
This is why you can't really do crazy 100 win streaks anymore. Those streaks were you being matched against people much less skilled than you for the most part.
Now...it's different. I get the odd weird matchup, but by and large I'm playing against people around my hours played and similar skill.
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"Before MMR, I could be matched against almost complete newbies or insanely skilled SWFs with thousands of hours between them. Those games were never fun." That's exactly my experience with MMR. Every match feels like a "will I stomp or be stomped" gamble. I still win most of my games but it doesn't feel like it's because I go against equally skilled players. Every team feels like there's a weak link with <500 hours who I can exploit to win.
The old system wasn't actually that bad. People like to say that being rank 1 didn't mean that much, but the emblem system at least felt more detailed than the "unga bunga kill escape" that we have now. Everything it needed was to never match people who were 4 ranks away from you (so rank 1s would never go against people under rank 5 for example) no matter how long the queues were, and maybe don't let people who are also 4 ranks away SWF.
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Then you are easily one of the most unlucky players I've ever met.
However, that is all your situation is about...bad luck.
I first started playing DBD in 2018, and the matchmaking never game me such unfair games at the very start.
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Then that'll even out in time. It could be a matter of them going on a winning streak (the omnipresent 'hides all game' survivor) that then runs into you after their MMR inflates.
And sure, you get the occasional bad matchup.
It's nowhere near as bad as it was before. It was fine for people with high MMR, but not for everyone else. Again, I'd have to dig up the old screenshots I took of the postgame match screens - nasty TTV premade after nasty TTV premade all day.
There was a period where everyone was a lot less experienced, sure. That wasn't the case when I started.
It could also be that this was before BHVR removed killer matchmaking protections.
But let's take Otz (and a few other ultra high-end streamers) as an example. Pre MMR, he was able to do his 'streaks' with some regularity. It wasn't unusual for him to get 30-40 wins consecutively without too much difficulty using no addons on some very weak killers. A great deal of those games were absolute stomps.
Now? He's struggling to get past 10-20 on Pinhead. Pinhead isn't strong, but he's way stronger than pre-rework Trapper.
To me, that clearly demonstrates that MMR is putting him up against more consistently experienced survivors. Sure, there's the occasional weird match - but there's a massive difference.
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"Then that'll even out in time" except the system has been out for 2 months. It's funny because matches when it released were actually mostly fine, and I was praising the system, but it started getting worse and worse, and almost every killer player that I know is insanely stressed with the game. And you know what's more funny? The first matches were probably cool because MMR took the results from the matches with the Emblem System.
It's not really a matter of "you shouldn't win all the time". I'm actually winning WAY more than I was when the system first released (my kill rate on November rn is sitting at ~3,3, while on October it was less than 3). It's a matter of having actually fair matches where both sides have a chance of winning, and that's definitely not the experience I'm having. I recommend you have a look at the "x more minutes of streamers suffering with SBMM" by Choy on Youtube.
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I can spend 400K and not get any thing worth using. I cant use a flashlight. The matches where survivors are trying to make money are quite fair I think. Broke survivors need money to buy that stuff. You can't buy blood points (thank goodness)
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Yes.
And from where I'm standing, it has evened out quite a bit.
My match quality is better than it was a month ago, and tons better than it was under the ranks system.
Yeah the grind is real...but not really an MMR thing :).
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The issue is that as higher-skilled players get burnt out (which I think we can agree that high-ranked Killers will be burnt out first), less skilled players get thrown to the higher-skilled Survivors because there aren't enough high-skilled Killers....that's the exact same system that we had before.
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Ideally, people will come up to replace them.
Again, I don't think the right way to do this is just to give high MMR folks carte blanche to buttstomp lesser skilled folks constantly. As much fun as they were, those '100 game streak' videos might have to be a thing of the past, for the good of the future.
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Ideally, sure.
But those people have been playing for thousands of hours. They have experience and talent. You can't just replicate that overnight.
Realistically, you might replace half of them. 83% of the game's players have never made it past Silver I (Rank 10) on Survivor. Less than 10 PERCENT have ever made it to Silver I (Rank 10) on Killer.
If something isn't done about the high-ranked situation, there won't be a point to MMR at all. It will literally be the same system.
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I don't think it will. While it would be a pity to lose you veterans (you particularly strike me as a decent bloke), if we were to go back to the misery that ranks were for me, I'd probably have to leave. I just can't go back to the stomps, the smurfs and just being miserable struggling to do anything in more than half my games because killers don't have matchmaking protections and even Fog Whisperers are deranking to stomp (which happened under the old system).
And I'm really getting into this game now.
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Well, I understand that, and that's probably why BHVR hasn't reverted it.
You lot are the future of the game, and it really only matters if you guys are having fun. If you manage to stick around for as long as some of us have, you'll see it too.
I'm simply seeing a disastrous possibility ahead of us. If we do not address the issues at high MMR, a trickle-down effect will start that will affect all of us.
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There are ways for make the people at the top feel better: nerfing or removing some survivor items or addons and nerfing some overused perks, specially Dead Hard.
I'm not in the top MMR as killer, but I watch streamers frequently who are in the top and they're forced to play "sweaty" more by addons and perks than survivor skill itself. Purple medkits, CoH, 4 Dead Hards, Borrowed Times, Brand New Parts, frequent offerings for survivor sided maps (Haddonfield, Ormond, Badham,...).
Nerfing or removing broken addons like BNPs and purple medkits would help a lot, as well as making map Offerings ultra rare items maybe.
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The answer - and what I hope will happen - is that high MMR now placing a lot of attention on the longstanding massive balance issues in the game will make the devs adjust killers so that there's more variety at the high end and that everyone can have more fun.
High MMR does tend towards a more 'set' meta and does play out sweatier than more intermediate levels.
I really hope that we can reach a place where new/intermediate/veteran players can all enjoy this game without it coming down to a Hobson's Choice.
Oof, CoH. Was watching an Otz game today where a Wraith was basically hard countered by 'CoH exists'. Even he was remarking on how broken it was.
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Yes, I'd rather like to avoid a all-or-nothing scenario as well.
However, the Devs have known about these balance issues for years. They simply said that they aren't interested in fixing them. Now, that could have changed, but I doubt it.
Unfortunately, much like Hobson's Choice, they really don't get a choice. They either have to address high-level issues or the MMR system ends up not matching people with who they should be matched against.
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Yeah I have to agree I couldn't go back to the old matchmaking for survivor. Kill rates hovered from 65-75% for the last matchmaking system in red ranks.
Even with MMR most killers are preforming fine, they just don't enjoy how sweaty every single game is to win. Which I understand myself, however it does seem like it more objectively fair results.
I've tried thinking of ways to make everyone happy, and casual mode ect but every solution has another 100 possible problems.
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Again, I think the next 6 months or so are going to be very telling. If Artist is allowed to remain strong, it could help mix up the meta a bit at high MMR. Certain problem perks (CoH, DH, probably Overcome) are probably on their radar. Ghostface and Legion are getting reworks - maybe they could also do the trick if they are 'Plague' tier not 'Pig' tier.
What I think we all need to do is stop bickering about the MMR thing and demanding reversion back to ranks and really start hammering them on the balance stuff.
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CoH is even more broken against Wraith due his "hit and run" mechanic and the fact he can't snuff a totem while cloaked.
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Yeah, Hag is pretty rough too. CoH by it's nature sort of hard-counters attrition based styles.
I fortunately have a build that works decently against CoH, but it's really tedious to have to run it *every single game* in case someone brings it.
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