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The Artist has counterplay

After seeing some players complaining that The Artist doesn’t have a counteplay, I am convinced that these people have started playing DbD recently or they never evolved their survival skills. The Old Spirit with Stridor, Pyramid Head at his release, these were killers without any counterplay... Carmina is far from this status.

Playing with her and against her, I noticed some interesting things that can be used as a counterplay:

1. Run away from loops when possible. Carmina slows down while positioning her crows, this gives a opportunity to leave the loop.

2. Avoid map edges. Leaving loops is the strongest strategy,  but this is more complicated to do in map edges loops, so avoid these places, it is just as overwhelming as Pyramid Head and Huntress.

3. Remove crows immediately. I noticed that several survivors forget to repel, and this means that their auras will be shown constantly, making them easy targets for the Artist.

4. Be unpredictable if you aren’t in her line of sight. I noticed that after being attacked by crows at a long distance, some survivors just run in a straight line. This makes The Artist's prediction easier to get right. Performing random moves will make it harder for her to hit crows if she's not in line of sight (and this will only work if you're repelling them).

5. Destroy the crows if possible. The nerf came to be used by the survivors.

She's a killer who requires some intelligence to go against, not just running around pallets.

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Comments

  • Jago
    Jago Member Posts: 1,742

    Imagine running.

  • Dino7281
    Dino7281 Member Posts: 3,294

    Yeah, that's also why they can't find my Ruin under a minute...

  • Labrac
    Labrac Applicant Posts: 1,285

    Console players never repel. From what I read it seems the repel button is mapped as the same as the vault/drop pallet one, so they really can't repel at all.

  • ThatOneDemoPlayer
    ThatOneDemoPlayer Member Posts: 5,623
    edited December 2021

    They could just remap their controls, it's what I did when Pinhead came out

  • The_C12H15NO2
    The_C12H15NO2 Member Posts: 335

    "She's a killer who requires some intelligence to go against, not just running around pallets."

    You're 100% right that the artist requires more gameplay than "throw pallet & tbag". I enjoy the new killer powers and learning how to play against them. it's always rough at first until i work it out. Sadly i expect a nerf sometime in the next few weeks b/c most survivors don't want to change up their playstyle. The devs will prob cave b/c their "data" will say she's too strong.

  • EvilJoshy
    EvilJoshy Member Posts: 5,295

    Hold W?

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Counter play is the hold "w" and run to the corner of the map furthest away from the other survivors. Also run "Boil Over" so it's even more of a time waster for "The Artist" to take you to a hook.

  • Deadeye
    Deadeye Member Posts: 3,627

    on PC you have 2 different buttons, but you cant repel while vaulting. Same like you cant get rid of Victor and vault at the same time. This is intentional.

    And the list is in my opinion quite obvious. 1) is the same as against Trapper or Hag but less effective as she is able to move in the meantime 2) and 4) is a thing against EVERY killer and the rest is like "dont forget your tools" like entering lockers repels auto or flashlights can burn Wraith.

    I was expecting something like, what are your options when the killer simply shuts down every loop, like zoning you how every of the newer killers is able to do. Get distance? Well, I'd imagine something more skillful would be nice, but I guess this is not part of new concepts anymore

  • Tiufal
    Tiufal Member Posts: 1,252

    Those advices arent counterplay. thats basic gameplay as always.

  • just_one_player
    just_one_player Member Posts: 148

    Despite it's obvious and generic to be unpredictable out of her line of sight, I haven't seen it from the survivors I've faced. I've seen people running in a straight line across the map with the crows several times and taking free hits, and I believe this is one of the reasons they're complaining about her.

  • just_one_player
    just_one_player Member Posts: 148

    Yeah, but it seems that not everyone is able to do these things, if they were, we wouldn't be seeing as many complaints about her and I wouldn't have created this post.

  • pizzaduffyhp90
    pizzaduffyhp90 Member Posts: 901

    I think most Survivor Players just assume the killer has no counter play cause they have no experience going against them since she just came out. They forget that it takes time to learn the counter play I've only played against her once since she came out but, I played a few matches as her and I can already see some counter play when going against her.

  • hiken
    hiken Member Posts: 1,188

    the birds are extremelly annoying when used to affect teh other side of the map for free... that should get watched.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,514

    No counterplay is just survivors saying that they don't want to have to learn how to play against a killer. It's basically all survivors need to do now, cry "no counterplay" and wait for nerfs.

  • MedicSpirit7
    MedicSpirit7 Member Posts: 689

    Wait I thought it was intended that we can’t drop pallets while repelling, can PC do that??

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405
    edited December 2021

    That's like one of the best parts about her. The fact that she actually has some form of map pressure. Nerfing that would be the stupidest thing BHVR could do. Plus it's definitely not for free.

  • hiken
    hiken Member Posts: 1,188

    its for free, you get 3 crows to spam cross snipe all the time, its not like it has a huge cooldown at all. its free, and its dumb, unless it had some sort of sound cue or something that survivors could hear so they can move and avoid it.

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    It doesn't require intelligence, just common sense. The problem is playing with solos is that you can't help people if they're not paying attention. Case in point: The Meg gets unhooked and crouches down under the hook for a heal. I have We'll Make It for double healing, but if we sit under the hook the Artist is just going to crow us again. I wave her on. It's 50/50 shot if she follows me at that point to get out of the way.

    A better counterplay mechanic is to alert the entire map when she sets crows. That way you can predict whether you're a target or not. If you're on a gen or getting an unhook. Maybe put a delay to the alert in, that way they can't just hit the three obvious areas but can still get some hits in if they single crow.

  • chargernick85
    chargernick85 Member Posts: 3,171

    I was shooting crows around the map at gens but you can repel very quickly to the point by the time she can shoot again it no damage. Only time she is consistent with crows is at loops because she can keep you from repelling but from a far it's just tracking unless the survivors are bots and don't repel.

  • hiken
    hiken Member Posts: 1,188
    edited December 2021

    the worst part is that she can place 2 to 3 actually to camp the same hook and injured for free someone, and potentially down them, thats ultra dumb, not even considering she can do that aswell with gens, when used certain gen control perks is guaranteed to land hits, tehre is no risk and reward there is only a reward without any risk without almost cooldown at all.

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    Actually hold up a minute- how does the Artist even lose the final three gens? She can literally just hold them hostage.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333

    same as boon totems

  • FrndlyChnswSalzmn
    FrndlyChnswSalzmn Member Posts: 705

    No. She's fine. Stop thinking up nerfs for a Killer that doesn't need them; I already can't find a reason to play her over Nurse as it is.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    If you think that's free, than I am not sure if you played her yourself. Survivors that are not standing still and are farther away from you are still not easy to hit, even with three crows.

    I am also not quite sure if you've already played against her, but survivors do get a sound queue whenever the Artist sends her crows flying, and it is map wide. I've been able to dodge these crows a few times while on gens already because of it.

    I am also not sure how she can place crows at a hook to injure a survivor for free. First of all, she can't place crows within 10 meters of a hooked survivor. And in order to injure the survivor that is rescuing, or down the hooked survivor, she would have to place two crows in the direction of the hook, and with enough distance, so there is enough delay between the two crow swarms hitting the survivor, because survivors are immune to any further crow swarms for a very short time after getting hit by a swarm. Smart survivors will just move away from that position immediately and then not get hit by the second crow swarm.

    Nothing about her is free. She can not easily get an injure with two crow swarms, because she has to place them with some distance between them, and survivors can easily dodge the swarms. There is a risk, it can be rewarding, and there is a fairly high cooldown as well, when you use two and especially 3 crows at once. In fact, if you use 2 crows, the cooldown of the Artist ability is 9 seconds. 12 seconds if she uses three crows. The repel action takes 8 seconds. So if she uses two or more crows to swarm a survivor, she won't be able to injure the survivor before they repel the crows.

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    The fact she can fight the entire map from anywhere on the map is a good enough reason. Nurse can only fight what's immediately around her.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,514

    If you stand sit and don't repel the swarm, then of course she'll easily down you from across the map. It doesn't take much effort to not be downed by cross map attacks.

  • lovemeplz
    lovemeplz Member Posts: 84

    It dont change much when you repel the crow you cant do any action exept running. I catch some survivor off guard because of that.

  • TeabaggingGhostface
    TeabaggingGhostface Member Posts: 3,108

    Shes been out for barely two days and people are already crying for nerfs?

    She takes a bit of time to setup and theyre pretty easy to dodge

  • Leatherface1990
    Leatherface1990 Member Posts: 718

    She is OP AF. LOL.

  • Not_Social_Joker
    Not_Social_Joker Member Posts: 44

    NO! You're saying that I'll have to play differently, meaning I can't just run in a circle vaulting and dropping pallets, and actually have use my brain to learn how to go against the new killer?!?! That's it, I'm tired of this game favoring killers all the time. Meanwhile, all survivors have are Head On, Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, Boon: Totem of Healing, and MAYBE Borrowed Time (shoutouts to everyone who actually uses Borrowed Time and is a team player). I'm going to Fortnite, I've had enough of this bullshit! [this person would then get yelled at by their mother for swearing and will tell them to apologize]

    Man, I am a great actor. Not to toot my own horn, but I think I did a great job there acting out the role of a whining baby. Oh wait, the script says my role is a survivor, not a baby. Well, who cares. There's practically no difference between the two sometimes; especially when they throw a hissy fit.

    I want to clarify, I'm not insulting ALL survivors. Just the ones going, "ArTiSt Is bRoKeN, mE AnGY, FiX noW!"

    And to the survivors who fit that description, she's not busted or whatever, she's just new. Yes, she's strong, but not overpowered. learn the difference. If you can learn anything at all.

    The moral of the story is:

    You shoulda just played better lol

  • IlliterateGenocide
    IlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 6,028

    Another killer where we gotta hold w to "counter".

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    I always try. It's wrong to assume anyone doesn't. The reason you probably think people aren't trying is because if she initiates a chase then you have to take other actions as well and the repel action keep resetting. This tells me you're probably not the one primarily doing gens on your team.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    It wasn't just people with little experience that feared that she wouldn't have enough counterplay. Her potential to shut down loops is undeniably very strong. If she has line of sight on a survivor, and the survivor is cornered at a pallet loop, there is nothing more the survivor can do. The Artist will get a guaranteed down.

    But I am happy to see that she does have more counterplay than I thought. I underestimated her slowdown and the map structures that would allow survivors to try to get from one pallet or loop to another pallet or loop.

    Though I personally still feel like she would be more fun for both sides if her anti-loop potential was weakened a bit, so that survivors had the chance to dodge dire crows and therefore a direct damage hit at loops, being able to loop her a bit, even if she has line of sight on the survivor, and instead make her long range potential a bit stronger, so she has a better chance of actually injuring survivors at further ranges and through walls.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    To be fair, you can't balance killers around survivors that don't pay attention and what not. I personally think she should just have the notification when she send crows flying, and that's it. Her map pressure is surely not what should be nerfed, if she does need a nerf. It's her anti-loop potential that could maybe need a nerf, but only with a compensation buff as well, making her stronger against holding w.

    You are right that she can at least pressure multiple survivors across the entire map, but she can't actually fight the entire map from anywhere, because using more than one crow means survivors can repel crows before the cooldown of her ability ends again.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    Proof for what? That she needs a nerf?

    If you mean that, then no, not at all. Listening to people crying for nerfs for a certain killer before they try to even learm how to go against that killer is not the way to go.

    She is strong, but certainly not op in my opinion. We need strong killers like her in this game.

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    There are a few problems.

    1) Her TR is subtle enough it's basically a free Monitor and Abuse.

    2) She charges unlimited range attacks with no warning. There needs to be a ping or a cue to counter it.

    3) She is literally picking apart every single solo team I've been on by randomly casting crows. I can't even win hatch matches against her.

    So far I've beaten one Artist and lost every single other match badly. I haven't lost this many rounds to a single killer since Twins was all the rage and it wasn't even this bad.

    No we really don't. She is single handedly ruining the game for me and many others I know. The playerbase is in the honeymoon phase with her, in two weeks I anticipate a massive decline. I'm thinking about uninstalling again even though the Halloween event roped me back in after a year long hiatus.

  • th3
    th3 Member Posts: 1,845

    Yep and then wait for the constant complaints about how Holding W is so prevalent.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    Ok well I haven't had the same experience the few times I went against her.

    And there is a clear audio queue everytime she sends her crows flying. So there not being any warning is simply not true. There is enough warning.

    If you and others you know are struggling with countering the Artist at long ranges, then that means you just have to improve against her more. It's also not like it's likely for her to get a follow up hit on you when you are swarmed and are moving around. Plus it only takes 8 seconds to repel a crow, that's it.

    But as far as I can tell, she is not ruining the game for most people. And I am pretty sure the most common complaint about her is how good she can shut down loops, and get guaranteed hits when she has line of sight on a survivor. Not her range.

    There have been a fair amount of survivor teams that won against me, and surely they weren't all swf survivors.

    I am not against further changes to her, but honestly, if anything needs a nerf, it's her ability to shut down loops too well, and that as well is very debateable. Plus any nerf to her would need some compensation buff as well. She is strong, not op. This game needs more strong killers. People that play killer want to have fun as well. Or it will just have less and less people that play killer. I also think that at the moment, this game can afford losing a few survivor players more than it can afford losing killer players.

  • IlliterateGenocide
    IlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 6,028

    That's why I hate when I see so many people complaining about holding W when every killer since twins basically forces survivors to do so.

  • dnj510
    dnj510 Member Posts: 438

    From a console player, she definitely has counter-play, without perks even. She gives audible cues when she uses her power. If you're on a gen when she uses her power, just let go and move out of the way if she's using her power while not chasing anyone. Most likely, she'll aim her crows at gens to see of it catches anyone. You can run into idle crows to nullify her power a bit. Looping around pallets can be risky, so you have to break LoS and make distance from her.

  • kokoroo83
    kokoroo83 Applicant Posts: 18

    can she still see your aura while you're repelling? or only when the crows are finally off?

  • TransverseCaster
    TransverseCaster Member Posts: 543

    You're being disingenuous. Obviously there's a cue while they're flying. That's not a recourse.

  • Entinaty
    Entinaty Member Posts: 165

    After looking at countless videos and playing in matches against The Artist I find that the majority of complaints are simply untrue or don't have enough information to validate the complaint fully. The majority of complaints include:

    The killer's range and ability to get cross map snipes: The killer's range or intel gained from a cross map crow snipe is a bit overblown in my opinion. The crows themselves can't injure across the map unless the player is very good at single crow snipes or the survivor is not actively removing the crows, which even with add-ons that make the time to remove longer don't help if the killer is on the other side of the map as she has no map mobility. Even the complaint regarding the free intel is overblown considering that there are other killers that get the same intel if not better though their own particular perks or powers. For instance, I find the Doctor's static blast more threatening while giving the same amount of intel and even more of a passive disadvantage to the survivor depending on what tier of madness they're in. Also more threatening due to the fact that they know you are at least within their terror radius if it hits you instead of possibly across the map with the ability to have illusions that can tell the killer exactly where you are if they pay enough attention.

    No sound cue for her power: Simply untrue as most have pointed out on this post already. She has a map wide sound cue both when setting up the crows and firing them. Also terror radius and heartbeat are a thing so either run or hide depending on the distance of the killer while removing the crows.

    Sniped after being unhooked: When facing The Artist and going for the unhook wait until they have fired their crows before unhooking and then move immediately after unhook. I find the only way to be sniped off a hook is either by a lucky shot if they predict how you would move or by staying to be healed under hook, which for me is a taboo as a survivor because it is the fastest way to be put back on that hook.

    Strong Anti-Loop: I will concede that they have a strong anti-loop but not unfairly oppressive as she has already been nerfed from the PTB to no longer be able to have the little feathery balls of death act as landmines and down you if affected by crows and you run into it. At that point looping them is still possible around bigger loops but will depend on both the killer's and the survivor's skill at that point between hitting with M1 and trying to hit with a ranged attack, which slows them down. And then there is always the classic hold W method which I understand some would say is unfun but then again it is widely considered the meta for a reason. Also the only other alternative of looping the killer several times around the same loop and then pallet drop is sometimes even more unfun and even more stale.

    She decimates survivors in solo queue: When does a competent killer not do that for the most part. Again the correct option is to raise the communication ability of solo queue survivors instead of lowering every killer that comes out. We need to start seeing a variety of strong killers instead of killers that come out strong and then are nerfed and relegated to the garbage pile. For example, see Pinhead.

    Some things I have picked up while going against The Artist and watching others do the same:

    If far enough away from the killer and near a locker then use it.

    Multi level maps are not her friend, so maps like the Game, Haddonfield, Midwich, RPD and some others will still be a pain.

    Split up and do gens. She may snipe someone but she can't chase everyone at once.

    These are just some of the base observations that I have found after 2 days of the killer's release. Let us give it about a month or two before we try to raise the mighty banhammer against her.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,405

    How am I being disingenious? I was already able to dodge crows multiple times after hearing the audio queue. It's possible. And if you don't manage to dodge, you just move off the gen, and repel crows, it takes 8 seconds. That's how she gains some map pressure. This game doesn't need yet another killer with barely any map pressure and just good anti-looping potential. That's not enough for a killer to be viable at high mmr.

    I can see why people would want a bit more counterplay against her at short range, when looping her. But at long range, she has enough counterplay. It's very hard to hit a moving survivor that is further away and that you have no line of sight on. Survivors can repel crows to not get injured by the next crow swarm. Nerfing her range would just mean holding w would become better against her, while looping her would still be very difficult to do. I don't think most people would want that.

    If anything, her anti loop potential should be toned down a bit by giving survivors a bit of counterplay at loops, even when she has line of sight on the survivor, and her range capabilities should be buffed slightly, so her map pressure would become slightly better and her more skillful and interesting playstyle, hitting survivors at long ranges, would also become a bit more viable, making holding w not quite as strong against her.

    She is not op. This game needs incentives for people to play killer as well. It surely doesn't need less killer players.