Killers please stop complaining about SWF
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I wish they revealed whether people are SWF post game, so many people would realise how many SWFs they do decimate. Because most SWFs are dogshit - mediocre lol
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That's the funny thing, most people assume it's swf because they got stomped.
I've had many people accuse me of communicating things, when I did not. I simply played the game the same freaking way I do with my friends.
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Thats like asking people to stop complaing about tunneling and camping.
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I wouldn't call it unethical, but quite literally by definition it is cheating. Cheating is defined as an unfair advantage, look it up. Whether the devs allow it or not is irrelevant to its definition.
You're right the devs should do something about it, but blaming a loss on SWF is completely reasonable when that could have been very much the reason why as they are indeed "cheating". They could have simply played bad yes, but to say they shouldn't call out an imbalance in the game as to having a huge effect on its outcome is unreasonable. Yes even just friends messing around is a huge advantage.
In the end the blame should be at bhvr for not balancing the game around it and not at the players though.
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Depends.
Are you just playing with friends?
OR
Are you playing with your friends while sharing a form of communication device such as Discord, Skype, or Teamspeak?
Because if it is the latter: congratulations! Your team is getting a shitload of information perk-free! And Killers have every right to be annoyed by that!
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I'm not gonna blame you playing with friends is fun. I just kinda laugh at the suvs tbagging when they are in a swf because of how easy it is. A 4 man with the best perks and add-ons can make the Killer the prey but why wouldn't you use that stuff your trying to win. At this point tho I just back out in the lobby if I see a 4 or 3 man because it's honestly jusy not fun to play against. It's really the devs fault for not balancing. I have to bounce lobbies for 10 mins at a time to find a good game
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I'll stop when they nerf SWF. Until then you're not allowed to play with your friends
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People aren't complaining about you playing with friends. They are complaining about the sheer advantage being on comms gives compared to without.
What you just did was make a strawman argument
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It only becomes worth complaining when SWFs play in toxic manner towards the killer. You already have the advantage with comms, but still have to stack up on the best items and send the killer to survivor-sided maps, pissing the killer off by teabagging and clicking when the devs are literally holding your hand.
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I just want more bloodpoints for facing swf groups. Bhvr won't ever change them so give me mah extra bloodpoints.
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I think we all can agree that swf has the advantage caus how the game is balanced. I don't think making a voic chat for the game is a good idea cause it will just become a toxic pit of ######### but something they could do is mark the lobby if there are atleast three people in an swf so the killer can decide if he want to play this round where he is in the disadvantage cause the game favors survs and the swf got a advantage cause the have good communication
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And then people wonder why killer mains hate survivors. Face camp them with Leatherface next time.
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Ive got no problem with poeple who like playing with friends but i shouldnt be punished because of it thats simply just bad game design.
Its not secret that this game has major balance issues when swf is involved.
Post edited by DontNerf on4 -
Killer mains don't understand for some reason if they remove/debuff SWF the game will die.
Maybe they don't have friends or something because they play only killer.
This game is alive because SWF.
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Nobody is complaining about anyone wanting to play with friends. They are complaining about the massive advantage that comes with playing in SWF that is communicating. An advantage so massive, in a lot of cases if the survivors are actually experienced and know all the tiles, equipped with all the 2nd chance perks in the world... you might as well just go stand in a corner and wait till gens are done. Cause 9 out of 10 matches, it will end in 4 escapes, unless you facecamp one.
The fact is, survivor is already very easy as is. Even I as a solo often loop a bottom half tier killer for 5 gens straight. (Clown being a perfect example) Imagine what I would be able to do, if I wanted to actually bully the killer and I have friends that would help me do that... THAT right there is a problem. I'm not saying you specifically do so, but there are plenty of bully SWF that only queue up with the mission to gen rush and/or bully.
It is also the endless toxic trash talk and ego that comes with playing in a SWF. Almost every single time like clockwork. You know when you had a bad match, 4 escapes and they were obviously in communication, You are going to get trash talked. Never a GGWP. Never any other sort of sportsmanship. It is the complete self-unawareness that these SWF players have.
I could write a book about it, to make you and people like you understand. But there would be no point to it, as the devs will never listen to it and people will always want to play with their friends, whether it be for fun or bullying. What most killers want, at least I do, is a little bit of self-awareness and empathy :) You are playing with real people online, most of which just want to have a relaxing game. Simply showing understanding in endgame chat, would make the killer feel a lot less agitated and in need to complain about it. But again, for a lot of SWF players it is exactly the goal to get the killer agitated in every and all ways possible.
/end rant :)
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Its nothing to do with if they play together its that fact that a decent swf is far stronger than most players.
So mabye stop throwing around insults and try and see the issue from the other side hmm?
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They will never debuff SWF with penalties to repairs or limit perk usage or whatever, nor separate out the queues, they've said so many times. They will also never show SWF in pregame because they'd never get a match as they're dodged into oblivion. Again they will not make changes that hurt anyone's queues, which are bad atm anyway.
The only method that makes sense, and ever likely to be actually implemented, is to raise Solos closer to SWF level of info and coordination possibilities. Provide them the tools to be better coordinated, it'll be up to them to use them. And after that rebalance killers around the new reality.
Also I wouldn't mind displaying who's SWF after a match, but I see why they're reluctant to do so for toxicity reasons and such. Also showing groups across platforms might violate the various UEA'S the consoles have, I'll have to look into that.
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The issue isn't so much SWFs as it is:
- SWFs being matched against the same caliber of killers you were facing solo. That's where massive stomps come from, which are motivation destroyers on killers.
- SWFs are where the really unpleasant games come from - bully squads that will just refuse to end the game and meme on you for 30 minutes, or will play hide and seek for an hour because they gave you a 3 gen.
Two killers. Maybe.
That leaves a ton of killers that need to be buffed if SWF is allowed to continue.
The biggest issue is that the devs think that playing in an SWF is the exact same as playing solo, and don't do what other games do which is inflating your MMR when you play as a coordinated squad.
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I play killer a lot without slowdowns and i have all the achievements.
Try to get some friends and have fun in the other side. :)
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No.. no more perks that give information. Solo players need base kit changes that give swf level info so they can also run full meta and benefit from it. I'm talking Kindred base and a ping system so they can highlight totems and location. Blindness perks and addons will just need to be removed since they only screw over solo players anyway.
This is the only way to get solo players closer to swf.
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I don't personally mind swfs. I mind people who deny the huge advantage it gives you just for being in one.
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Right! You remove SWF and no one would play the game anymore.
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I won against a killer the other day and they messaged me and said “SWF is so balanced” umm i’m not even in that party but alright.
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We Will stop Complaining about SWF when Behaviour Nerf It.
Is not fair, is extremely unbalanced and Its Zero fun for killer.
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Let's be real bhvr will nerve hurt swf and they will never buff solos to the same strength let alone buff killers enaught to compete at the moment the game kinda lives on the enjoyment of swfs and the suffering of killers the only thing they maybe could do is work on that ######### mmr system and make it so that swf mmr gets a boost cause of the strengths that come with swf so swf players will face stronger killer players every time so we eliminate the bully squads.
The worst thing that swf brings us is two people beyond 3k hours in the game get matched with me because they got them self a newbe in the team
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And here I am just wanting an option to turn off SWF matches.
It’s infuriating to spend the entire match doing gens and healing the strays that run over to me (while on a gen) teabagging until I stop what I am doing to heal them just so that they can run back over to taunt the killer.
When the fun of taunting the killer and getting hit wears off, the killer then gets ran to me. I get downed and hooked no matter how long I run the killer and left to die on the hook while the SWF wants to teabag at the gate. While not having done a single full gen.
It’s not just killers that hate most SWF, it’s the solo’s that are tired of it too
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People really don’t understand that I never said SWF doesn’t have an advantage, but the problem is that way too many people blame their loss on SWF which is the equivalent of survivors blaming their loss on killers camping and tunneling. It’s not survivors’ faults with wanting to play with friends, when can people come to that realization?
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Just let the killer know how many people are together in the lobby
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No. I don’t think you should be allowed to play with your “friends”.
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Those are terrible reasons.
1) Voice chat would be optional and a ping system would be implemented for people who don’t want to use it. Easy solution.
2) Discord is not a part of DBD. Built in comms are required to be able to rebalance the game around them, which is a vital step to fix the colossal balance issues that would otherwise never go away.
Relying on third party services like discord simply leaves the game fundamentally broken as the devs can only balance around solo queue, meaning killers have to be weak, making them terrible vs people who do choose to use comms.
So the devs’ rationale for not having comms amounts to a misunderstanding of how their game works on a fundamental level, and catering to an extreme minority of players at the expense of not only everyone else, but the balance of the game as a whole.
Not surprising to hear at all.
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Oh I agree adding perks to try and cover that is just bandaids, and likely to be underwhelming compared to the more meta perks and not really used anyway.
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Not true at all. Not even close. There are so many more solo players than SWF teams. If the devs removed SWF the game would continue on and things would be better for everyone.
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Killer main here. SWF is balanced because I can beat them. Often times when going against a SWF team they will all stick together constantly unhooking each other while I kill them all off very easily. The ones that gen rush I just go okay thanks for the quick game and que up for another game, no problem. If they want a fast boring match that's what they will get.
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2) isn't correct. The devs themselves use third party comms when they play, so they also presumably use them for internal testing. And they can relatively safely assume that the great majority of swfs use their own comms, so any game data involving swfs also use comms. Therefore leaving comms out of DbD as a built in feature has no impact on how easy or hard it is to balance the game.
As far as 1) goes... 🤷♂️ I'm just passing on what I remember them saying in dev chat about it.
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Most discussion about the topic tends to almost inevitably head towards discussion about how to actually try to rebalance the game around it, usually through increasing the info-sharing tools available for base survivors. Call it "buff solos and killers", call it "balance around comms" - the goal is ultimately the same.
And I guess that makes sense too, as eventually people realize it's probably the only attempt at a "solution" that even has a microscopic chance of ever being considered by the devs. How to do it is of course tricky and there's disagreement there, personally I think even something as simple as a ping system + preset messages would go a long way, while others swear by voice chat. Could also combine the two, who knows what's the best option (emphasis on best: a perfect solution quite simply does not exist)
Most (as in vast majority) people won't demand stuff like the removal of swf or restrictive voice chat interference, because even if they'd really like it eventually they realize that's like getting mad at the sky when it's raining. A complete waste of brain activity.
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When they last put out stats (like over two years ago) they stated about half of all survs were in at least a two-man SWF. No doubt that number has increased with just how lovely it is in solo queue these days.
Also keep in mind the vast majority of the DBD playerbase is on one of the various consoles, where the role killer is played much less so there's an abundance of survs, plus party chat is built in and very simple to use.
SWF are here to stay, in the same queue as solos, and comms are here to stay too, as there's not much the devs can do at all to disrupt it either.
We need to work within those realities and frame our suggestions with them in mind, just as we need to keep the entire playerbase in mind too.
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I’m correct. The power imbalance between solo queue and SWF is a game-breaking issue which negatively impacts balance on a fundamental level.
Buffing killers to compete vs comms would make them overpowered vs solo, therefore the devs are forced to balance around solo, which of course makes killers weak vs comms.
With comms as a default feature, this is no longer a problem and the devs can buff killers accordingly, giving them the tools required to compete vs comms without negatively impacting solo queue.
There’s a reason so many killers are so consistently dissatisfied with DBD and it’s not just people complaining for the sake of it. This negative reception is a growing trend that’s not going anywhere until the core issue is addressed.
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Then don't complain if killers continue to complain about SWF
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God forbid the developers would actually have to do work
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I didn't say you're incorrect that SWF is a balance issue, I said you're incorrect that the devs not having voice chat built into the game is affecting their ability to gather data on it.
Also you're incorrectly assuming the devs are "balancing around solo". That's not the case, they're balancing based on how they internally play the game and the actual game data, both of which include many, many games that are on comms. The devs themselves regularly play on comms in fact, so why would you think that's not a factor when they're balancing things they're working on?
The issue with swfs isn't that the devs don't use comms (they do) and it's not that they don't have comms built into the game (because their test data already has lots and lots of games that have swfs on comms). It's that the fundamental advantages that comms give versus people that don't play on comms is difficult to actually work around unless they maybe had from the beginning gone into development with the eye toward having persistent buffs for solo players the people in swfs don't get to level the playing field. Without that many things they add to the game will have slightly disparate impacts on both solo and swf players that might be intractable - buff something that's weak for solo players and it becomes too strong for swfs, and vice versa if you nerf things that are too strong for swfs but not for solos.
So yes, they should address solo versus swf balance disparity, but adding comms to the game as a built in feature does absolutely nothing toward that end.
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Killers are always going to complain about SWFs because killers are simply not balanced to be as strong as most SWFs.
The only way this can be improved is if the devs give solo players some baseline communication like pings or just info on where people are and what they're doing, in order to help minimise the gap in power level between solos and SWF. Of course they would then need to universally buff killers as well to be more on level with survs as a whole.
BHVR though is intent on never giving any form of communication to solo survs so this will always be a huge problem for the game and will therefore always be complained about.
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So if me as a solo player get in a team with 3 other swf, the gens are also slower for me? amazing idea, not
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Then you mute them like other games have on their in game chat. I had a player in B4B that thought it was funny using racial slurs on everyone who played the characters.....we just muted him and it was all good.
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The issue is your missing the main point of all the complaints. It's not playing with your friends it's not wanting to punish anyone like that. It's the fact that SWFs use Discord to have constant surveillance on the Killer at all times and can plan accordingly.
Killers want something done about that and not SWFs in general.
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I never said the absence of voice chat prevents the devs from collecting data, but that it prevents them from balancing the game properly.
I’m not incorrectly assuming anything here. By the very nature of the power imbalance between solo and SWF, the devs cannot physically balance the game around one without it impacting the other and vice versa. There’s no getting around it.
Sure, they can try their best to compromise, but it’s impossible for balance to be consistent when there are two fundamentally opposed ways of playing the same game; two ways which inherently rely on different balancing approaches.
The devs themselves regularly play on comms in fact, so why would you think that's not a factor when they're balancing things they're working on?
Well I didn’t say it was not a factor. I said the devs balance the game around solo queue. They can of course take into account comms to the best of their ability, but that doesn’t mean they’d be balancing around comms, it simply means they’d try minimise the damage caused by such an inherent design conflict. A very hit or miss approach that misses the mark a majority of the time.
The issue with swfs isn't that the devs don't use comms (they do) and it's not that they don't have comms built into the game (because their test data already has lots and lots of games that have swfs on comms). It's that the fundamental advantages that comms give versus people that don't play on comms is difficult to actually work around unless they maybe had from the beginning gone into development with the eye toward having persistent buffs for solo players the people in swfs don't get to level the playing field.
I never said the devs don’t use comms. I’m sure they do but it’s sort of irrelevant.
Your conclusion here doesn’t really hold up for the reasons I’ve already stated. The advantages of comms are indeed difficult to work around but only if you don’t have comms as a default feature. With comms, it’s no longer an issue because there’s no longer a disparity.
You can’t adequately balance the game around two fundamentally opposed play styles when the difference in power between them is so drastic, and when the corresponding toolkits available to them are poles apart. Hence why DBD has such noticeable balance issues in the first place. There’s a reason for it. This is that reason.
Why do you think weak killers get nerfed instead of buffed? It’s because they’re too strong vs new/bad players, for there are no tools to facilitate team work in this teamwork oriented game. As a result, said killers are too weak vs everyone else and that’s mostly where they stay.
Adding comms as a game feature enables the devs to buff weak killers without negatively impacting solo queue. This is the key.
Without comms, killers have to be weak to compensate for the disorganised, inefficient and varied nature of solo queue. Without comms, the devs can seldom give them the tools required to compete vs efficient and/or organised survivors. That’s just the nature of it.
Sure, sometimes they get lucky and manage to strike a balance with one killer - I think we have what…3..maybe 4 examples? But this game has 26 killers. That’s a 11.54% success rate.
It’s a joke and needs to be addressed appropriately.
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Not only that but say if the killer is running thana, i’d fall asleep.
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You think its not? You know how many perk combinations would need to be nerfed if SWF is removed? Undying, Ruin and tinkerer needs to be gutted if SWF is removed. Killers like Nemesis, Artist, Hag, Nurse, Spirit, Blight and Stealth Killers who excell immensely when there are no comms would need to be reverted to weaker state.
DBD is balanced with SWF in mind. Doesnt mean they did a perfect job, but if you only had solo survivors, there would be a ton of issues. It's 4 man SWF where things can start to break a little. But thats not due to SWF or perks. Those are actually fine when it comes to numbers. It's maps that effectively allow survivors to have the exact same routing as killer that's the issue.
Saying DBD isnt balanced around SWF is like saying DBD isnt balanced around Nurse or Blight. It simply doesnt make sense.
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Again, you're assuming that the devs are "balancing around solo queue", but that's not correct. Literally half of all games include a 2-, 3- or 4- person swf, they're not ignoring half the game data when they balance the game.
Also building voice chat into the game does nothing to balance people on comms versus people not on comms because it's not going to force people to play on comms who don't want to. At most it could get a higher percentage using them, but there would still be a large segment who don't simply because they don't like playing with comms. (The same exact thing happens in other multiplayer games that have built in comms, there's a large number of solo players who just don't bother turning them on in the first place, it's not DbD specific.)
Now as far as "weak killers being nerfed because they're too strong against bad players", that is a tangential issue. It's nothing really to do with the devs ignoring comms or comms not being in the game, it's that they're allegedly making balance decisions based on whatever the average data for all matches versus data on specifically matches which consist only of high rated players. That has as much to do with certain killers having steeper learning curves than others or having a weakness against survivors who are efficient on gens or who just have higher level of awareness (solo ones or otherwise). High skill players on the forums complain most about these types of imbalances because they encounter them personally and tend to be more active on the forums, but the average DbD player doesn't come to the forums in the first place and may or may not encounter the same issues.
So no, the devs aren't "missing data on comms", they have plenty of it. Half the game data includes players who were on comms and they're well aware of that. And so it's not a lack of data or awareness that is causing the imbalances you're complaining about, it's about what the devs overall goals are and which target audience they're balancing the game for. They want a game where the median results are some survivors live and some die, and they are looking at overall results across all matches, both with and without swf, for those numbers. But that direction is in contrast to a vocal minority of the overall game population which consists of long time high skill players who are active on forums and who say they have made corresponding decisions which negatively impacted that top tier of play, the argument being that if they balanced solely based on high level matches then it would trickle down and also improve the experience in the average players' matches. Without going too much down that rabbit hole, though, the fact remains it's a tangential question to what we've been talking about, namely the suggestion that the game have built in voice chat, and the answer to that suggestion is it wouldn't impact their game balance decisions like you're claiming.
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I dont mind going against swf. I do mind when they all have the same second chance perks with voice comms. That its not fun. People wanna have fun with friends but why can't killers also enjoy the game? Best way to balance swf is add comms to dbd witht the option to mute the person and give killers more power.
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Yeah they should, but they won't. They'll never properly balance this game because to do that they'd have to start over from scratch, and that'd be too much work for them.
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