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How to counter stereotypical 'trash killer' (Noed, camping and efficient play aka tunneling)
Edit: I think many people missed the point of this thread completely. Wheter the tunnel, camp, noed and other stuff is healthy, unhealthy balanced, tryhardy on unfun is not the point here. Game is how it is right now. The point is for people to know what to bring and what to do against killers which they dislike to the point of crying on forums about, because there are tools to make such players loose majority of the times. It makes one look pretty... noncool when crying about something they can counter quite easily actually.
I see survivors crying about noed (which is a very weak perk) way too often and same goes for camping or tunneling. Developers gave you 4 perk slots, item slot, two addon slots and offering slot... There are tools you can use to counter thing you don't like...
"Duuh, but I need my 4 meta perks!" - if you really need 4 meta perks to win as a survivor... you are not good at the game... It might be harsh, but this is the truth.
You have the tools available, if you refuse to use them and still cry about very easily counterable stuff a killer can bring or do then it is on you, not on the game balance (which by the way is swayed in favour of survivors). You want your 4 meta perks? Sure, use them, but if you don't use tools the game is giving you for free and then cry about for example about Noed, you just look pathetic.
How to not be a crybaby:
Noone Escapes Death: When the exit gates are powered, the killer gains 4% movement speed and all survivors are exposed. It does need a dull totem which is transformed into a hex - if there are no dull totems left in the trial or it's hex totem has been broken the perk has no effect.
There are 5 totems in EVERY trial. Memorize their spawn locations and simply break dull totems during the game.
"But breaking totems is a waste of timeeeeeee" - Breaking a totem takes 14 seconds, which with 5 totems gives us a total of 70 seconds of cleansing time. Keep in mind that this is asymmetrical game - killers time being 4 times as precious as single survivor’s time as they can all do this simultaneously. Breaking all 5 totems prolongs the game by less than 20 seconds, get over yourselves.
“But it would take so much time running around and finding all of them!”
Multiple solutions to this ‘problem’:
- Don’t look for totems during a trial, just break one if you happen to see it in between doing gens (if 2 or more survivors in the team did just that, there would be no totems left in majority of the games). Inner Strength is a great perk to run as it gives this motivation to break dull to reward you with free heal in clutch moments. In short: Don't actively look for them, but if you stumble upon one - break it
- Use tracking perks. Small Game helps finding the totems and gives you a counter of how many totems have been broken (not only by you!). You can also use map with Detective’s Hunch or Counter Force. I like Detective’s Hunch a lot as it helps with generators too (great for indoor maps) and actually adds revealed auras to map if you hold one. I do like Counter Force with map more though, simply because CF gives you cleansing speed buff and helps finding totems - while map helps you find the first totem (CF aura reading activates when you break a totem and shows the one further away from you). Stamps on map help too as you will most likely run near a totem on the way to the one aura you have seen. CF doesn’t not add the revealed totems to the map though!
“But the boon perk!”: Yes, boon perks do require a totem to work. You can literally ask or tell others that you are using boons in pretrial chat. Booned totem can’t become Noed’s hex unless snuffed out, but keeping dulls not broken is always a risk - which is good, because boons are ridiculously overpowered at the moment. Make your choice, either have easy game with boons or guaranteed no noed end game.
Camping. This is literally the most boring and least effective thing a killer can do. It takes 120 seconds to die on the hook. During this time the remaining 3 survivors can easily complete 4 generators. EASILY! The first chase very often takes so much time for 1 to 3 generators to be completed - most of the times if killer camps the remaining three have the option to escape for free and leave killer with 1 kill, depip in emblem system, derank and below 10k bloodpoints.
“That’s boring!” Of course it is, but aren’t you hear because you hate campers? If you make them get nothing in as many games as you can they will camp less likely. Got camped? Stay on the hook - by killing yourself early you are literally helping the killer - make him waste as much time as possible.
“Okay even if I wanted, how am I supposed to know that killer camps, smartass?” Use Kindred. General perk, one of the strongest since the first days of the game and already buffed twice. It let’s you see aura of all other survivors if someone is hooked and aura of the killer if her is near the hook. In addition your teammates get the same benefits when you are hooked.
“How is it supposed to work when my trash teammates do nothing entire game?” Again, Kindred. You can’t force them to play good, but by giving them as much information you increase the odds of killer getting genrushed.
Tunneling: This is literally the most efficient thing a killer can do so don’t get surprised when the do try. Don’t like it? What if there was a perk… that would let you escape for free if they did..? Hmmm… Use Decisive strike?
“But it only works 60 seconds and deactivates if I touch a generator, ugabuga!”
If the killer tunnels you and then spends 60 seconds waiting out your decisive, the other three teammates have time to complete two full generators. If they pick you up and get hit you get a free escape. It will take them about 20 seconds to catch up to you if you just just run straight. Even more if you made it to the loop. It is a lose-lose situation for a killer who really tunnels. It does deactivate, yes, but if you have time to touch totem, gen or other survivor you are clearly not being tunneled. Oh you wanted to tap gen in his face? Too bad.
This game is about time efficiency. You may die, but by wasting so much killer’s time you make them loose as well - and isn’t it the best way to actually punish someone doing something you don’t like?
By giving up, disconnecting or killing yourself on the hook you help the killer. You do actively help player you hate so much. Don’t do it or don’t cry, because you do have tools to make them loose if they try doing that thing you hate so much. Also always try to wiggle free from the killer's grasp. They might want to bring you to a basement, scourge hook or to a beneficial location - don’t let them. Someone might even come and try to take a hit - don’t make they play go wasted.
There are many other perks like Borrowed Time (overrated in my opinion) or Kinship (underrated, but having it’s flaws and very rarely actually giving value).
I will repeat myself: Developers give you the tools to fight back and punish the thing you don’t like - if you don’t use them for whatever reason, it’s your fault. Not the game’s, not the killer’s, not your teammates… yours.
Best build for solo queue: Kindred, Small Game, Decisive + exhaustion perk or Spine Chill
Kindred to help your teammates coordinate (don’t go for save if someone else is already going to do this)
DS to waste killer’s time if they do try to tunnel. Together with Kindred it will let the other three survivors escape basically for free if they have brains, and that’s what you want, make the killer you didn’t like loose as hard as possible. They might even save you somehow and DS gives you a free escape too if gates are already opened.
Small Game: You know how many totems are in game and have an easy time finding them… what more do you need against Noed? Best soloQ anti Noed tool.
Exhaustion perks: Longer looping, even more time for your team to smash gens.
Spine Chill: Basically removes stealth killer or Tinkerer. If you don’t go down in 10 seconds without exhaustion perks it’s often way better to run this.
Final note on camping and tunneling: If the killer wants to throw a game just to kill you, they will most likely succeed. Best you can do is watch them getting genrushed and laugh at their 5k points. If you want to punish them, this is best way and by seeing how many survivor mains are actual crybabies - they most likely want the worst for the killer player. This is how you do it.
Comments
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@BreadTube Yes it does and I have written in detail how.
If the killer tunnels you and then spends 60 seconds waiting out your decisive, the other three teammates have time to complete two full generators. If they pick you up and get hit you get a free escape. It will take them about 20 seconds to catch up to you if you just just run straight. Even more if you made it to the loop. It is a lose-lose situation for a killer who really tunnels. It does deactivate, yes, but if you have time to touch totem, gen or other survivor you are clearly not being tunneled. Oh you wanted to tap gen in his face? Too bad.
If you combine this with the first chase and then time you actually spent on the hook other survivors have more than enough time to complete the objectives.
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What is the point of this article?
Yes I didn't read it just looks like a bunch of gibberish that's already been said a thousand times before.
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Most people are complaining that SoloQ needs Perks to be on the level of SWF, if that were the case, people wouldn't be complaining about Perks like NOED or strategies like camping
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@I_am_Negan If you can't read the title (which literally states what is the point) and didn't even take time to read through the meat of the article then I don't have answer for you.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer The only perk really needed is Kindred. You can play around many things by seeing what is everyone up to. The only killer's who sometimes counter it are PyramidHead (Cages) or Slug heavy Nurse/Pig. Other than that just running Kindred gives you more than enough information - very compareable to what SWF gives.
Is it fair? No, everyone agrees that SWF is broken, but that's the reality we live in. Keys got dumpstered, so there is hope that devs will do something about SWF in 5 years or so.
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Exactly this.
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SWF doesn't need a nerf. Punishing people for playing together is not a smart balance nor business choice. What should be done is to buff SoloQ to SWF level, either making Perks such as Kindred and Small Game (the Totem counter, not the inbuilt Totem tracking) basekit, or you create a Ping System that allows Survivors to communicate over the entire map with Auras so Survivors know exactly when and where each other are and then you buff Killers accordingly
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Totally agree. I get tunneled after first hook, use DS, get hooked again, and then what? No more DS, and I get tunneled again.
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Just another "Us vs Them git gud" thread.
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@Marigoria You have to understand it's 4/1 type of game. You can't win it by yourself. DS gives time to the remaining trio - and a lot of it!
DS applies pressure where it's even not in the game (Obsession is always present, no matter the perks).
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It's 4v1 when you're in a SWF, not solo Q.
Why would I care that people that I dont know escaped when I get nothing for it?
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Does doing bones prevent plaything too? Honest question
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Yes
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There isn't a perk out there that hard counters tunneling. Perks like BT and DS act as deterrants. They exist to deter the killer from tunneling, but they don't stop the killer from doing so. Sure, it's a monumental waste of their time but you aren't getting to do anything else but be chased which is kind of boring.
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@Kaitsja And what do you want to do in Dead by Daylight? You can either sit on gens or be chased.
Killer-survivor interaction is the only non boring part for me (That's why Blight is so cool, he cuts out running straight and it's just mindgames at loops the whole time).
I don't know man, if 60 seconds of free time (per survivor) in a game which can end in 4-5 minutes does not seem strong to you then I have no idea what would. For me it is hard counter, because getting hit by a ds usually means lost game if survivors actually try to win.
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Problem is at this point everything seems to be boring for survivor on these forums. Getting chased is boring. Sitting on gens is boring. Doing bones is boring. Everything is boring. Everything is boring.
Unless the killer takes it upon themselves to not play to enjoy a game but play to make sure you enjoy the game Everything is boring. Everything is boring.
Its like the forums/reddit want killer players to be the DM but forget most people only tolerate being DM because it means they get to tell a story. In DbD that usually just means getting repeatedly stunned for the survivors amusement.
Otherwise everything is boring.
Everything is boring.
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@cantelope Couldn't have phrased it better myself.
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Exactly.
Killer wins: Screams to nerf slugging/tunneling/camping because 'they are boring'. As if the Killer is meant to create Survivor's fun at the expense of their own.
Literally the excuses to nerf or remove or punish camping/tunneling/slugging were 'It's a boring way to play' and 'I'm bored on hook'. Yet it's not the Killer's goal to make Survivors have fun.
Survivor's counter? It should be. Don't go for the 4K, because it's boring. Give the hatch because it's nice. Don't tryhard because it's boring. Stop being mean and Survivors will stop being mean. It's on Killer's to sacrifice first and HOPE Survivors follow suit. Except...
Except; that never works in reverse. Ever. I have NEVER, in all my years of playing DBD, had a Survivor go 'Man, having a 4-Man escape is boring. Someone should die to the Killer so he can have fun'. The onus for 'fun' is always on the Killer. It's the Killer's fault if the Survivors are unhappy, but who cares of the Killer is unhappy, right?
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Being chased is fun, to a point. If it's all you're doing in the trial then it gets stale pretty quickly.
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I think what @Kaitsja is trying to say is that being tunneled-off-hook until you are dead, prevents you from actually playing a game you bought. DS gives you 5 measly seconds, basically Sprint Burst + 2 seconds. Here is how tunneling-off-hook looks.
- You get to loop, use your exhaustion perk, use your hit-speed-burst.
- You get DS. You might get BT. You don't get your exhaustion perk unless you have DH or SB. You don't get your hit-speed-burst. You may get to loop if you are lucky enough to be close. If you aren't running DS, DH or SB, then your 2nd "life" has been removed.
- You might get BT. You don't get DS. You don't get your exhaustion perk unless it's DH or SB. You don't get your hit-speed-burst. You don't get to loop. Your entire 3rd "life" has been removed.
If you aren't running the meta perks, DS, DH or SB, or your teammate isn't running BT, then your game is over after the 1st chase.
Any other game you play has deterrents to camping, because it's miserable gameplay. You have safe zones, random spawns, etc. DBD needs to go back to game-design 101.
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I guess you want "Press E to activate god-mode? Maybe it should be automatic so you don't have to press E?
######### does hard countering tunneling even mean? After a survivor is unhooked, they can never be chased again? Uninstalling hard counters tunneling.
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They want to be able to have a full gameplay state during their "2nd life". Instead they have no gameplay state if they don't have DS and a truncated gameplay state with DS. They don't even get a "3rd life" state.
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How is DS "god-mode"? Can you not be killed at all if you have DS?
Uninstalling also hard counters "survivor op", yet some of you guys don't want to do it.
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This game is too different to give 'safe zones' and 'anti-camping' mechanics, because the Killer literally has to camp to win sometimes, and Survivors would run into a safe zone with Sprint Burst and Dead Hard every time they are chased.
If you can't understand that different games have different designs, and no boilerplate template will apply to everything, then YOU need game design 101.
IE: Just because other games do it does not mean DBD should do it. This is a lazy excuse to demand punishments to Killer tactics so Survivors can win more easily. Nothing more.
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The fundamental problem with camping is the exact same: You lock someone into a death state. And nowhere did @Munqaxus say that DBD should have safe zones or random spawns or what-have-you, but they did imply that DBD needs -some kind- of spawn deterrent, like all other games with camping problems.
This is actually even more true of DBD, since it's asymmetrical. Camping is a lynch pin in a bunch of balancing issues. There's complaints that survivors clear their objectives too fast, but what happens if it gets slowed down? Sure, regular, 12 hook gameplay gets buffed, but not nearly as much as camping does. Killers will be more incentivised to just sit on hook and wait for the first target to die, since with slower gens, it'll pretty much guarantee a 2K or better.
Almost any kind of buff to killers and any kind of nerf to survivors is going to benefit campers more than it's going to benefit people who play legitimately. That's why camping is such a pressing issue: It's holding not just that one survivor on the hook hostage. It's holding the entire game itself hostage.
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By spawn-deterrent, what do you mean?
Immunity so you can find & do gens when a match starts? That's hard fair, if the Killer finds you; you have free gen time now.
Or immunity to being 'tunneled' when unhooked? Because there's perks for that. Anything built in would literally break the game at this point, given DH, DS, BT & Unbreakable. (Seriously; DS & Unbreakable = Killer Can't Win. They wait out DS? You stand up and run. They pick you up? You DS.)
Or immunity to being camped? Any fix that I've ever read had massive exploits Survivors could abuse for free unhooks. To which the makers said 'That's the Killer's problem'. Which meant the fixes were less 'Play fair' and more 'Let me win, screw the other side'.
Survivors need to let go of this 'punish tunneling/camping/slugging' because it will never go away. If a Killer wants to try to win; who gets to demand they do it 'my way'? Why do Survivors get to demand Killer tactics be removed/punished/nerfed? Why can Survivors pound out a gen in 60 seconds and say 'Killer's fault' and then get camped and say 'This is not fair'?
Because they are the same thing; doing one's objective as efficiently as they feel is possible for the moment. Why do Survivors think they have a right to demand Killers play less efficiently? Why do they shove this bullshit under 'Fun' and 'Fair play', again, placing the onus for their 'fun' directly on how the Killer plays?
It's nothing but a smokescreen for 'Let me win easier'.
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I feel like this discussion has been had so many time already lol. I had a Meg call me camper when they had one gen left and it was a 3 gen. I didn’t camp I went away and I got her with my shred attack. She dced😑. There are ways to counter tunneling, but it requires having a good team first and then perks second. “Strength in numbers” but if your teammates don’t take hits or try to take the chases if you are getting tunneled then that’s on your team. Ds can counter to a certain degree but killers will usually get back on them and if it’s a nurse, ds wont do much. I had feng use DS on me because I was stupid not to pay attention but I got her after. As for noed, it’s fine the way it is. Small game I don’t really like, but I use detectives hunch, circle of healing, borrowed time and lithe. Detectives is really good I like it. The only thing I dont like about noed is that you don’t have time to do bones if a killer is face camping at 5 gens because the only way to counter that is by gen rushing. I know there are people that say you can do both while a killer is camping but unless u have Probzz looping the killer after the person on hook is sacrificed, that narrative is bs.
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By spawn-deterrent, what do you mean?
Sorry, that's meant to be 'camping deterrent'. My bad.
Or immunity to being 'tunneled' when unhooked? Because there's perks for that. Anything built in would literally break the game at this point, given DH, DS, BT & Unbreakable. (Seriously; DS & Unbreakable = Killer Can't Win. They wait out DS? You stand up and run. They pick you up? You DS.)
Yeah, there's perks, but those cost perk slots. Not exactly fair to band-aid bad design by forcing players to just give up build variety.
And DS+UB = killer can't win? If you don't go for the unhooked target, DS never fires unless someone baits you into it. The ONLY times I ever got hit by DS is when I got baited into it and I could've easily avoided it.
And even DS UB isn't unstoppable. So they get up with UB, then what? You're on top of them and they go down in one hit. Hardly 'unbeatable'.
And all of this is on the premise that an anti-tunnelling measure needs to, for some godforsaken reason, leave room for the killer to continue tunnelling. It's laughable.
Or immunity to being camped? Any fix that I've ever read had massive exploits Survivors could abuse for free unhooks. To which the makers said 'That's the Killer's problem'. Which meant the fixes were less 'Play fair' and more 'Let me win, screw the other side'.
Aside from some of those complaints being complaints that anti-camping measures would make camping difficult; Just because a solution hasn't been found yet doesn't mean DBD doesn't -need- one.
Survivors need to let go of this 'punish tunneling/camping/slugging' because it will never go away. If a Killer wants to try to win; who gets to demand they do it 'my way'? Why do Survivors get to demand Killer tactics be removed/punished/nerfed?
Because, like it or not, survivors also play this game. Much like busted old DS and keys were gutted, other changes can, have and will be made to accommodate killers and improve their experience. The same can be extended to survivors. The more you entrench yourself in this idea of 'survivors shouldn't have a say in killer balance', the more you also discredit any idea for survivor nerfs.
Less 'us vs them', more 'how can we make the game better?'.
Why can Survivors pound out a gen in 60 seconds and say 'Killer's fault' and then get camped and say 'This is not fair'?
Because gens need to go this fast precisely because of camping. Because if you make gens slower, camping becomes stronger. Exactly as I said: Camping is the lynchpin to almost ALL of DBD's balancing problems. A TON of things that would make the game MUCH better cannot happen as long as camping still exists, because camping would just scale out of control.
It's nothing but a smokescreen for 'Let me win easier'.
You are literally advocating for the lowest possible effort strategy a killer can employ, buddy. Do you really think you have any kind of high ground here?
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Well, most fps games can involve a lot of walking to an objective to get sniped from the other end of the map with a knife. Would you consider it playing the game you bought if every time you got downed there was 30-45 seconds of running back to the trial.
Also many of those other games play extremely different that dbd. The only way to change this would be to scrap the entire game and make a new one. Especially since, as I've said in other threads, the frequency of someone being called a camper/tunneler/swf/hacker when they aren't is much higher than you think.
You'd have to build the game around protecting players from making bad plays, and I garuntee they'd still happen, and they still be blamed on camping/tunneling/swf/hacker.
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Honest question: do you maybe have some ideas to prevent tunneling camping?
Every time all you read is so ridiculous or can be abused so easy I really like to discuss some honest ideas that don't come out of a pit of surv bias and killer hate
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The first part is an ongoing argument, so I'll pass that.
As for claiming 'Gens speeds are fast because Killers camp'; you have it backwards: Killers started camping when they realized gens were going faster. But there you are; blaming Killers for Survivor's actions and 'fun'.
I've been in the game since launch; Killers rarely camped, because camping sucked, at the start. Until gen speeds sped up, thanks to perks and toolkits and an overall optimizing of Survivor's gameplay loops. At that point, Killers realized they HAD to get kills ASAP to slow down gen speeds, not trade hooks.
Show me anywhere where devs said 'We made gen speeds faster to compensate for camping'? You can't. Which means gen speeds WERE NOT optimized because Killers camp. Instead, since gens can only go so fast, it's more likely that Killers adopted new strats as Survivors got faster thanks to perks, items, addons, and a general building of personal skill.
But, of course, you look at the problem, blame Killers, then say it's Killers that must be punished/nerfed to fix it, then try to say 'But we should not do Us Vs Them' right after you did Us Vs Them.
And for 'advocating for the lowest possible effort strategy a killer can employ'.
There's that peer pressure. Shame Killers into avoiding tactics Survivors deem 'unacceptable', so they won't do them. Because Survivors feel they have this divine right to determine how their opponent plays. And if they can't scream for nerfs, they will use peer pressure, insults, and subtext (Camping is what BAD killers do! (Unsaid: You don't want to be a BAD killer, right?)) to alter their opponents behavior.
Even if you don't want to 'us vs them' the discussion; you sure do still partake of it while trying to demand I should not.
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@Firellius is right, gen speeds have to be adjusted for the most effective tactic. The most effective tactic is tunneling-off-hook and camping, so gen speeds have to be adjust to that tactic. Killers have always camped and tunneled-off-hook, it's nothing new.
Fixing tunneling-off-hook and camping doesn't punish the Killer because Killers find it unfun to use these tactics also. Why do you think it's a punishment to fix tunneling-off-hook and camping while also reducing gen-speeds and healing speeds? Also, you have to remember tunneling-off-hook and camping is disproportionately worse for survivors than it is for Killers. However, it's bad for both sides.
Again, @Firellius is right about it being the lowest possible tactic. It's something Killers learn, even before they learn each killers power. Why should Killers be rewarded for something that doesn't require any effort. Shouldn't Killers be rewarded for actually doing something, such as successfully mind-gaming, which is far more tactical than sitting in front of a survivors face.
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You have to remember that Survivors reward camping. Survivor mains ignore this fact to whine and complain, but if I camp, and Survivors don't pound those gens as fast as possible to prevent me from getting a 2,3, or 4K? Or if they come and camp the hook and wait for me to leave?
That is their fault.
Why should Killers be punished for 'camping' when it's Survivors who reward it? Oh, right; because Survivors are outright demanding the Killer shoulder the entire onus for the game being fun, at the expense of them winning. Survivors can genrush. Survivors can crouch-spam and use flashlight macros. Survivors can bully and BHVR says 'This is okay'.
But Killers camping, and Survivors rewarding it by hiding near the hook and DEMANDING they get free unhooks? That's just unfair, and all Killer's faults and why don't Killers think of Survivor's fun, and etc. etc.
'Why should Killers be rewarded for a tactic that requires no effort?" Rofl, the bias is large with you.
'I don't think this tactic is hard enough, so why should Killers benefit?' Once again; demanding Killers play in a way you approve of simply because you say so. That they should have to work harder for their kills because you don't want 'Easy tactics' rewarded.
If you can't see the massive bias in your entire post, then I don't need to try countering it, because nothing will get through to you.
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I've been in the game since launch; Killers rarely camped, because camping sucked, at the start. Until gen speeds sped up, thanks to perks and toolkits and an overall optimizing of Survivor's gameplay loops. At that point, Killers realized they HAD to get kills ASAP to slow down gen speeds, not trade hooks.
The very first PTB involved anti-camping measures. You can keep thinking that killers are perfect little angels, but they're not all interested in a fair game, and some aren't interested in pushing themselves for a big win.
Show me anywhere where devs said 'We made gen speeds faster to compensate for camping'? You can't. Which means gen speeds WERE NOT optimized because Killers camp. Instead, since gens can only go so fast, it's more likely that Killers adopted new strats as Survivors got faster thanks to perks, items, addons, and a general building of personal skill.
Who's talking about gens being sped up?
I'm talking about how the devs CAN'T slow gens down, because it'll directly buff camping. Hard.
But, of course, you look at the problem, blame Killers, then say it's Killers that must be punished/nerfed to fix it, then try to say 'But we should not do Us Vs Them' right after you did Us Vs Them.
I'm pitting things against a flaw in game design, not against killers. I am constantly saying that we could improve things for killers if camping were to be removed. From the get go, I mentioned that camping is upholding balancing issues. That includes things working AGAINST the killers. That's why I'm going on the 'gen speeds can't be slowed because of camping' angle. It's a buff for killers, but it's hamstrung by camping.
My entire argument is trying to figure out how to nerf campers so we can buff killers, and you're saying I just want to nerf killers!?
There's that peer pressure. Shame Killers into avoiding tactics Survivors deem 'unacceptable', so they won't do them. Because Survivors feel they have this divine right to determine how their opponent plays. And if they can't scream for nerfs, they will use peer pressure, insults, and subtext (Camping is what BAD killers do! (Unsaid: You don't want to be a BAD killer, right?)) to alter their opponents behavior.
YOU came barging into this thread to shame people for wanting camping fixed. YOU came in here to try and peer pressure people into dropping an argument for improved game design.
Even if you don't want to 'us vs them' the discussion; you sure do still partake of it while trying to demand I should not.
Because you're not reading any arguments. Any word against camping you immediately turn into 'Survivor want killers nerfed' with zero nuance. You don't bother trying to invest yourself in the discussion, you don't bother exploring other perspectives. You just immediately jump to the conclusion that the survivors must want killers nerfed and survivors buffed.
THIS is why we're not getting anywhere. This kind of attitude has people aiming a loaded gun at the other side and saying 'You drop yours first, and I'll totally drop mine after'.
No. Both sides will have to make concessions if this game wants to have any chance of improving.
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I'll say 2 things:
- The devs really have to look at 'Camping Vs Gen Speeds' and do something, regardless of how the player base feels about it. Because the player base will never agree.
- They have to implement whatever fixes to both at the same time. Not nerf/punish camping, then fix gen speeds 6 months to a year later. Not fix gen speeds, then alter camping 6 to 12 months later.
If they don't fix both at the same time, in the same patch, one side or the other will riot. Either Killers will be stuck with 5 minute games and the inability to secure game-changing kills, or Survivors will have games drawn out while Killers camp.
And, honestly, I don't know if BHVR can do it. Not slinging mud, but they kind of have a history of speed-changing Killer's powers/perks ASAP while slowly adjusting Survivor's perks. Maybe that's why so many Killers don't see a change forthcoming; because it won't be an equal change, and will skew the game so hard for months, if not years.
Just look at this healy-boon; both sides seem to agree it's OP...And nothing has been changed. But I have a feeling, had it been a Killer perk? Within 7 days, there would have been a patch.
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And I fully agree with both of those rules. The game needs a one-shot overhaul that lowers the stakes for both sides, so that killers can take a breather and survivors don't have to deal with tactics that see them locked out of play.
It's definitely not going to be easy, and yeah, it's doubtful BHVR can do it. They made -this- MMR system, for pete's sake! But if, somehow, they managed to do it, they absolutely need to nerf/buff both sides, equivalently, at the same time.
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I understand that you are highly emotional in your arguments and that you falsely believe people want to make Killers completely useable. However, the people you are talking to play both sides, Killer and Survivor. We tend to have a better understanding of the game than people who sololy play Killer and tend to be a lot less biased on one side or the other.
From someone who plays both sides, I want to be able to play Killer without needing to still in front of a survivors face until that survivor is dead. I much prefer to win my games with much higher skill tactics such as mind-gaming. However, since there are killers like you, that prefer to use face-camping and tunneling-off-hook, then that puts pressure on us Killer players who want to play different because the game is tuned to your style of play.
I want gen-speeds to be slowed down so that there is much more survivor vs killer interaction, chases and mind-gaming. However, I understand the game is balanced right now. Because the game is balanced, I also understand that the Killer side has to give up something to get something. I would like to give up tunneling-off-hook and face-camping, because I, as Killer, find it extremely unfun. If you enjoy face-camping, then I understand you defending it but I think there's a lot of Killer players that really don't enjoy it and would like gen speeds slowed down.
I would explain the survivor issues with face-camping and tunneling-off-hook, but I see that you only understand the Killer side. So hopefully, I explained this from your perspective so you can understand it better.
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Honestly, and I don't see this happening, as it's a complete game overhaul; Remove the hooks.
When the Killer downs you; he kills you. His murdering of you feeds the Entity. And then then Entity forces you back onto the map.
By which I mean a Survivor can run around as an invisible ghost, and can see the map, but not: Living Survivors, the Killer, Totems, or Killer traps. (This is to prevent the Survivor from spying on the Killer using Discord while dead).
The Survivor then has 60 seconds to run around (Time can be adjusted), and can spawn in sooner if they want. Upon spawning, they are immune to being killed for either 30 seconds (can be adjusted. This is to make it take too long for a Killer to want to tunnel them), or until they: Drop a pallet, disarm a Killer trap, interact with a gen or totem.
Each Survivor must be killed 3 times (can be adjusted via balancing, bearing in mind the Killer is also wasting time in kill animations).
Gen speeds would probably not even have to be nerfed by much, given Survivors would be 'dead' quicker (you're cutting out carrying & hooking).
And it would add weight to being caught; you're not hooked & waiting to be rescued. You're dead and waiting to respawn.
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They will say these things are ok because you can counter them, usually YOU can't. The counter is being in a swf on comms with meta perks or if in soloq hoping the killer is really bad or your teammates aren't really bad. In soloq these things are not usually counterable. Even if you're "lucky" in soloq and get a 3man swf, they're more than likely to sandbag and leave you to die.
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Gen speeds would probably not even have to be nerfed by much, given Survivors would be 'dead' quicker (you're cutting out carrying & hooking).
I think the removed carry/hook time would be cancelled out by the fact that none of the survivors have to invest time in rescuing their teammate though, so I think you'd still have to nerf gen speeds a bit.
I personally wouldn't really like this idea, because I enjoy sneaking my way past the killer to go for a safe unhook, but I can see it working. I think VHS does something like this.
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This is one of the reasons I'm moving to VHS the moment it comes out.
I feel like the main thing holding this game back and causing multiple balance issues is hooks.
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If camping and tunneling bother you and ruin your day, take a break from survivor for like a week. Play some killer. Maybe civ.
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Or just... run Kindred and DS... and completely counter it...
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I was indeed trying to say something along these lines. I wanted to elaborate on it further, but it was 3am where I live at the time of my post which made it rather difficult.
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Tunneling is an extremely strong tactic that is either efficient or will net you a 1k at best depending on how good the survivor you're tunneling is.
Unfortunately, it's also boring to play against. Yes, the chase is fun but only to the extent that you want to be able to do more than just be chased.
Tunneling isn't hard countered by any perk. DS - Killer will continue to tunnel. BT - Wait out the 12 seconds or just hit and continue tunneling. Survivors can do everything 'right' in terms of playing against tunneling and the killer will still be assured a 1k at the very least while the survivor who was tunneled out of the game had a miserable, frustrating experience. They didn't have fun, to say the least.
To alleviate and discourage tunneling, two things need to happen. The first is that the killer should be encouraged to target other survivors. Something like a small BP bonus for going after a different survivor. The second is that the best way to make tunneling less frequent is to have a perk like Babysitter (Now known as Guardian) be basekit for survivors.
The way Guardian currently works is great and would help alleviate tunneling, but if it were to be basekit then I would want the old effect back where it would reveal the killer's aura to the unhooker, and show the unhooker's aura to the killer.
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@Kaitsja Tunneling is hard countered by DS, because it gives enough time for three other people to escape basically for free if they actually try. Killer throws a game if they tunnel, eat ds and keep chasing (You still can run and go loop some tiles after stabbing the killer, you know?).
It is a 4vs1 game, not 1vs1 so stop looking at it like it was 1vs1.
Your change to Guardian is also bad, because it was already a thing and what it basically did was hiding the unhooked survivor so they could stealth a bit while also telling the killer that it did so (aura reading of unhooking)... You can't stealth when game annouces that you stealth. Right now Guardian is better than BT, but people refuse to use it for some reason.
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If you want to know the real issue with solo Q, you just nailed it.
Lot of people who decide since they queued alone, they aren't really in a team.
Prior to swf, it was common for survivor players to communicate with one another using points, crouches and the like. Now? If they didn't come in as a group, they see no reason to care about their teammates. That's not the fault of swf being too powerful, it's the fault of people playing a team game without any sense of teamwork.
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@Marigoria Well this explains a lot :).
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Yes, it is a real issue to get left to die on hook even when you have kindred and the killer isnt camping.
Yes, it is a real issue when you're dead on hook and the claudette who hasnt even been hooked yet doesn't try to take aggro.
Can you tell that person how they could have done better as a team?
As someone who plays mostly altruistic, and I dont have an issue with dying because MMR doesnt affect me in crossplay off, I think you're seeing my comment as something that isn't my particular trait, but as a mindset a lot of players have.
If it does, please do explain.
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You played since the beginning where gens could be done in a few seconds and you think its gen rushing now lmao
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