Corrupt Intervention and Ruin regression
Should be baseline, the only difference in the Hex and normal gameplay is that the Hex does it automatically and a generator doesn't need to be damaged.
Corrupt becomes a 'slow start' mechanic that prevents survivors from getting 3 free gens while a killer is still looking around.
Higher regression allows for more back and forth between killer and survivor, gen speeds no longer a problem anymore and they weren't made just flat out longer for more boring M1 gameplay. And killers aren't forced to run 4 regression/gen defense perks to do anything worthwhile.
Edit to clarify: I'm only suggesting that base regression be the same as Ruin, Ruin as a hex would still be needed to make generators *automatically regress*
Comments
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Thats fine, I also think DS should activate twice now, once on each hook to solidify its place as an anti-tunnel mechanic.
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I feel like Lethal Pursuer should be basekit so killers dont have to search so hard in fear of maybe 2 gens popping.
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I'm not sure if thats the change I would make personally. Aura reading is a little too much of a hard buff of knowledge. I would probably change survivor spawn logic so that they always spawn together instead, so at least then they either all commit to the 1 gen, or have to take the time to spread out to find something else.
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What's your plan to stop basekit DS and BT from being a guaranteed escape out the gate during the end game?
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Agree with both of you, maybe this change could reconcile killers and survivors even if so slightly.
You've basically lost at this point and indeed tunnelled to try and secure a kill. The unhooker is also incapable of having DS if they unhook so you should've targeted that instead.
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If they escape, they escape. You can always just grab the unhooker.
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Conversely I think you're both wrong and would quit as it would make both ques irritating.
Also DS going off twice would solidify it as a bodyblock perk as that's what survivors use it for if you don't tunnel off hook.
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Just make it so that as long as survivors have BT they cannot body block.
Alternatively, you could play more Myers or Ghostface that lose collision while stalking.
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Survivors should be able to bodyblock with it. Just not for free.
Also by that logic all killer problems are fixed by saying "just play nurse or blight". If your solution is to ignore all but two killers it's not a solution.
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And what do you do when they body block the unhooker?
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Apperently the answer is to play Myers and Ghostface.
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I dunno.
Basekit ds and bt? And wanting to activate it twice? you wanna make killers quit faster? lol
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In fairness, a lot of players I go against always have BT anyway. So by making them basekit you are really just training new players from the ground up that you don't want to tunnel because you won't get anything out of it anyway.
Also I think you missed the part about free corruption and base regression being equal to ruin.
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What if they spawn on ruin?
What if your ruin spawns in the middle of the open like it usually does? You ain't considering how bad the spots are,
yeah i got Corrupt, but doesn't mean they can just do the basics, Hold W while pre-throwin', #########'s borin' asf
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Don't allow enough space for a body blocker to get between you and the unhooker?
Play Myers or Ghostface that lose collision?
If 3 survivors are going for the unhook, its really on them to mess up the teamwork than the killer be able to overcome their efforts through sheer force of will.
There wouldn't be a ruin hex unless you take it?
I'm saying buff base regression to Ruin speed. You'd still have to damage a generator for it to start regression.
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"Don't allow enough space for a body blocker to get between you and the unhooker?"
How?
"Play Myers or Ghostface that lose collision?"
You are introducing a problem that can only be solved by spending real money on DLC. This is a good solution?
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Rofl. No.
Sometime tunneling is needed, and Survivors don't deserve to get out of a down 8 times a match (twice per Survivor). This would make it almost impossible for Killers to get kills so...No. DS should not be basekit, and it should not activate twice.
Neither should BT. Screw that OP noise.
Not unless NoED becames basekit to compensate for the fact that no Killer will have more than 2 hooks before all 5 gens pop.
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You don't put yourself in such a bad situation. That's what you do. Can't expect to have easy downs served to you when you had a whole 5 gen Game with a free Corrupt Intervention. Weigh your losses and make them screw up the unhook. Or don't. Thirsting for that one kill is extremely lame. Kill people before that.
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Creating pressure is necessary, tunneling is just the easiest way to create pressure. If you down someone with DS and just leave them slugged that means they can't use DS and if they get picked up that means you are pressuring 50% of the team. If you've downed and hooked the unhooker, that means you are pressuring 100% of the team because someone has to go for the pick up AND the unhook.
A lot of high tier players play around having DS (and in fairness at high MMR most survivors run DS still anyway) the only difference is survivors would actually HAVE DS and theres no more guess work from a killer.
Furthermore, even if DS wasn't made base kit I still think it should activate twice considering all of the (rightful) restrictions placed on it.
Killers have a larger hitbox than survivors. It is not difficult to choose a hook that prevents survivors from squirming between you and the unhooker.
Furthermore I'm not introducing a problem at all. BT and DS already exist, and they are already used quite often. I usually see 2-3 of each every match personally. The only difference now is that a killer /knows/ they are being used /every/ time. This changes how a killer interacts with the unhook fundamentally from the ground up.
I'd certainly be open to more killers losing collision, or a mechanic of collision loss similar to around the basement stairs.
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If decisive strike is basekit it should be an item and not a perk. Huge item overhaul. All items should be “Trial Items” unless they’re the festival (Seasonal) items. You don’t leave with items unless they’re festive items. Remove all the clutter from the Blood Web so we get more of these fun items and BP based items. As survivor I’m going for things like Escape Cake, Envelopes, and Firecrackers anyway. Items you find in a trial now have a chance of having add ons. Perks like Plunderers and Ace increases the rarity/likelihood of what you can find. Giving survivors a reason to bring the perks.
For DS survivors must break a hook somehow (Items or Perks), and then pick up the broken piece before a new hook spawns. In that time survivors carry the piece. New hooks will spawn every 60 seconds. The Green Wrench add on will extend the time for broken hooks and holding a piece of hook for 15 more seconds. The piece fades upon use. Dropping it causes it to fade. The killer can’t see it, but can see whenever it fades. The killer can use Hangman’s to find hooks that are safe to hook survivors. Franklin’s can counter this abuse altogether. The balance for it all is it takes perk slots for killers to counter. For survivors it consumes their time to produce pieces while giving themselves away. Unless they found a toolbox with protective gloves to make it silent to the killer.
Sabo lets you see the hooks when someone is being carried. You also produce a piece once you break any hook. This creates the idea that you produce a piece in an attempt to sabotage as carried survivor attempts to wiggle free. Either you or the survivor that wiggled free can pick up the piece whenever the killer is stunned from dropping the carried person. The other situation is you take the time to break a piece to carry for yourself or an ally at all times once per minute. Giving your position away to the killer is the consequence.
Breakdown becomes the second Anti-Tunnel perk. When you’re unhooked or unhook yourself the hook breaks. Giving you or an ally a piece to pick up. Then you see the killers aura for a few seconds as well once you’ve been unhooked. So you know which direction not to go. Unless they’re undetectable that is.
Post edited by WaveyTrey on0 -
Basekit this, basekit that.
Devs dont want to make kindred surv auras basekit because it would be too much but yes, by all means keep dreaming of meta perks being basekits
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Basekit everything!
I actually don't get what they mean by "too much" for surv aura kindred. It's already a thing when you are the one on hook, so that is not changed much... It would actually just change from "Whenever you are on hook" to "Whenever a survivor is on hook". Not really something completely new and it would help a lot.
At least give me ######### chat wheel...
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Stalking makes you slower then survivors. Unless they are oblivious to this they can keep ahead of you.
And even if they don't, you slow down so much that the point of the bodyblock was achieved anyway
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I have better fix, if they try to bodyblocking even tho I am trying to chase other survivor, then I will wait 12 seconds...
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Oh right, because grabs work so well... It's not like they can just spam it and server will force you to m1 as soon your grab gets denied.
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They mean that survivors dont need that much base information. Which is strange if you consider discord swf exists.
Yea ping wheel with some basic info would be nice
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Yeah, I think there need to be some type of communication, so soloQ is not painful.
I really don't wanna voice, or even normal chat. Survivors would waste so much time writing #########...
Just chat wheel with basic actions you can do would be enough imo.
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Stalking does make you slower than survivors, not to mention that ghostface can be revealed to stop his ability to stalk. You aren't meant to stalk forever. What you do is stalk for a split second so that your model merges with the survivor. And then you stop stalking, because the killer model takes priority over the survivor model it pushes them out of your way. If you've done this bypass correctly you will end up on the other side of the survivor, leaving behind the body block.
I agree, grabs should be validated properly instead of that garbage bullshit of just automatically hitting if it gets rejected.
I wouldn't mind a ping chatwheel system which some MOBAs seem to have.
Thats cool and all, but I already shot down someone saying lethal pursuer should be basekit. Aura reading is too strong, but making regression equal to ruin? Thats not really as big of a deal. I'm kinda curious how this got derailed into a survivor thread when I was talking specifically about killer perks to begin with.
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Most funny thing is that hit is not guaranteed, you can get denied grab and miss...
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Thats not even the worst offender I've personally had. I've been rejected, had the hit, and then got auto aimed to a different survivor. (basement hooks).
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What could be worst?
Denied grab into dead hard validation :D
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I hope you joke, DS its just an unbalanced perks, if it became twice Killers would stop definitely to play.
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Why are you taking this singular suggestion out of context, and acting as if BenihimeWrath didn't also make this post claiming that Corrupt Intervention and Ruin should be basekit?
Edit: [Rant Redacted]
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Well its not really imbalanced, especially if you consider that if it becomes base kit that means every killer KNOWS that downed, unhooked survivor has DS and can therefore play accordingly. At the moment its just a guessing game whether or not a survivor has DS, similar to how survivors disliked Spirit's standstill mindgame.
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Okay but what if you do that and the result is the person just stops responding because they don't like that they can't argue it. I said that ds would just become a bodyblock perk and the answer was "well make Borrowed Timen unable to be used with bodyblocking, or just play Myers and Ghostface."
When I and another person argued those aren't answers.... dead silence.
That's my pet peeve as it were. I either get repeated replies that have nothing to do with what I said or sandbagged.
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I said this because someone that has a fresh DS would have BT because they were just unhooked. Now if you would prefer that an unhooked survivor loses collision PERIOD, then I could agree with that. There was a bug awhile ago where the unhooking survivor merged hitboxes with the hooked so it was impossible to get a hit on the unhook because it would just get eaten by the hooked survivor.
Furthermore I responded to the ghostface/myers criticism by saying I would be open to more discussion for events that cause loss of collision to prevent body blocking from becoming a problem, but specifically suggested those killers because their mechanics counter the mechanic (body blocking) that you brought up.
It would behoove you to both read and increase your context clue dissection.
Post edited by BenihimeWrath on0 -
I wasn't claiming that people can't have debate. Of course you can debate.
But Pulsar_Pain's response (and the typical response of many others on this forum) is not how you debate. They're laughing at OP right now for ever considering the idea, and have posted in this thread just to mic-drop a one-liner.
It seems Benihime has already settled on a solution to body blocking, so they've provided you with a way to solve your problem. I don't agree with Benihime's solution (I don't actually think body blocking is an inherent problem), but if you disagree with Benihime it becomes your responsibility to challenge a solution they seem content with.
Pulsar wasn't adding to the conversation. Benihime was. Thats the difference.
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I never brought up collision, I said all DS would be used for is to bodyblock, and it would be because it is now. DS lasts longer than Borrowed Time afterall. I never argued removing collision.
If you had actually responded to me without me having to make a new post I would have argued at that point why not just have the survivor run off playing the sonic invincibility music instead of either of your suggestions. It'd be better. Hell just have the survivor teleport away. Still better than double ds, but that would have required you replying.
You seem to have missed my point. I don't care what pulsar said. I pointed out op refused to directly make an argument, and is now hilariously try to argue points I never made but other people did, and it's apperently my fault because I'm supposed to be constantly checking this one thread to see if they indirectly addressed something I said.
Your argument is "BUT PULSAR SAID THIS!"
I dont care what pulsar said. I care what op did, and it doesn't help your point.
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Why are you trying to instigate?
You commented on my response to Pulsar. If I wanted to talk to you, I would have commented on your issues with body blocking, seeing as I have my own point of view.
You addressed me, in my response to Pulsar. Of course I'm going to tailor my response around the context of a conversation I was trying to have with anyone other than yourself. You can't springboard off my conversation and then back peddle out of that conversation to try and make me look stupid.
You played yourself. Good day.
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Corrupt and Ruin baseline. I haven't heard a joke like this in a while.
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Dude, now come now if you consider the worst possible situation even a single DS can carry the game, even if killer its a Pro with S tier perks because this game its basic unbalanced, i think there are other problem to resolve.
Base kit its a good idea but before it many perks need nerfs and other game mecanics too.
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Because you went off on a generalized comment concerning the entire forum while trying to defend one person. Never tried to make you look stupid.
Honestly, have a good day.
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Simple, because in that case the game would be more unbalanced that what already is, Ruin and Corrupt are not comparable to DS, Ruin become cleansed after one minute of game and survs camping Corrupt; DS, instead, its a free second chance perk that can carry easy the game and you can't lose it as Ruin and Corrupt, in some case camping is necessary for change the game situation, and who complains about camping its because never has play Killer at high rank.
Repeat, base kit its a good idea, but first game must be balanced.
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Look at the comment two above the one I'm responding to. Case in point.
I removed that rant 30s after I posted it, because I recognized that it was tangent to the current discussion. Alas, the problem is so prevalent I think it may deserve the attention I was trying to give it.
I'd hardly say I was defending the OP, moreso I was pointing out how they're willing to facilitate a discussion rather than participate in childish discourse. Whether or not they feel obligated to respond to your own woes is not something I care to address, as it is an entirely seperate argument from the one I was originally making.
Edit: For the record, you're not a part of the problem. I can tell you're genuinely interested in discussion. So I respect you for that.
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I actually agree with most of what has been said in this thread...
For example, I also agree that Survivors should have DS / BT basekit, as a Killer I already play as if I was expecting DS/BT on every Survivor because you just don't know for sure, so I never swing at Survivors that just got unhooked and I always chase the Unhooker.. so honestly for me personally it wouldn't even make any difference at all because I just assume every Survivor is running it whether they are or not, and I think that's fine.
But as a Killer I do think we need stronger regression so that Kicking a Gen is actually worth it, first and foremost, cause as of now it's usually a complete waste of time - and I also believe that the early game is way too unfair for most Killers and while I don't think that anything like Lethal Pursuer should be basekit, something more similar to Corrupt Intervention honestly should be!
So yeah, both sides could benefit from some basekit perks for sure that would allow players to have more fun bringing other builds and perks to the match without having to rely so heavily on the few that make such a huge difference.
On a side note - I actually don't play with DS/BT on Survivor usually (unless I wanna go super sweat mode but its not that fun to play) and I also don't use Ruin or Corrupted on Killer lol.
I do fine without using these perks, but it doesn't mean that I don't think they should be added to the base kit for quality of life improvements to the game.
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The OP never went into detail, but I believe they want Ruin basekit as in "not a hex that can be cleansed."
I'm speaking for myself when I say, I think a 100% or maybe 150% regression when not working on a gen is worth testing as basekit. I don't know if the OP thinks 200% regression basekit is balanced, but I certainly think its too strong.
Personally, if 150% or 200% Ruin Regression was basekit and not a breakable hex totem, I think it would surpass current DS in strength. I've played too many games that end with 4 or 5 gens remaining and Ruin still active to believe otherwise. Therefore, a buff to DS and BT would feel appropriate.
Just my two cents
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Gens should absolutely regress when they're blocked.
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you do realize ds and bt are absolutely useless if you always go for anyone but the unhooked person, right? get over it.
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"DS will be used for body blocking"
"Okay, so what if survivors lose collision so they can't body block you when they have DS"
"I NEVER MENTIONED COLLISION."
Good argument. But can't have it both ways, you can't say "Survivors can body block, but for a cost" and then turn around say body blocking would become a problem. The cost of a survivor body blocking with DS is they get downed and slugged for 60 seconds to bypass DS. And because you, as a killer, know EVERY survivor has a DS EVERY TIME they get unhooked, you know how to play accordingly. And if you say they'll use the free BT/DS to body block and still not go down, please refer to my response where survivors with BT lose collision.
Also, I did respond to you, I just didn't link you in the post where I did because I used someones more recent reply which covered the same stuff. My bad I suppose.
I edited the main post to clarify, but yes I was suggesting that ruin regression be base line only but a killer physically still has to go damage the generator unless they have a perk like jolt, eruption, or pain resonance that starts regression remotely. Where the only difference with the hex is that the hex does it automatically. Ultimately the change is meant to have more back and forth possible between survivors and killers over the main objective. Without straight up making the generators a grueling, long slog, and rewarding killers more appropriately for generating pressure. Currently you strictly need a gen regression perk for anything meaningful, which results in a system that its always the wrong decision to damage a generator without them. A poorly designed system indeed.
I'm not considering the worst possible situation, because such a situation is an outlier and not indicative of normal or average gameplay. To me, worst case scenario is that a few more slugs with DS make it out the exit gate, but if you aren't killing people before the gates are open thats sort of on you making poor macro decisions for the entire game up until then and thats okay that just means there are things to get better at.
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Roger that. I've heard a few similar proposals with regards to basekit Ruin regression, so I didn't want to make too many assumptions about where you stood on the matter.
I really wish BHVR felt more comfortable running weekend tests that explored alternate mechanics. Make an alternate game mode, name it an LTM--available for weekend only--and see what people have to say about it. Worst that happens is people don't enjoy it, so they take it out of rotation and keep the popular LTMs on loop.
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