Eyrie of Crows Basement
I have played this map a bit, there are issues here and there that I would like to see different as many other players. But if there is one thing that I have noted, is how extremely powerful the basement in the main building is.
Like, even The Game recieved 2 pallets to compensate with the strength of it's basement. Even Midwich has at least 1 pallet right above the staircase, and once the pallets are used, those basements are effectively a free kill or consistent hookswaps for the killer. Then came RPD with an even stronger basement(longer stairwell, pallet being further away).
But Eyrie of Crows? Nothing. No pallets nearby enough to use, and the only window nearby isnt even a window you can fast vault. Even if you run upstairs, which is where the nearest pallet is, even T1 Myers can catch up before a survivor can reach that. Let alone what Bubba can do.
The existance of current Bubba and Eyrie of Crows' basement should never have been a thing.
Comments
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The basement SHOULD be powerful. Come on; it's the only no-sabo hooks in the game. It's clearly the Killer's lair.
Why does anything Killer-sided need to be 'fair' (Read: Survivor-sided) instead?
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that building is an infinite if the walls isn't broken...
You should never really go down in the basement if you know its a bubba...
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Then break the walls. Not that hard.
And that's not a solution either. A survivor being hooked once should never mean they are dead. With Bubba, this is still the case.
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Way to jump to conclusions. That's like saying "why should anything survivor sided be fair? Why did DS need to be fair(read: killer-sided)"
Do you think DS is killer sided now? It's been made more fair, with your logic that must mean it's killer sided now, right?
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Way to strawman.
I'm just asking why ONE spot favoring Killers needs a nerf, moreso when it's the basement; the place of a Killer's power.
But basically anything even slightly Killer-favored has someone asking for it to be changed.
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What strawman? I literally said this basement's power is too extreme. When in terms of the scale of survivor-sided and killer-sided, it tips the scale to be extremely killersided no matter what survivors throw at it. That's the definition of busted.
This isnt slightly killer favored. Basements in general are slightly favored, RPD's basement is already on a scale of barely being able to overcome with the right playstyle or the killer outright ignoring the fact someone got unhooked in the basement. Eyrie of Crows is even stronger than that.
All I have been saying is to lower Eyrie of Crows to at least RPD levels of basement strengths.
Because you know what else Eyrie of Crows has that favors killers? An open mid-way, very easily spottable survivors across the map, being able to see if a gen has been progressed or not from almost the opposite side of the map. Not even talking about the fact that I did state: "there are issues here and there that I would like to see different as many other players". Issues including both on the killer and survivor side. But those issues pale in comparison to the basement there. Even if a double god pallet set-up spawns, leading right into the window upstairs, that is still much less problematic to killers than that basement is to survivors.
I could make an entire list of things that are wrong with maps, both on killer and survivor side, like how the totem on top of the library is by far the strongest totem ever created and should not spawn if any boon enters the game. Just because I mention 1 thing that's extremely unfair(yes, extremely, not "slightly", not "barely", e x t r e m e l y) with a new map, doesnt mean I want to neuter killers.
You created that strawman instantly, which is why I called you out. I literally copied what you said, reversed the roles and you call that a strawman. That's not what a strawman is. I just used your own logic against you to show how flawed it is.
It's just Eyrie of Crows' main building basement that needs a slight nerf. Like a door opening with a pallet so it's escapable once the right play has been made, or a window straight ahead with the breakable door moved to that side to not make the window a god window. That's all that is needed. THAT is a fair basement. Still the strongest part of the map for the killer, but still escapable with the right play. Eyrie of Crows is not escapable, even with the right play, especially not against a proxy-camping Bubba.
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But why do killers have to break pre-dropped pallets from the start just so survivors don't have a god loop? Why can't a main building just be balanced at base?
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Wait, that map has a basement in the main building? Where on earth is the entrance located?
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I've never seen the basement on crows or RPD so I can't comment much on their strength but it should be the strongest place on the map for killers.
& to be fair if the killer is that close to the basement or inside it odds are on most maps you are getting killed regardless as the killer has clearly decided that's it your out.
I realise there is more chance of getting out on some maps than others but again for the killer to be close enough to ensure you die the majority of the time you will die
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That's the same way with hag.. Billy.. Mikey. GF. Nurse, twins. and a few others...
Don't just Base it off of Bubba alone, think about the other killers and how it would affect them aswel,
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Not exactly on topic, but yes, the basement should be the killers domain. Yet it has 4 lockers, and if it spawns in the killer shack, one of the absolute strongest loops in the entire game.
I never understood why he killer shack has to be the survivors playground and recreational facility, but I guess it was done, to increase interaction and let the survs step foot into it?
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I think part of the balance is meant to be how difficult it is to get to. Eyrie's main building is a nightmare to hook survivors near, as the wiggling has a good chance of knocking you off the narrow upper floors and staircases, and the abundance of breakable walls and random objects certainly doesn't make it any easier. It's also mostly a hook deadzone because of the breakable walls and the upper floor hook. The basement is also located underneath a staircase with both doorways into the main building being quite far from it.
It's like the RPD and Game basements where they are strong, but they're so difficult to hook a survivor within in the first place that this rarely becomes an issue. When have you actually seen a basement play on RPD? It just doesn't happen. You're not realistically hooking somebody in there, and it goes similarly for either main building hook in the Eyrie of Crows.
Also the map has way too many interconnected pallets and loops in the first place, please don't add more.
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I tried about 3 times to hook someone in RPD. I couldn't find the entrance and they all wriggled off, so I stopped trying :)
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Why on earth is a basement hook a guaranteed win, unless you have no brain cells?
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Pleas elaborate, I still don't get it. Do you camp the basement? And how does this give an automatic 4K? I am intrigued, because it doesn't work that way for me. Time to activate those dormant brain cells, I guess.
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Yeah, but unless you are proxy camping the stairs, its just as with every other hook: you can camp it, but then the gens will just fly around your ears. But I guess we have different playstyles and experiences.
When I hook in the basement, its usually to scare the survivors and waste a bit of their time because they cautiously sneak up to the stairs, then make a run for it.
But without some camping involved I fail to see how its an automatic win, unless you count a 1K game as a win.
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You realize that any time basement spawns in the main building that theirs 2 windows on that wall right one on the right side of the door and one on the left directly above the basement you can slow vault and end up straight in the basement
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I think it depends. A strong basement is perfectly fair on survivor sided maps; the haddonfield basement is the main reason I dont DC on that level
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Well, while that might be true, I still fail to see your point, I mean, I see survivors all the time around the map, yet this doesn't guarantee me a win :P
I know that I am a bit silly here, but still, I think that the Ormond main building is pretty strong and even got some god pallets that you have to remove in order to proceed.
So we agree to disagree. Still, that some other users here challenged your statement seems to indicate that your view on the Ormond basement isn't some universally accepted truth.
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Can you block the stairway into the basement in the main building of the crow map? If you can then I'd say it's too powerful. But if survivors can still slip by then I think it's fair. The basement is strong but it's offset by the fact that the main building is pretty powerful for survivors too so it's fair in a way.
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At least that very last part I can wholeheartedly agree with you :>
I feel that the basement in the main building is always stronger then shack because it frankly is there were the most action takes place, giving you more opportunities to catch survivors, without punishing you for being totally out of place.
Also, the killer shack is one of the strongest loops for survivors and It's not worth it with most killers to commit to a chase there. So maybe those Viggos blueprints are useful, after all.
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Something about the word "lair" and my experience with D&D makes me wish DBD expanded upon the basement concept and created an entire subterranean network on every map that has multiple gens (one of which needs to be completed) and grants the killer various boosts or lair actions.
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That sounds pretty cool.
And I still think that it's a squandered opportunity to not personalize the basement for each killer.
I lmow, I know, some peeps think that it will give the survivors, who sneak into it, some kind of advantage, knowing who they are up against, but most of the time the killer will initiate their first chase within the first 40s of the game anyways.
For the stealthkillers you could also make it so that they get a random other killers basement, with one hidden hint, like Ghostface's mask on one of the skulls, or whatever.
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It always amused me that 'Hooks were changed so Survivors would not know who they were up against' and then; Freddy. The SECOND you see your sleep meter; you know.
Billy & Bubba; you hear that chainsaw, and you know.
Wraith; you hear the ding-ding, and you know.
Demogorgon; the second he teleports; you know.
Spirit; you can hear her vape.
Huntress; lullaby.
Nurse; you can hear the teleport.
I guess the rest can be a surprise. Except the second 1 person in an SWF knows; the hive-mind all know. SO changing the hooks for a point that basically became void within the year, IIRC, was silly as heck.
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In my opinion Eyrie of Crows got many big problems (map size, pallet spawn etc.) but the basement isnt one of them. And it doesnt matter which basement you are in if it is a bubba you have no chance of escaping it. And the mainbuilding itself is strong as well with 3 windows and 2 pallets and most of the time a totem upstairs which is broken for boons. 🤔
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because it turns a god-loop for survivors, into a god-loop for killers. That IS balanced. It spends 2 seconds of killer time to save a million seconds later in the game. Otherwise you'd need a shitton of unsafe pallets that's gonna cost more time, but creates a similar balanced loop.
Breakable doors are a necessary evil when it comes to balancing length of chases. If you were to replace the breakable door+window with a pallet instead, you would need to add another pallet nearby just for the sake of balancing the lower area. Let alone that they are not pre-dropped pallets at all, survivors cant vault through them and quite a lot of breakable doors actually open up a shortcut in general, rather than breaking a strong loop.
Main buildings are very hard to balance. It needs to be a strong tile for survivors, especially since basement can spawn there. But it shouldnt be impossible for killers either. This is the standard that main buildings have set across all maps. Right now, I actually dont think the main building in Eyrie of Crows is even close to that standard. Sure, the top floor is very powerful, but mainly a 1 time use against most killers. Because the fastest way down is to drop down, which gives quite a lot of stagger that killers dont have. While the bottom floor only has 2 god windows that can be pre-destroyed before anyone even has the chance to use them. Making it one of the weakest, if not THE weakest main building survivors have access to. Having the strongest basement spawn in the weakest main building isnt exactly balanced.
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Its not just the strongest place, its by far the strongest basement in the entire game. Nothing can compete with it. Let alone that the main building is quite weak by main building standards. 2 god pallets on the second floor if you're lucky, but you lose time if you drop down, and if you go by the stairs killers can drop down to save time. 1 god window, which is the only reason for survivors to even go upstairs, but it's a one time use since killers will instantly break that wall the moment the chase leads there. And if they are smart, they will head to the door instantly, meaning survivors HAVE to drop down before the killer breaks the wall, giving them stagger and the killer being right behind them.
Then the downstairs area, 2 god windows with breakable doors right next to them, but arent really aligned with anything from the inside, making them effectively a one-time use at best. No pallets, no clever pathing, nothing.
If you dont hold W on Eyrie of Crows, you lose the chase very quickly. If the map was smaller, I would actually call it one of the most killer sided maps in the game. It's size is pretty much the only reason why the map is (in my opinion) survivor sided.
As for the killer to be close enough to ensure you die, yeah, but in pretty much all basements, that means being actually nearby the staircase as survivors could otherwise sneak in. On this map, there is no sneaking in. The killer could be 20 meters away and still see scratchmarks, 20 meters is basically being an entire midwich hallway away. But even Midwich has a pallet there that can help you out.
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Yeah, it wouldnt. You can run in with 2 people against Hag, you can bodyblock with BT against Billy and Mikey. You can hooktrade with any other camping killers. You cannot rescue someone from the basement when Bubba is within walking distance. That's a problem. He's literally the odd one out here. Back in the day, it was fine since he had bad mobility and quite a weak ability. Now it's a bit problematic.
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Main buildings shouldn't be survivor sided, they should be neutral. Breaking breakable walls only takes 2 seconds, but it costs more time than that realistically. If you're chasing a survivor and you have to break it, they get a huge lead or you can just leave, but that's still a lose-lose. Since you were chasing that survivor, 1-2 gens got halfway or done. This talk of killer-sided god loops I don't get. If it's a loop, it's survivor sided.
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Eyrie has 5 doorways, 3 being breakable with 1 of them being right next to the basement, let alone that hooks spawn nearby the corners no matter what. Once you are even close to one of the doorways, its only an additional 24 meters to the basement. Wiggling off takes 16 seconds at the very least, meaning a killer can walk 50 meters total(including the distance you sway left and right, so in your normal game this means you can walk about 42 meters). Its really quite easy to get someone into the basement of the main building, and the main building is far too weak, it's a 1 time use godloop that becomes the biggest deadzone in the map afterwards.
And yeah, basement plays on RPD dont really work, since hallways and doorways make it much harder to actually reach the basements, Eyrie is an open path. The main building hooks are fine(even the strongest 2 hooks that can spawn on the second floor), the basement is not.
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I would gladly invite you to try and save someone from the basement when a Bubba is patrolling gens nearby. The upstairs totem is actually quite fine, the one OP spot is still easier to reach. The main building is by far the weakest main building in the game. It's only strong assuming you never break the doors. Once you break 3 doors, it's legit a loop that consistently loses you distance no matter how you run it. Where normally main buildings can increase your distance if you run it exactly the right way/trick the killer into thinking you ran somewhere else. Cant do that with Eyrie of Crows.
"And it doesnt matter which basement you are in if it is a bubba you have no chance of escaping it."
With the MMR being based on escapes now, this is a sentence that shouldnt exist in DBD.
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No, looping tiles should be neutral, main building should be survivor sided(thats literally every main building in existance) allowing for basements to be killer sided. The whole reason main buildings NEED to be survivor sided, is so that the basement can be killer sided. If a killer basement could spawn in the middle of a Jungle Gym, it's easier to defend than when a basement spawns into a T&L. That's the whole reason why killer shack is quite a survivor sided loop.
"This talk of killer-sided god loops I don't get. If it's a loop, it's survivor sided."
Nope, a killer-sided loop is a loop that loses you time as a survivor, where holding W would take longer. Vaulting a window takes a longer time than running around that same window in Eyrie of Crows. Going upstairs means you need to drop down or go down the stairs at some point. Both are a net-loss for survivors as the killer can easily cut you off by dropping down on you at the stairs, or dropping down and having 0 stagger while you still are slowed by stagger.
Neutral loops would mean it would on average equal holding W in terms of time, which simply isnt true. Main buildings are always stronger than Jungle Gyms, which is why main buildings tend to recieve breakable walls that you can breakdown before any chase happens.
"Breaking breakable walls only takes 2 seconds, but it costs more time than that realistically. If you're chasing a survivor and you have to break it, they get a huge lead or you can just leave, but that's still a lose-lose."
Then you're not using breakable walls in your favor at all. You're treating them like they are pallets that need to be removed once a survivor has been there. But that's exactly why breakable walls are a necessary evil. You can simply patrol gens and break the necessary ones open, during a time where survivors are either all at 1 single gen at which point, it's worth breaking down walls early on certain maps, or they spread out over multiple gens, costing them time to run there, allowing you to have a bigger time window to break some necessary walls.
Seriously, go try the following thing out: Play 10 games on Eyrie and break down the walls early on, then play 10 games on Eyrie and break the walls down once it's necessary for the chase. You'll see how big of a difference in time that is.
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So getting a basement should mean main needs to be stronger.. AS IF,
There're Many maps that don't have alot of control when it's basement, I.E Azarov's Resting Place, Both basements are a screw you to survivor if bubba gets one down there, Not complaining bout that,
Oh Thompson House... Main doesn't really have anything to let you escape, in-fact it's tight / close quarters...Still great for bubba,
There are Many more maps that has a WORSER basement trap than The new map... literally,
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But this is the thing with bubba and not the fault of any basement.
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It's a weird map.
- Several god pallets but a strong basement and 1 strong hook.
- 2 possible deadzones where a single sabo can make a survivor completely unhookable without Agitation or similar.
- Central structure is probably a touch too strong, and it's a huge time commitment to pursue survivors upstairs, but this can also be a trap for new survivors as once the pallet is gone, it's almost a dead end.
- Moving the god pallet from the open upstairs path to the outer balcony actually made it stronger.
- Removing a pallet or two from the walled structures outside would help a lot. These are a bit too strong and densely situated for such an enormous map.
- When certain tiles spawn close to each other, the map practically plays itself if you hold 'W'.
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I mean, I've done very similar things with Clown and Legion. It's definitely the basement.
That basement is so powerful that Basement Bubba can patrol 4 gens that spawn nearby and still arrive in time before survivors can place a wall, window or pallet between them.
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Yeah, that is literally the only way survivors can win on this map, they are forced to hold W away from the main building if they can be downed. And holding W is so powerful on that map, it's not even fun. I have only had somewhat fun as a survivor if the basement spawned in the killer shack. I've only had somewhat fun as a killer if I ignored early chases to break the 2 walls on the bottom floor as it was a gamble for survivors to reach it or not reach it in chase.
It's a very competitively designed map. Making it a very boring map.
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The difference is that in those basements, Bubba himself is the issue. At least the argument there can be made that survivors can finish all gens before Bubba gets 1 kill.
And Thompson house has 3 exits, 2 with a nearby pallet right next to the basement. Heck, there is a reachable window that buys you quite a lot of time that's always a fast vault window. Eyrie does not have any exit nearby and the nearest thing is a med-vault window. The nearest pallet is out of reach.
So no, you're objectively wrong, and I can prove it if necessary.
None of those maps allow Bubba to patrol gens nearby while still having enough time to return to the basement to down 2 people. Eyrie gives Bubba 4 gens that he can patrol and still get back quick enough to down 2 people.
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Thompson house can force a three gen....
One in the slight mid of cornfields, One on top of the house and one on the side of the house..
Even by the time they come back up, bubba can still be there and get a double down easily enough..
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This post is so off base. Eyrie of crows is a severely survivor sided map. The map is huge, meaning it is impossible for the killer to control, and it it is loaded with safe pallets along the perimeter, not to mention the main building itself which has god loops and infinites. Breakable walls favor the survivor since it creates an infinite or forces the killer to spend time to they don’t have to break it. You are bad at the game if you think that the basement somehow tips it toward the killer.
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