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I do not underastand balancing around 2K/2E

Smuk
Smuk Member Posts: 735

I honestly with this balancing do not underastand how much effort, stress, sweating or any other term is BHVR expecting from players to invest into the match - especially with the MMR.

As if we look at “equal” matches with state of the art plays on both sides, the killer has to really sweat a lot to achieve the balanced 2K/2E.

I am not saying that playing survivor does not take any sweat or pressure. It does, you can really have bad luck on skill checks where you regress more then progress, you do have to be able to held chases for more then 10secs, saves can be cruical etc.

But survivor is much more “chilled” role as the pressure has its peak moments in specific scenarios and once you are hooked or escaped the chase, your stress level goes back to normal. But “100 people 100 miracles” I do believe there are alot of veterans, who dont even flinch while being chased.

Kinda think this is the main reason, why a lot of players decide to take a break from rageus quitus and join the other side.

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Comments

  • Smuk
    Smuk Member Posts: 735

    Firstly, you have made a wrong argument regarding 4K, as I opened discussion around 2K/2E.

    But why wouldnt a killer enter with mindset of scoring 4K as compared to SWF to 4E (as they care more for friends rather then soloQ). Human is driven by nature to have goals and expectations - real or virtual life

    I dont know which killer would be thinking as “Okay, I will run few miles across map, destroy 20 pallets, cut somebody and

    maybe get a hook. - Best game ever.

    As it seems to be legacy of BHVR. One side start perma slack = nerfs to the other side.

    As apperantly the effort of killer to achieve balanced outcome of the game is always high - sbmm included.

  • AnxiousRiddle
    AnxiousRiddle Member Posts: 14

    Depends. I don't care how many people escape, I just want good chases. If I am actively doing nothing but holding W the entire time or searching for an urban evading claudette, that's just not fun in any context, whether they get out or not.

  • Smuk
    Smuk Member Posts: 735
    edited December 2021

    It is exactly this.

    Comparion of sweatiness to achieve BHVR vision of the balanced matches.

    I am not frustrated or being tilted when 3 gens are equal to 1-2 hook. Or if I displease an entity.

    I am also not enjoying matches where as survivor where 5 gens are done before I even find out which killer is.

    So since mmr is evaluated on Kills and Escapes. Which brackets you in two types of boring matches. Easy 4K or easy 4E


    The more killers will play with cool mood attitude, the numbers will desire for new wave of buffs and nerfs. And here we are looping in limbo.

    But the core of dbd will never be changed.

  • Labrac
    Labrac Applicant Posts: 1,285

    Basically this. I don't have a problem losing because the survivors actually outplayed me, but losing because maps are still the size of Africa or because survivors can heal in 4 seconds with COH feels dumb. The effort/reward ratio of survivor right now is dumb compared to killer.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    No, my point was what causes the stress reaction?

    And, indeed is is caused by our own expectations? And a failure to meet them.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    So, are you saying the stress comes from battling sweat squads game after game?

    And that playing chill will lower your MMR as to make it too easy?

    I certainly understand how this constant sweating would become tiresome. I just don't see a way to balance this and not kill casual solo q in the process.

    I am just curious as to why people get stressed from a game and then continue to play it.

    And what drives the stress reaction?

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    That's fair. But, in a way, it's like going to a casino. I know the odds are against me, and win or lose, I have fun.

    When the fun becomes a stressor, isn't it time to find another hobby?

  • RakimSockem
    RakimSockem Member Posts: 1,982
    edited December 2021

    I'm sorry, but you lost me at "killers have to sweat for a 2k"

    What? if you have to sweat for 2 kills, there's no way around saying that you're just REALLY bad at the game. Like really really bad. Playing at my worst and making multiple mistakes, I still leave a game with 2 kills

    The only other scenario is that you got put against a team of survivors that are way above your skill level as killer which is totally possible because the MMR system is trash

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    I agree with this, on both sides.

    I enjoy the chase. But admittedly, I was a cutthroat killer for years before playing survivor.

    And over time, I have evolved into a journey over the destination gamer.

    I remember stressing over the game in my first couple years. But, for me, it was anticipating not being competitive and getting my 4k that caused that reaction. After playing some great survivors.

    I am curious what causes it in others .

    And if a change in mindset would allievate it.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    Someone told this to me, and I realized why 2K 2E isnt ideal with the game design.

    To achieve 2E, thats mean 5 Gens should be done in every single match. Beside, achieve 2K is super easy with Camping into Noed...

    I feel it should be something like the more Survivors die, the less Gen remaining survivors have to repair. Something like 4 alive requires 6 Gen, 3 alive require 5 Gen, 2 alive require 4 Gen. Which mean if 4 Gen done and 2nd survivor dies, Gates are powered.

  • Smuk
    Smuk Member Posts: 735
    edited December 2021

    There are many possibilities.

    I can be determined and approach you with the same tone. Please hush baby killer, I am higher mmr than you are. So I am obviously encountering harder teams then you are. Now go play fortnite

    For your clarification, I do not tunnel nor camp. I dont focus on that clicky clicky guy who wants me to dance around killer shack or anything else, to redirect my focus from gens. I am more or less doing 3-4K. But then there are those matches where it takes a lot of effort regarding maps/mechanics to get the upper hand

    I have no regards turning this discussion into subjective manner of who has what MMR. Maybe I am in top tier or average joe. Until BHVR does not share details on where we are at.

    You cannot nor should judge players skill according to some objectively opened thread

  • Tiufal
    Tiufal Member Posts: 1,252

    Getting a 2k doesnt need any sweat.

  • Smuk
    Smuk Member Posts: 735

    I assume you aswell have reached max mmr and can confirm this without any further discussion?

  • WishIcouldmain
    WishIcouldmain Member Posts: 4,082

    Honestly they should just focus on making the game enjoyable

  • cantelope
    cantelope Applicant Posts: 343

    Bordem can cause it is well.

    Contrary to popular belief lots of killers love chases, just intresting ones. When you get survivors who just shift w to pallet and sit still because you can't m1 them at range it gets extremely boring.

    When all a survivor wants to do is run from pallet to pallet so they can sit still and hope you eat it you switch targets.

    When you get four survivors all with second chance perks to make these stand still or circle a pallet forever into circle pallet forever x4 x4 it's just frustrating and boring.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    First of remember that they want to balance around an avarage of 2k/2e

    A 4k/0e , 0k/4e , 3k/1e and 1k/3e still is an avarage of 2k/2e without it ever actually being the outcome of 2k/2e

    The reasoning behind 2k/2e i believe is cause dbd is a game of scales.

    At the start of the match the scales are completly in the survivors favour. All the pallets are on the map and everyone can work on generators.

    The longer the match goes the more the scales start tipping towards the killer. Pallets get used, less gens to patrol, survivors start getting hooked or having to unhook so they can't progress their objective, etc etc...

    Untill there is a turning point where the scales start swinging in the killers favour and at that point it's really hard for the survivors to swing it back.

    That's why there are so many games where survivors can do 3 gens in less then 2 minutes only to all be dead by minute 10 with only a single gen done in those 8 minutes after the first 3

    Or why a genrush game is so crushing when a killer didn't have the time or failed to tip the scales in some way.

    Balancing around the avarage of a 2k/2e is trying to make games last to around that tipping point. So that when that happens on avarage the survivors are close to powering the gates

    Atleast i think that's the theory behind it

  • Tiufal
    Tiufal Member Posts: 1,252

    I assume noone here on this forum even knows which MMR he/she is at. Also makes no difference.

  • themoobs1984
    themoobs1984 Member Posts: 619
    edited December 2021

    I'm at the why even bother point myself rn. Been playing mostly survivor. Maybe 4 or 5 killer matches a day. It's too much work and bs to even get 2 kills. The pallets, looping over and over, the shack, and all the bad manners have made it not worth it anymore. Chasing someone around a shack and in and out of windows constantly for two years has worn me out. There's zero fear for survivor play. It's all gone.

  • Myla
    Myla Member Posts: 1,551

    I mean how can people enjoy losing when more than half of the objectives is done on the first chase or it's just realistically not feasible to hit each survivor three times(Deadhard) + hooks every match.

  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 12,871
    edited December 2021

    IMO, that happens when a PvP game does not bother to establish win conditions. It then falls upon the players to decide upon themselves what their goals are. Because there is no central win condition to focus around, it then becomes impossible to please all the players and their various personal standards that they had to set for themselves, which results in a number of those players becoming frustrated/stressed.

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    I don't get it either as it kind of flies in the face of the game's theme.

    We have an asymmetric survival horror based on classic slasher films where survivors run from a big scary killer.

    Oh but its balanced around a 50/50 escape chance and lots of ways to make sure you don't die early because the dummy spit crowd want a sense of fair play. Ugh.

    I want the scary chase ending unpredictable might kill you in 2 mins killer mechanics that really made you sweat and fearful as survivor back.

  • Veinslay
    Veinslay Member Posts: 1,959

    It should be balanced towards a 75% kill rate, with one survivor escaping on average

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    Thanks for the well stated reply.

    I know we are all different, I am always curious as to why people would continue to play a game , or anything for that matter, as recreation, that causes stress.

    Personally I have felt that way in the past on this game, but it always correlated with my success. Then after years, changing to a more passive mindset has eliminated that feeling.

    Thanks for the perspective!

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    Is this sarcasm?

    Because no one wants to play a game where you lose 75% of the time.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    I can certainly agree with you. When I started playing and getting "not bad" I always wanted a 4k. That was my win condition, but that mindset added to the frustration and cause me to enjoy the game less.

    I always enjoy hearing others opinions on this topic!!

  • cantelope
    cantelope Applicant Posts: 343

    What's intresting about your reply is simply the frequency in which killer is told they shouldn't care to get even 1k and that they should just have fun. This doesnt mean you personally say it but this contradiction by the herd, not the individual, is what causes so many issues with communication.

    Losing, as it is defined by the speaker, is never fun. But the listener winning, as defined by the speaker, should always be second to the speaker having a good time. Otherwise listener is selfish.

    This is pretty much.... 4/5 of the arguments about this game. Ever. It can make things stressful.

  • VikingDragonXii
    VikingDragonXii Member Posts: 2,885

    The thing is face camp is a issue but proxy camping or getting proxy camped is not, that is perfectly fine. A Hag laying a trap and teleporting back or a Killer in general that begins to leave but turns to look back and sees a survivor running to the hook and decides to head back to stop it.

    Is it the Killers fault for using their power to quickly get back to the Hook or their fault for the Hooked Survivors teammate not waiting till the Killer is out of sight before getting that rescue.....no.

    But what is Proxy Tunneling? Do you mean you use your Borrowed Time you received to body block instead of escaping but only to get the Killers attention and get downed again?

  • Adjatha
    Adjatha Member Posts: 1,814

    The 2 Escape design philosophy means that the Devs WANT all five gens to be finished every single game. Which means that killers are not supposed to get a kill until at least most of the gens are finished, then maybe the second kill in the end game mad dash for the gates.

    So: 1 survivor death over the course of 5 gens and 1 right at the very end.

    That sounds like an atrocious goal to have, but it sure explains why gen speeds are as fast as they are, and why the proliferation of second chance perks has gone on for so long.

  • Suspecm
    Suspecm Member Posts: 6

    Wait, you guys aren't letting the last guy win because it's funny?

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    2K/2E being balanced in an asymmetric survival horror is weird though.

    There is this prevailing opinion that survivors dying is unfun but killers have to settle for 4 BBQ stacks as a form of quasi win condition because its rude or mean to kill anyone.

    There are a lot of posts on this forum by even BHVR reps saying they just aim for 4 BBQ stacks as their win condition, why even have the kill mechanic then? Just let everyone respawn and farm points and then everyone can escape. Its the worst kind of everybody gets a trophy day mentality.

    75% kill rate would be on target for the game's theme. I'd love to have a real sense of danger when playing survivor as only one of us is likely to get out alive. Just like the slasher films this game is based on and tries to emulate.

    You see it time and again this mentality where if you don't escape the game is ruined even if it was a rich full game where everyone participated right into the EGC and then died to something silly like NOED.

    If the killer was a really powerful computer and the game hard, people would probably relish the challenge, but because its another player they just get angry that someone else managed to kill them.

    Trying to balance around this 50/50 escape or die idea just feels like pandering to bad sports who value winning over playing. It undermines the horror element of the game in favour of PVP "fairness."

  • Munqaxus
    Munqaxus Member Posts: 2,752

    Do you seriously think a competitive gave where a single player getting 3 wins, while 3 players get 3 loses and another player gets 1 win is going fly with anyone except the person get 3 wins.

    Thing about it another way. 1 Team gets 3 wins every 4 games while 1 Team gets 3 loses every 4 games. Who in their right mind would play that game. Do you know of any competitive game that is that incredibly unfair?

  • VikingDragonXii
    VikingDragonXii Member Posts: 2,885

    Sadly that is a good theory but it crumbles at the state of the game, SWF Coms, Balance of Maps and Perks. 2K/2E would be a good thing if was actually obtainable without being sweaty or toxic. We are seeing more and more Survivors at lower skill levels knowing how to loop or how easy it is to ditch the Killer

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Personally yeah I would absolutely enjoy survivor more if killers felt more threatening.

    The point you make is exactly the point I'm making about interpreting wins. Because the killer is another player people want PVP fairness rather than asymmetric survival horror. The very nature of which undermines the horror element of the game.

    It also a good example of win loss perception. There is no real defined win/loss. You equate a 3K to 3 wins. This game is a team of 4 vs 1 so it could also be defined as a 3K is 1 win for killer and 1 loss for survivor.

    So as survivor you still win when people escape but its hard to conceptualize this as we think about it in the sense of 1v1, personal victory.

    To cater for people who think in the 1v1, in a 4v1 asymmetric game its balanced in a manner that undermines the game's very theme to preserve the fairness of 1v1 interactions. When in reality survivors should be screwed 1v1 with the killer and reliant on team to engineer escapes. That would be much more thematic and probably result in a 3k - 1E kind of balance rather than 50/50.

  • Lenox
    Lenox Member Posts: 234

    I don't fully understand if you're asking something, but I absolutely agree that survivor play can often be a relaxing experience. Lots of ups and downs in one match. While the killer experience is not chill at all and is stressful the entire match. But they have fast queues, unique powers, and more bloodpoints. Pros and cons.

  • Lenox
    Lenox Member Posts: 234

    I can't tell if it's sarcasm either. But it's one of the worst ideas I've read on these forums.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    The problem is, balancing around 75% kill rate, and not taking into account camping and tunneling would kill the game.

    If you die 3 out of 4 times, as a standard balance, how many times would that increase with those tactics.

    And who wants to play a game where you are 75% likely to end in defeat. Not to mention rng, teammates, etc.

    The reason 50% works, is because it provides both sides with some wiggle room and not a defeatist proposition.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    I know, right.

    Like killer would be so easy if it was "balanced" to give you a 3k from the start.

    Why would anyone want to play verses that?

    I mean, I get why you would want to play as it, with a guaranteed 3k.

  • ThiccBudhha
    ThiccBudhha Member Posts: 6,987

    It depends. I feel more stressed playing survivor, actually. Fighting for my survival with survivor mains as my only help is akin to literal torture.

  • Smuk
    Smuk Member Posts: 735

    It was just some opening philosophy and opening debate.

    As I also wonder, if every killer main would go into “chill mod” how would buffs and nerfs variate between sides.

    So technically, the more one side (obvious one) tries to master/do optimal plays, the harder it gets - balancing

  • pseudechis
    pseudechis Member Posts: 3,904

    Balancing around a 3K/1E does not guarantee a 3K, just as balancing around a 2K/2E doesn't guarentee a 2K/2E.

    Survivors have more wiggle room as you put it on the basis there are 4 of them vs 1 killer. The team element creates their wiggle room.

    Killer wiggle room is born of being overall stronger than a single survivor. So 1v1 killer should come out on top majority of the time.

    We would expect a higher than avreage kill rate representing good balance, skewed by how coordinated the survivor team was.

    If the game is balanced we should see slight over performance of killers given the assymetric 4v1 nature of the game that's reliant on (potentially random) team coordination on the survivor side.

    When they post stats they kinda show this in raw kill counts. However its always used as a negative to argue for killer nerfs

    The more they try to shift that number to a 50/50 result the more they have to buff survivors 1v1 making the game less assymetric survival horror and more e-sports loopy chase.

    The very argument that "no one would want to play a game where they had a 75% chance loss" is the very kind of thinking I'm talking about valuing winning over game experience.

    In an assymetric survival horror you should expect it to be hard to survive and easy to die otherwise its not survival horror its just blood tag with points farming and everybody gets a trophy day. I'm sorry but that's a mediocre game experience that flies in the face of the game's very theme.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    Nothing guarantees anything, but a 3k average indicates much more loses for survivors than wins.

    And, if you expect the majority of the player base to lose more than it wins, well longevity is not your main concern.

    Simply put, regardless of individual biases, survivors don't want to be solely playthings for a 75% kill rate.

    I'm pretty sure that's what the killer argument is now. No one wants to be a pawn.

    New killers being released assures new players enter the game.

    Survivors aren't showing up to face a new killer,killers are showing up to play a new killer. Behavior has a plan, and it's a classic business model. Create turnover and bring in new revenue.

    The rest is moot and subjective.

  • Lenox
    Lenox Member Posts: 234

    How new are you? I just hit 1,000 hours on PC Steam, for example.

    The hierarchy IMO is:

    New survivor is harder than new killer, which is harder than experienced killer, which is harder than experienced survivor?

    In other words, the hardest thing to be is a new survivor (extreme stress with heart pumping the whole match), but the easiest thing to be is an experienced survivor.

  • Lenox
    Lenox Member Posts: 234
    edited December 2021

    I wouldn't want to play games as killer with a 75% kill rate. I want to work for my kills. 2K feels good. 2K with 10 hooks and 2 injured survivors escaping is my ideal game.


    What exactly is chill mod? I don't have any add-ons for my game, so I might not be familiar. I've only really seen cosmetic mods. Like for perks and such.


    I was mostly in agreement with you until your last statement.

    It is hard to survive. It is easy to die. And I think it's a great experience.