Spirit is still very strong... then why is she suddenly a "rare" killer?
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Best said here.
Its like the nurse or billy nerfs, it killed off the players who wanted ez wins.
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The game is almost 6 years old and people still run in a straight line against nurse- people don't adapt. You shouldn't be able to react to a killer's power. DBD is a 1v4- the killer should hold the power in a chase. This idea that it needs to be on equal footing is absolute nonsense. You could outplay old spirit by making reads, as good players did. You shouldn't be able to always know what is coming next.
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It's probably mostly regression to the mean. Keep in mind there are 26 killers currently so the average pick rate for a given killer is 1 in 26 games. (Some are more, some less, but if you add everything up the average is 1/26). That means that unless a killer is particularly popular for whatever reason and you play 3 times a night you're not likely to see them more than once or twice every two weeks.
Spirit took a hit, no doubt, she's not at the top of the popularity charts now. But that doesn't mean she's trash or even that she's much below average in pick rates necessarily. For one thing she still has excellent map mobility and a catch up mechanic in chase which is always useful. And her speed when phased does still help her at loops because even if a survivor can hear her at the loop she can still use that to help mindgame which direction she's headed (sort of like using your red stain to help mindgame only with sound.) Plus as a bonus she has some good add-ons as well.
Basically there's a reason Otz and OhTofu both still have her as S Tier despite the nerf to her sound.
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Where in my post did I talk about equal footing? Nowhere, so try again. You're making your own nonsense up.
But to address the notion you're presenting, first off running straight against a Nurse is a viable strategy as keeping distance with her is the best way to delay her. Going for basic jukes only works so much against a very good nurse, which is what I'm assuming is my opponent nowadays. I don't get this critique of holding W against a killer that you literally cannot loop. Obviously doing it mindlessly is dumb.
I then have to ask why you think survivors aren't adapting after 6 years when the likely truth is that a lot of people aren't that experienced at the game. It's a casual fun game, a lot of people won't 'adapt' because this game is not worth any sort of hassle. Those that care do, just don't expect them to be some sort of norm, because it shouldn't be.
As for this 'read' argument. When it came to old spirit, it was a buzzword for 'guessing'. Let's not kid ourselves. One streamer abused that term because they foolishly compare DBD gameplay to another game genre where the premise is actually fully balanced with limited variables (fighting games), which isn't the case for DBD. You were guessing, comp players guessed and tried to bait sometimes, but Spirit was good against the best teams for a reason: She invalidated a lot of their acquired skills.
You should always be able to do SOMETHING as survivor, even if it's just delaying the killer. That SOMETHING should come from the skill you've acquired playing the game. Old Spirit didn't allow that for the most part. Current Spirit does but is very quick to punish for not reacting quickly and being very tactical about where you go.
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Purely holding forward against nurse without any attempt at faking is stupid- most don't know what they're doing.
The "casual game" idea is a black hole of logic. If it's just a casual game, these new players shouldn't mind if they lose since they are only playing for fun. The reality is that they want to win without having to try. Calling the game casual is an excuse to demand killer nerfs. I have never played a game that openly accepts the idea that you shouldn't have to learn to be successful. Only in DBD community.
Call me a hater if you want, but I find almost nothing skillful in survivor gameplay. The whole game is memorizing tiles and learning power specific counters-that's it. I have close to 3000 hours in this game. Throwing down a safe pallet isn't a skill. This is coming from someone who is competent at both roles.
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Let me just quote what I said about holding W vs nurse
>"Obviously doing it mindlessly is dumb."
There, no need to add that first sentence of yours, I said it for you already. I also explained why it was reasonable to do so to keep delaying her.
Calling the game casual is calling it for what it is. People play this game too much even though they remain casuals. And it's fine. It doesn't mean they want all killers nerfed, even if crybabies on the survivor side whine about as much as killer crybabies. Some people truly just don't find some killer designs fun, and I agree with some of them. The same is applicable to survivor tools. I've NEVER asked for a killer nerf in my posts here, yet I called this game casual. I did say Spirit's nerf was a good thing, but never once said I asked for it or thought it was done well. Ultimately she's still S tier so I can only assume people who aren't winning with her are just not very good.
I think you're outing yourself- Not as a Hater- but as a very bitter killer player (Not MAIN, just player, to avoid another strawman). Survivor takes skill like it does for killer, but unlike killer, it doesn't need to be re-learned for every killer and merely 'adjusted' depending on the killer they face. Is the skill requirement overall lower? Yes, you're just 1/4 of the team, so the expectations on you should be lower. You can be competent as both, but it doesn't mean you have the right perspective. I'm also good as both, and I'm disagreeing with you.
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people heard "nerf" and ran for the hills, regardless of how impactful it actually was. Its not the first time and it won't be the last.
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Memorization isn't skill; you can't compare survivor skill to killer skill. I have gone matches looping the killer across the entire map. This shouldn't be possible in a 4 v1 game.
It is incredibly obtuse to assert that Spirit is still S tier. People dropped her for a reason: she isn't strong anymore. People who aren't willing to learn should not have a say in game balance. Again, what game doesn't want you to invest time into learning and improving? That is a core part of video games and has been since the beginning. So yea, seeing killers get instantly nerfed but survivors getting to keep things like dead hard and god loops is pretty frustrating.
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Okay, so on the information available, Survivors can't see Spirit, but will hear any move she makes. Spirit can't see Survivors but can see scratchmarks , and will hear them if they run, or if there are grunts of pain. However, they can slow vault, walk, there's IW, etc. Ergo, the information asymmetry has reversed: Spirit now has less information whilst phasing when Survivors do. And that information is more than precise enough for the majority of difficult loops where you'd want to use a Killer's power anyway.
So what? Uh... it's dumb? "Hey we have a character who relies almost entirely on audio cues. Now we've nerfed her to be audible, should we change the audio perks again so this one perk doesn't negate their main tool entirely? Naaaah."
I didn't say holding W was a problem. People still hold W in a straight line against her and that's dumb. It's free hits which probably helps obfuscate the whole "only one side always gets accurate information" part.
And phasing isn't a counter to looping. Great, it's fast. Know what's faster than going around a big wall at somewhat-faster-than-the-game's-normal-speed? Vaulting it. "normal looping, but faster and you can't see" isn't a counter to it, it's the same dull I know you know I know that people like to claim is somehow fun, because they must also like watching paint dry.
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It takes a lot more for people to use her effectively now. You can't just pick her up and with a full meta build and absolutely demolish with her after watching a 10 minute guide on Spirit like you used to be able to. She has to work for her place in the top like other top-tier Killers, and not everyone enjoys that. (Which is a shame honestly.)
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I’ve never been very good with her. I think partially because I play on a tv with no headphones. She can be satisfying to play but I am lacking something when I play her. Maybe awareness? Been learning Billy lately. He’s fun. Might try spirit a bit more when I get done with him.
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To anyone that says Spirit is dead now: you need to adapt to the new Spirit if you haven’t. You’re probably still playing her like it’s prenerf Spirit and that’s not what you want to be doing. Please just practice her, learn how to adjust, and you’ll see she’s actually still very strong in the right hands.
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Because she isn't a free win anymore, for me the pre nerf spirit was better than nurse and a genuinely broken killer, now using her require some brain and skill.
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I strongely doubt the majority of players will ever return to her as long as her directional audio is left in i found her fun for her ability to jump scare but not anymore. I am sure down the line they may reduce or put her audio back to the old way if they see players no longer touching her. She is effectively dead at this point even tho she can still be played right and still is strong in the right hands
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Huntress has never been blatantly overpowered. She's always been strong, yes, and she had a broken add on combination, but outside of that combo she was popular regardless.
Huntress appeals to a different cohort of players. She's difficult to learn as she plays entirely differently to any other killer. She rewards high-skill plays and even if you aren't great at her and miss a lot of hatchets, the one that you do land will always feel satisfying. She's also good youtube/twitch bait because if you throw a potshot or two after BBQ, eventually you'll land one and people love to watch that happen.
It's originally based around Magic: The Gathering, but I'd recommend looking at the psychological profiles of players referred to as Timmy, Johnny and Spike, as they hold true in most games.
Spirit players in general were in the Spike category, who basically just plays what is strongest, which is why they had no loyalty to the character when the changes took her down a peg. Huntress is more of a Timmy, who likes to play strong things, but wants to play something showier, and cares more about the quality of the win than the quantity. You're probably right in that the people who played with iri heads will have stopped playing Huntress the same way Spirit players stopped, but that was never the majority of Huntress players.
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Honestly I now play more Spirit than before. Her add-ons feel interesting now when you recover your power after a stun, explode your husk or return to it. This gives her more of a fresh feeling than ever. The add-on pass was one of the best they made.
Also she can still work her magic in a chase especially on maps with grass. Sound becomes an issue very quickly with people running Iron Will every time but you can not fool the environment. That said this makes her very hard to play on maps without any grass, corn or other moving stuff.
I play her with Monitor and Abuse now as the shifting terror radius confuses the hell out of survivors and you can get your first hit more easy with it, saving your power for the second hit / Dead Hard. I still mostly use it in small bursts.
All that in consideration: Spirit is now more fun then ever for me. This is however highly subjective.
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It's only memorization if there's a gap in skill. Either the survivor is more auto-pilot and imitating what they've learned, which leads to an easy down, or they only have to do what they've memorized because the killer's skill is the one lacking. When things are more equalized, skill comes into play more often, and survivor actions do require skill to delay the killer as much as possible.
I mean it's my opinion and the opinion of those I watch and hang out with. It can be your opinion that she isn't. But by no means is it obtuse, and I don't think you understand what that words means by how you're using it here. To me she's S tier, as she has everything she needs to thrive: Mobility, chase power, snowball potential and reliability. Just because survivors have some hints as to what you're doing doesn't suddenly handicap you. It's like saying Blight isn't S tier because you can consistently tell what he's doing, which is true, but the player's skill (and addons sometimes) really determines the outcome here, with the survivor also having a say on the outcome with their own skill and game sense.
The reason why a lot of people dropped her: Same reason they dropped Freddy and Wraith, games aren't guaranteed wins for the most part.
Killers aren't JUST getting nerfed, they also get buffs, while survivors don't always get buffs. I will resonate the sentiment of DH and even CoH, they're terrible perks that do too much right now, but otherwise I feel you're falling in the trap of 'Killers are innocent victims, Survivors are undeserving persecutors'.
How is it less here? Survivors still make sounds when slow-vaulting, it's just more subtle. IW doesn't hide footsteps (Can bug out) or scratch marks. You still have plenty to work with as Spirit, while survivors just have some vague sound effect that is purposefully unprecise to not give out the Spirit's distance too easily. In the more generous of scenarios, you can say the information is equalized, even though I think it's still in the Spirit's favour when IW is in the picture. When it isn't she still has the odds stacked massively in her favour.
She doesn't ENTIRELY rely on sound cues. The best Spirits use her ability in short bursts to quickly close distances and put survivors in situations they can't win. Understanding survivor movement is also crucial to playing MOST killers, and Spirit benefits from this the most along with Nurse. There's more than one way to play Spirit, with the 'short burst' version I'm seeing more often being one that emphasizes just how strong her phasing speed is. Obviously this is more advanced that what the ex-Freddy mains can muster up.
You're right, holding W mindlessly is always bad against a high mobility killer. It's still sometimes the smartest move if you just want to delay the Spirit, but yes you are correct here.
First off, it's not 'somewhat faster than game's normal speed', she goes at 172% movement speed, which is definitely not marginal. Windows are not a counter to Spirit unless it's something like Haddonfield where she can't do anything against God Windows. Both Blight and Spirit use their speed to counter loops, and they're considered very strong killers (At least Blight is) because they do this well. Blight goes faster, but he's far more telegraphed than Spirit, who is invisible and her phase sound isn't precise enough for people to reliably react to all the time, and even if they do, it doesn't mean the Spirit can't pull something skilful of her own and win the interaction anyway.
But that's the issue, isn't it? No longer are things as free for Spirit. More elaborate tactics may be required to down more skilful survivors, and I feel like that's an issue for some. I still think she's S tier.
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Meanwhile I stood still yesterday in one of my matches and that Claudette vaulted into me.
I think she didn't read the last Mid Chapter notes.
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New Spirit has actually made me more inclined to play her, though her playstyle is not my cup of tea even with the changes.
People who have dropped her over the nerfs are just upset they are not handed easy downs on a silver platter, and good. Learning is a part of Dead by Daylight, and I am glad they can start doing that by learning a killer or two!
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The thing is that you're only looking at it from the perspective of picking the strongest thing and winning without taking pure, simple fun into account.
When Wraith got buffed, he suddenly rised up from irrelevancy and become popular, and while it's true that many people picked him because he was easy to use and pretty versatile like Freddy was, it's also because...zooming around, sneaking up on people and coming out with a long ass lunge was just fun. Wraith was simply more enjoyable to play than a lot of other killers, and when survivors started to complain about him because he became a noob stomper, the devs quickly came in and toned down the fun by nerfing his lunge.
The actual reason why killers often disappear from the game after getting nerfed, is because BHVR has the terrible mentality of only caring about making them easier to go against for survivors, which is the audience that just wants to see nerfs and doesn't care about playing them.
In the case of Spirit, they just made her less fun by making Stridor a useless perk and turning her invisibilty into a gimmick. I'm not saying she sucks now because for some reason they still let you use stuff like Ring + Cherry Blossom, but the point remains.
It's why i don't really blame 95+% of survivors for running Dead Hard to the point where it feels base kit; while it's so popular because it's a busted perk, it's also undeniable that unlocking a dodge ability is just fun.
Huntress is still popular because it's the rare case where they only looked at gutting two things and leaved everything else the exact same. If she would have got the Billy treatment, she would have disappeared as well.
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nobody plays her now because they cant get easy kills no more with her recent changes and stridor nerf.
i still 3-4k all day everyday.
gotta start listening to those footsteps and breathing =D
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All of the very good Spirit mains are still really good after the small nerfs, it's only the bad Spirits that had to move to Pinhead or something
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The people who played old spirit/ buffed wraith/forever freddy are not playing Current Pinhead I can promise you that
Afk chain hunts do not happen as frequently as people suggest
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