Community tried to tell devs SWF is OP. Everybody who plays this game knows that
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What's of concern is the repeated statements that the clear intent is to buff Solo Q survivors but never any mention of addressing killers - given how long it takes to get anything positive done on the killer side (well done on the Nurse fixes after only 3 years!) if Killers aren't buffed at the same time as Solo Q then the current bad situation will only get worse.
And by "buff" I don't mean "add 1% to addons that are not used because they're garbage".
Just my 2c worth.
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SWF is not just OP, its cheating imo. Do you think its fair that 4 survs who have a total of 16 perks between them and a hivemind against ONE killer is realistically fair?? No! They all communicate and act like ONE entity the entire game. Taking turns on hooks, flashlight bullying, and Tbagging at the exit gates at the end of EVERY match. Its broken and unfair. I honestly think with all the playing I have done in this game, that they need to balance it back out. Killers are 1 against 4 people who can crash Gens out of a game in seriously no time at all regardless of killer set up. I am running ( on Legion ) Hex: Pem, DL, Than, and ruin. ITS STILL NOT ENOUGH!! Games are too fast and survs no longer fear any killers at all. DH is OP, but SWF is over the top.
Killers need 6 perk slots to make things a bit more competitive. Not every killer should feel like that have to be a pro/ veteran to get 1 kill a match.
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You should probably play a bit more to get a better grip on the game.
Or play less, it seems to rile you up in a bad way.
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I appreciate you addressing Circle of Healing here. A lot of people (including myself) were really frustrated that it wasnโt addressed at all in recently developer updates. All the people who had been providing feedback about it felt ignored. I wish there would have been at least some mention of it in the dev updates - even something similar to what you just posted here like โwe hear you, we just arenโt ready to make changes yet.โ I think that would have gone a long ways in preventing some of the anger thatโs popped up on the forums in the past couple of days.
Anyway, thanks for providing some comments about it.
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For me the most OP thing of SWF is not the voice coms (the most repeated reason of people complaining about SWF), is the possibility of having 16 meta perks equiped.
That's the reason why in most DBD tournaments one of the rules is not repeating perks.
ย ยฏ\_(ใ)_/ยฏ
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It would've taken so little effort to just put in a line like: "And don't worry about all these possible survivor buffs, killer players; as solo survivors get more tools, we're also looking at ways to help you deal with highly successful SWF groups as well."
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I mean in any PVP game that has teams if the team is in a party they will most likely have a higher chance of performing good and achieving the goal cause you know...they can organize and coordinate their plays lol I don't really get the complaints about it cause it's pretty obvious and for any team PVP game, I'm sure the devs have known this since day 1
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I was told by the designer who was in charge of adjusting Freddy that him being easy is not the reason for his high kill rate, but I could not agree. The reason why the Nurse is so low is because human error is an extremely common factor in how successful player are with her, as you said, whereas Freddy, who was weaker than a Nurse at her MAXIMUM potential (and that may or may not be something indicated by your data collection), was performing the best out of all characters because of his power level and ease of use.
Wouldn't the objectively better solution for "too easy for the level of strength" be to make a character harder, not weaker? If you make more room for error, then a killer will always be weaker on average statistically, which would allow for more interaction between survivor and killer and force players to improve at the character to reach his maximum potential. That's not what happened, though.
Why directly weaken rather than introduce more room for error? Changes of either nature can be mutually exclusive.
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Maybe balancing considering the high level players is not good, but balancing considering only the noobs (as they seems to do) is even worse.
The results of balancing considering only the noobs:
- The pig and Freddy being gutted (the two classical noob stomper killers) someone can say Billy, but he's still good with proper addons.
- Broken maps, some with an huge amount of pallets (Mostly Gideon meat plant) and others with overwhelming loops and chained conections between loops, pallets, jungle gyms, T-walls, infinites... (Badham, Haddonfield, Mother Dwelling, Eyrie of crows sometimes, Fractured Cowshed and Ormond mostly) The noobs need a lot of pallets and pallets conected with structures and windows for not being downed quickly, but any survivor with ONLY 200-300 hours already know how to exploit them, and a survivor with that amount of hours is not exactly a pro, imagine one with 2.000+ hours.
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Aside from the negativity, it was obvious something was needed to close the gaps between solo survivors and groups. Have any devs expressed a concern that elevating survivors, even a tiny amount, could put more stress on the killer role? Iโm all about helping solo q as I play solo but Iโm worried the ability for all survivors to inherently know what the others are doing could put more strain on an, at times, already strained role.
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Just wanted to add my two cents into this discussion. @Peanits I really like how in depth you responded to questions around the patch notes. This is the kind of engagement the community desperately needs from folks such as yourself. I can only speak to my own experiences, but a common thread in patch note complaints seems to be "they are ignoring X, they don't care"! Posts like yours included in the patch notes themselves would go a long way to help people feel like they are being listened too. Your posts feel like they are from an actual person, not a paid spokesperson. We need that, on top of more communication. Something as simple as showing the actual numbers behind why you changed something will go a long way towards restoring community trust. As it is right now, Behavior seems to be insisting that the player base trust them, when that trust has been betrayed in the past. Looking back, there are a litany of things that were promised by Behavior via employees that were in the know, only to have said promises be seemingly forgotten. Further more, things that rankle the community, ie. DH, DS, NOED, genspeed, map imbalance etc are rarely even acknowledged. You don't have to "fix" everything the community labels a problem, but at least acknowledge that you are listening to them. This isn't even going into things that are actively harming both players and your bottom line, like hackers modding in paid dlc.
I know that there is only so much you can do about the many challenges that come with running an asymmetrical game like DBD. Behavior has created something truly special here. The amount of vitriol you receive is proof of how much people care about the health of your title! Even if you cannot disclose exact details or solutions in development, just saying that you brought it up to the folks with the power to make an impact will help massively.
Good Luck in the Fog
- - a DBD player
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Ehhh... I'm skeptical of that design philosophy, because the 'this power is too easy, make it harder' changes lead to things like Billy's overheat and Deathslinger losing ADS. Maybe even Twins and their giant mound of stuns, though I'm less certain what exactly was behind that. Still. It's historically translated to anti-QoL that made the killer much less attractive and I can't say I want to see any more of that.
Some mechanics are simpler than others and are going to be easier to use as a result, and you'd have to majorly fiddle with a character's identity to introduce room for error at all. Wraith will never take as much skill as Huntress because he doesn't have to consider throw arcs and predict survivor trajectories, he just runs up behind you and uncloaks. There's only like two ways he can screw that up and he'll figure both of them out the first time they happen, because they're binary 'don't do this when the survivor is doing that' situations. Plague's power is a constant jumble of decisionmaking dependent on survivor playstyle and her current info and she can fail very badly if the player doesn't know how to react to what's happening. Trapper's skill cap involves predicting not only survivor movements, but the direction survivors will come around structures and what their field of view will be in order to place the traps that will be most likely to catch people off guard - but at the same time, he doesn't do that much worse if you just trap the obvious windows and doorways, and his performance is always going to be marred by RNG and the X-factor of survivor attentiveness. Blight requires a great deal of experience and map-specific hitbox familiarity to be able to bounce and hug when he wants to and where he wants to. Then you've got Bubba, who just needs to learn how close he can skate to a wall before he hits it and he's good to go on most maps.
I don't see how you could make all of these killers' skill ceilings anywhere near each other. In theory, what you're suggesting sounds nice, but in practice, I'm not seeing it.
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SWF isn't OP.
Just because they perform better than SoloQ does not make it OP. Just means that they are actually doing gens/being efficient and not wasting time crouching and hiding the whole game.
Way to misinterpret data given to you.
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Honestly glacially slow obvious changes are kind of this dev teams MO. I'm not sure if the company is too bloated to make quick and nimble decisions or if the skillset required to code and design games overlaps with being an alien but whatever it is it has been 6 yrs with no signs of speeding up.
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That would involve having killers keep their high skill ceiling. Or skill required for the amount of reward on return. IMO more killers need to be like nurse. Where it requires a high amount of skill to get the maximum potential and just shred the hell out of people. But they keep nerfing those aspects. Not only that, but for killers who actually require a decent amount of skill they find ways to nerf them so the time you spend learning the damn thing and fine tuning it doesn't pay off. If I spent 500 hours learning nurse. And then spent 500 hours learning Pinhead <---I've literally cut my life short for no reason spending all that time learning pinhead when his skill cap is high, but they keep nerfing his payout. And the guy just came out not too long ago..... same thing with blight, players learn a skill, spend 100s of hours to learn and perfect a killer then they go...."nah"...and then just drop their skill cap outta nowhere. They did it with Blight, They did it with Oni, they did it with Hillbilly, they did it with Pinhead, and did it with Slinger and spirit repeatedly. So they don't want you making precision turns with your mouse, they don't want you quick scoping, they don't want you mind gaming, it feels like they don't want killers to think. They just want us to walk around in this cage of limitations like robots waiting for cooldowns like we're playing some mmorpg with global cooldowns between casts. GCD when you miss, GCD when you hit, GCD to kick a gen, GCD when you hit someone but didn't actually hit someone cause hit validation says no and you get stunned anyway.
Wanna be stealthy and use your brain to come up with witty ways to capture survivors, NO. Survivors need to have all the information in the game. Devs apparently think, survivors need to know where you are, need to know if you're using your power even if you aren't anywhere near them, need to know that a hex is in play, etc. Its too much hand holding, both on killer and survivor side. And because of all that free information and hand holding we get garbage for horror elements. It literally kills the mood. I haven't even been able to put together a jump scare compilation in over a year because people just aren't immersed into the game. Its all UI and huge Tells. They even tell you what killer you're up against in the loading screen. Theres no mystery, theres no high skill caps, its just info leaks and survivors running around not feeling threatened in the slightest to even hide because the game gets dumbed down so much. If I had one wish for this game that would be it....just increase killer skill caps so it doesn't feel like we're running around hamstringed all the time by mechanics and bad hit validation and give us the payoff for actually learning and improving our skills. We only get 7 minutes in most cases to make 24 hits (32 for Nemesis) and 12 hooks to completely 4k a game. But given the games current state survivors complete damn near 50% of the objective in the first 2 minutes. Then you have killers who just can't perform because their kit only allows so much pressure. Its a mess and its been a mess for years. It used to be, "oh you can get away with running just 1 generator protection perk and be fine. Now people are running 3 to 4. Theres more second chance perks than ever. More healing perks than ever even after they did a pass to balance healing. And we still have to deal with perks and add ons that have little to no impact on a games outcome...
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Mad. Respect.
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Now first of all I agree with some points you make.
Removing difficult mechanics that are rewarding to learn (Oni, Blight, Billy) is just bad. The goal should be to get you to play more to learn those mechanics and get better with them. However then you have survivors crying about how this mechanic is "unfun" like with the Artist now. Her crows allow some very fancy stuff and you as a survivor can make quit some fancy plays to evade them. What do the most vocal survivors say: Broken Killer, just hold W, no need to adapt.
And yes, there is too much handholding without any investment. If you invest in something via a perk it is okay. A Killer using Discordance makes an investment and gets to see how this plays out. Survivor can even figure out you have Discordance by your behavioure and try to play around it. This is good design in my opinion.
Same with boons: Survivors make an investment and get a reward. The Killer can make an investment to negate that reward. This mechanic in itself if no problem for me. The problem comes from the investment both sides have to make and that is does not add up.
Second change perks are also fine, depending on how you do them: Lithe is amazing if used correctly and can extend a chase for quit some time. A Dead Hard through the Killer to bamboozle him or to safe your friend with a flashlight might feels bad for the Killer but is a very cool situation for the survivor and honestly a great moment in the game. Dead Hard for distance on the other hand is pretty lame.
But please consider that many design choices need tons of time to be implemented. Devs can do stuff but they need time. Look at the new wiggle mechanic: Good stuff, you get a reward for good skillchecks, it is more interactive than button mashing and looks fancy. Yet it took them quit some time to get it ready and they were only able to announce it a day before they released it. This show how much work needs to be done in the background.
This difficulty makes it hard for fast changes to occure. The players are now way better than back then. But they are fast than the devs in exploiting new things.
The devs already removed tons of bad stuff from the game. Remember true infinites, old Deceisive Strike, the feeling of being exhaused on the ground after Dead Hard? Gone for good and I am not mad about it...keeping up with us as players is just hard because we are fast.
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I honestly agree, SWF just increases the likelihood of coordination. Good survivors are good. Bad survivors are bad. I SWF and get destroyed because we aren't coordinating, we are just playing together for fun. I do better solo because I know I have to do so much more if I want to escape. Lol.
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Miss your streams man. Now that you don't stream and McLean isn't a dev I feel like we don't have a place to have productive discussions with devs on things like game balance and bugs that didn't devolve into the garbage that the forums are known for like "devs are trash, devs are x sided, personal attacks against the devs, etc." In the interest of transparency, it might be worth hiring someone to stream who can clarify the devs' positions, and priorities and explain processes to people who might not know them, and get direct feedback on balance ideas and bugs that the team may not know about. I'm not sure that the forums are really all that productive anymore...
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Clarification: It's 30 seconds of immunity if woken through an alarm clock, not 60 seconds. 60 seconds is the total duration a survivor is awake until they fall asleep.
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Give me a Survivor SWF sweaty Meta team clicky clicky team any time. Awesome fun - Pinhead Red cube and broken tooth, even more fun.
I'll get 32,000 points, even if a couple actually escape. Pinhead can be really OP again any sweaty SWF. The sweatier the better, get em on a scrouge hook, explode a gen, pickup the Cube, and rinse and repeat.
Last survivor - if I can't locate them, I go to the bathroom lol they can leave. I still get my +2.
And then there is the Artist - Hex pentimento, and three other Hex totems, keep em busy with totems while I Hi-jack the gens (with the 4 crow addon) SWFs have no chance.
I normally get over 30,000 point and good SWF get over 25,000 - everybody is happy.
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By the end of the day. Will SBMM actually provide steady matches without fluctuations on either side.
Skill cannot be measured by MMR.
Therefore one match can be 4K and the other 4E. And there will be a limbo
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I only started playing with more than one person I know in actual life in the last month or so.
We aren't toxic and don't go out of way to antagonise the killer and make their experience miserable...like many of these tiresome "LiKe AnD suBsCribe!" streamers do.
That being said, I am fully behind the belief that SWF salt squads have ruined DBD as a killer.
Honestly, I only play killer to get Adepts and other challenges. Majority of the time it's a painful experience.
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SWF is not cheating and please stop saying that it is, because it has been confirmed by the people that confirm what is/isn't cheating that it is not, in fact, cheating.
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You are genuinely surprised that there are people who dont react well to this new revelation?
Your lead game designer told people years ago to go play Civilization as a response to someone bringing up general balancing problems.
Another Dev literally acknowledged on video that the game is unbalanced and he didnt care about it AT ALL.
He event went as far as to mock the person who brought up the issue.
Both instances are on video and can be found with a simple google search.
THAT is why people react the way they do. Think about it.
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When did they ever say the new UI changes were only going to apply to solos? My understanding is that they were going to buff all survivors. (Meaning, they're doing something about the escape rate difference, not SWFs being overpowered.)
They can't really do anything about SWFs being overpowered without ruining it for solos or else getting rid of SWFs altogether, which isn't an option. But they're going to buff solos so they're just as hard to deal with?
My prediction is that a lot of killers try to intentionally derank. And that'll stop working eventually, because there will be too many high-ranked survivors and not enough killers at the same level, which will just lead to a lot of killers ragequitting or switching to survivor.
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Did you know the creator of Space Invaders canโt get past level two of Space Invaders.
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@Peanits I find the excuse about boons invalid.
Both sides agree that boons, particular coh needs number tweaked.
Yes you added boons as new mechanic to waste time on. More time was wasted by wounding survivors and making them regroup.
Bigger issue than reblessing or anything is, that the boons work as a sphere or cylinder or which ever shape.
Where boons in indoor maps or in as example badham basement create boon radius way to strong.
So going down to basement to destroy boon and head upstairs it looses too much time regarding gens. It will also be blessed in a next minute.
So what is more effective than searching the boons? Tunneling out Mikaela, no more boons and pinch of salt in endgame chat
Tweaking boon range, removal of multi level effect and reducing or removing bonus % to healing would not be harsh but realistic tweak to monitor onward. But leaving it in broken state and brainstorming how to nerf twins addons even more. Is just funny. I dont honestly know which spirit animal represents bhvr
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Typical noob shooting the invaders at the bottom instead of the sides.
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It may be an overall buff to all survivors, but solos will feel the effects substantially more than SWF will. SWF already have this information for free, and therefore giving it to them in a slightly different format means nothing,
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Abstract: few player base and fast matchmaking
I've playing matchmaking games for like 15 years pra so and experienced both nice and awful situations.
The most balanced game o experienced was Dota2 between 2015~17
Average Queuee time was 30 minutes and there was lots and lots of players. It was the "Golden age of dota 2"
There is a specific reason why mmking sucks, its because que dont have players enought.
Of course dbd has high absolute player numbers but its Very hard to match combine 1,2,3 and 4 players players party at similar skills.
And dbd is not a game that wellcoming for New players, the game os imbalanced by definition.
So se cant have both fast Q and good mmking because of the number of players + possibility of 1,2,3 and 4 players party
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It'll speed them up slightly.
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COH is obviously a big problem for this game. We know it, you know it. But bigger problem is you waiting for perfect solution, leaving game in unbalanced state for months or even years. Gathering data is great but we need quick changes for obvious problems. You can change COH based on you feeling of the game and then gather data and make perfect change later.
I understand Freddy fiasco made you afraid of making quick changes but we're talking about a single perk, not a whole killer power. That shouldn't be a problem
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Since you're being transparent (thx btw) could you shed some light on how you determine someone's skill in game?
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Pretty sure it was confirmed to go off of Kills and Escapes exclusively.
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Killers are the fun toys of survivors, do you really think Behavior cares about killers?
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But it ends up being 90 seconds minimum before they fall asleep again. That is way too long considering the average game lasts about 10 minutes or less.
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Hi, I've been playing for a while, mainly killer due to the fact that playing as a survivor in this game is so hard.
Please note I'm only speaking from my own perspective when I say this.
SURVIVOR: I don't play with friends except for very rarely, as for me it actually ruins the immersion factor. For me, playing a survivor, I'm supposed to have the information available to me from my perks and that's it. So having a friend telling me from the other side of the map what the killer is doing is just wrong! I actually discussed this with the people I do occasionally play with, and we don't do that any longer, which everyone has found to be an improvement in the level of enjoyment. Does it make things harder? Absolutely, but I'll take fun over an easy win any day. In fact, I think I've managed to escape only a handful of times from the last 50ish matches, whether solo (95% of the time) or as a duo.
KILLER: Playing against swf teams becomes apparent very early into the match, and certainly lowers my enjoyment of the match. I also find the swf teams engaging in toxic activities far more often, unfortunately. And I use that term based off what I've seen on Discord. It certainly is very disheartening when it happens, and when it happens a few times back to back I go looking for a different game to play.
My personal opinion is that swf is massively detrimental to the game, both from a solo survivor and a killer perspective. An interesting suggestion which I made to my friends and who also thought it was a great idea, was that if survivors were communicating with each other, then the killer should be able to listen in (but not communicate back), so the communication becomes the survivors "shouting" to each other, which the killer can obviously hear.
Thanks ๐
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Can you give some insight on the Killers fun? It seems like you're only focusing on Survivors ability to face certain Killers (Nurse and Freddy), and Killers skill level playing Killers, but not about the real issue everyone is talking about. That playing Killer isn't fun even when you are doing well.
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fyi, it's a game director who said the civilization response and he also apologized for saying it afterwards in a blog post on steam
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/381210/view/4040248138379018832
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Camp one to death and get another one with Noed. That is how the 50% happen lul
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If SWF is the only way to possibly escape, then SWF is not OP. Perhaps SWF is actually balanced and Solo is brokenly underpowered.
You know this because the devs are actually trying to buff the solo gameplay, when it has never needed that previously.
Furthermore, if a solo lobby directly depends on a very low skilled killer making many mistakes in order for some to escape, then there is a huge problem with balance. Killers need nerfing or survivors in general need buffing. I'm sure devs looking at stats and anyone playing a few games of solo matches will confirm this.
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Ahhhh so not actual match performance. Glad to see my tunnelling noed face camp bubba makes me extremely skilled
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Yes, just like the Claudette who did nothing the whole game but snuck her way out the Exit Gate door is rewarded.
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I love how split this conversation was once a dev commented lol
There was half the people who were like, "Aww, a little dev, let's be as nice as possible."
And then the other half was like, "kill it with fire!"
๐๐๐ Like there was very little in between. There were a few who were like, I respect your opinion, but I'm gonna keep mine. But the rest just started blurting out all the stuff they hated like @Peanits is gonna magically solve their problems because they're complaining.
I don't mind complaining, but give the guy a little slack lol
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Bruh thats a sick skilled legendary claudette.....
-_-
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You know what is crazy tho. A few years ago i mentioned it in a stream of a dev. Peanits laughed at me. Its actually very amusing that he is having to post this. Ha. (He may have forgotten. But i never forget)
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hey i was grateful while trying to make valid points. lol I understand how hard design is. just wish they listened to killers more.
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To be entirely fair to Peanitus, I believe he was talking primarily about basekit strength vs skill in the point of Freddy vs Nurse. If memory serves correctly, Pinhead has only recieved a few add-on tweaks, and not a major, base-kit nerf like Freddy recieved. I don't think the two are entirely comparible in this instance.
(Pinhead's changes actually fall in line with how they've been balancing a lot of Killers recently where they'll usually go for a few add-on tweaks at first and change things later down the line as needed.)
Also, unrelated to your response specifically, but man I'm hapoy they are finally fixing some Nurse bugs. Tbh, it's my favorite part about the patch.
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I am not saying solely balance around any player experience level, just to include all of the playerbase in decision-making that's all.
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